Conservative Boast

[Akita Suggagaki]

I just asked in OP because that is what I see on add. Conservatives boasting about it and Liberals quiet about it.

But it is an age old divide. I think most evident to us since the renaissance and the challenges to orthodoxy from science and higher scripture analysis.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

A Biblical morality as in condemning others while neglecting justice.

Justice being what in this instance? I'm somewhat confused about the moral and social vision that you have for society. Is it to move towards Christian norms or should we move away from those norms?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

And conservatives are lily white? Morality also involves how one lives not just what one professes.

Progressive liberals tend to believe individuals should live however they want so long as they don't violate the no harm principle? What room for morality is in that equation?

 

[Palmfever]

Google.

OK

Lets look at family.

Conservatives see mom at home, dad working and a couple of straight kids,

Liberals see maybe mom doing the main breadwinning, or maybe not even married or married to someone same sex. Or dad also doing his own thing. Kids? Maybe some gender identity issues. Liberals ok with all that/conservatives having a fit.

I haven't used Google in forever. Wow I can't believe people actually consider them to be a valid source of information pertaining to righteousness.
I'm conservative, not a Trumper.
In todays world Both people work. Sane children are a bonus.
Your comment, God has issues with. Gender confusion. Celebrating sodomite pride a month every year. I personally know a couple queers, nice guys.
What is it about some libs, Christian in name only, they believe they have some moral high ground because they condone unnatural behavior as God refers to it? Read the last scripture in Romans 1. "Not only those that do such things are worthy of death, also those that agree with or condone it.
Yeah I guess libs are okay with it. I didn't realize blindness was so pervasive in the 'Church.' Satan really has taken many captive at his will.
It brings to mind these words of Christ;
John, 16:1-3 “These things I have spoken to you so that you will not be led into sin. 2 They will ban you from the synagogue, yet an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering a service to God. 3 These things they will do because they have not known the Father nor Me."

 

[bèlla]

I don't use the term. On some issues I'm conservative and others less so and that isn't fixed. Circumstance may requirement movement in either direction and pigeonholing is counterproductive. I don't identify with either movement or political entity and view them as impediments to unity and the furtherance of the nation.

~bella

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Justice being what in this instance? I'm somewhat confused about the moral and social vision that you have for society. Is it to move towards Christian norms or should we move away from those norms?

Here is where the question really is: What are "Christian norms"?


They would seem to me to include:

Care for the poor and vulnerable, especially children
Seeking peace
Love on another
Be honest
Forgive others
Visit the sick feed the hungry clothe the naked
Repent
Don't judge others
Love your enemies
Render unto Caesar


What other Christian norms do we want to see in our society?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I haven't used Google in forever. Wow I can't believe people actually consider them to be a valid source of information pertaining to righteousness.

Google is a search engine that quickly provides and adequate summary of anything searched. It is an affective tool. But like anything on the web, it must be used with caution and even some skepticism.

I'm conservative, not a Trumper.
In todays world Both people work. Sane children are a bonus.

It is unfortunate but yes, quite often both parents must work. That is not likely to change soon. As to mental health of children, growing up has always been a challenge. And now "entertainment" is basically a mental cesspool.

Your comment, God has issues with.

? I don't recall or see that comment.

Gender confusion. Celebrating sodomite pride a month every year. I personally know a couple queers, nice guys.

What is going on here is that people with gender confusion or homosexuality have been ostracized, outlawed and persecuted for so long that their self image is tattered. Perhaps since the 60's there has been an effort to accept one's self as is. Naturally, religion has played a damning role so we can see why a Biblical morality is discarded. I have been fortunate enough to not be very touched by the gender stuff. I have not had to deal with the dilemmas.

What is it about some libs, Christian in name only,

That is a harsh blanket judgment.

they believe they have some moral high ground because they condone unnatural behavior as God refers to it? Read the last scripture in Romans 1. "Not only those that do such things are worthy of death, also those that agree with or condone it.
Yeah I guess libs are okay with it. I didn't realize blindness was so pervasive in the 'Church.

It always has been pervasive in the church and in many ways. Especially pointing out the speck in another's eyes while having a log in one's own.

' Satan really has taken many captive at his will.
It brings to mind these words of Christ;
John, 16:1-3 “These things I have spoken to you so that you will not be led into sin. 2 They will ban you from the synagogue, yet an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering a service to God. 3 These things they will do because they have not known the Father nor Me."

Well there you have it. Knowing The Father and Jesus is not a political left/right, conservative/progressive issues. Rather it is about sincerity, seeking and loving. That is not to say there are no moral norms. But we all have our struggles and focusing on the struggles and failures of others is not something Jesus told us to do. But again, that is something both the right and the left do.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

In politics, researchers usually define “conservativism” as a general tendency to resist change and tolerate social inequality. “Liberalism” means a tendency to embrace change and reject inequality.

Psychologists have long suspected that a few fundamental differences in worldviews might underlie the conservative-liberal rift. Forty years of research has shown that, on average, conservatives see the world as a more dangerous place than liberals do. This one belief seemed to help explain many American conservative stances in policy disagreements, such as support of gun ownership, border enforcement, and increased spending on police and the military—all of which, one can argue, are meant to protect people from a threatening world.

But new research by psychologist Nick Kerry and me at the University of Pennsylvania contradicts that long-standing theory. We find instead that the main difference between the left and the right is whether people believe the world is inherently hierarchical. Conservatives, our work shows, tend to believe more strongly than liberals in a hierarchical world, which is essentially the view that the universe is a place where the lines between categories or concepts matter. A clearer understanding of that difference could help society better bridge political divides.

Many Differences between Liberals and Conservatives May Boil Down to One Belief

Conservatives tend to believe that strict divisions are an inherent part of life. Liberals do not

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

BTW, I am working through all this only to better understand my own views. In some ways I am liberal and in some ways I am conservative. I don't see either as something to boast about.

On something like LGBTQ rights and pride, etc. I see fallen people struggling with specific gender related dysfunction. I don't bring my religion into judging them. That does not mean I support their "sinful" acts and lifestyle if they live their inclinations out. Does that make me conservative or liberal? I don't know. It is not important. My own need for repentance is just as great as any of theirs. The y don't need me as another voice telling them how bad they are.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Here is where the question really is: What are "Christian norms"?


They would seem to me to include:

Care for the poor and vulnerable, especially children
Seeking peace
Love on another
Be honest
Forgive others
Visit the sick feed the hungry clothe the naked
Repent
Don't judge others
Love your enemies
Render unto Caesar


What other Christian norms do we want to see in our society?

The problem of course being that you would interpret those values through a progressive lens and ignore other Christian norms. Previously we discussed pornography which you at first were unable to define or had any Idea what it was. You then said it was dehumanizing and evil and yet justified it's existence under a supposed right to freedom of speech. At least that's what I recall. In your vision of a secular humanist society where religion is relegated to the margins but which truly represents a Christian vision of society, why would you support something as dehumanizing as pornography?

Why are these values the ones we might implement with power but other Christian values are not? That is, you would tax people and increase social spending to help the poor, yet that at the end of the day is done through the power of the state threatening to imprison productive people who pay taxes.

A society which has Christian norms would be marked by a common moral vision and what we value, in marriage, in what is accepted and what is tolerated. We don't live in a Christian society anymore. As a progressive liberal would you be opposed to the institution of Christian values like a rejection of LGBT into law and society? Or are you for LGBT being recognized?

 

[Palmfever]

Google is a search engine that quickly provides and adequate summary of anything searched. It is an affective tool. But like anything on the web, it must be used with caution and even some skepticism.

It is unfortunate but yes, quite often both parents must work. That is not likely to change soon. As to mental health of children, growing up has always been a challenge. And now "entertainment" is basically a mental cesspool.

? I don't recall or see that comment.

What is going on here is that people with gender confusion or homosexuality have been ostracized, outlawed and persecuted for so long that their self image is tattered. Perhaps since the 60's there has been an effort to accept one's self as is. Naturally, religion has played a damning role so we can see why a Biblical morality is discarded. I have been fortunate enough to not be very touched by the gender stuff. I have not had to deal with the dilemmas.


That is a harsh blanket judgment.

It always has been pervasive in the church and in many ways. Especially pointing out the speck in another's eyes while having a log in one's own.

Well there you have it. Knowing The Father and Jesus is not a political left/right, conservative/progressive issues. Rather it is about sincerity, seeking and loving. That is not to say there are no moral norms. But we all have our struggles and focusing on the struggles and failures of others is not something Jesus told us to do. But again, that is something both the right and the left do.

Most of what you've said in this reply is true. The following statement may be also. It is however incorrect as a philosophy.

What is going on here is that people with gender confusion or homosexuality have been ostracized, outlawed and persecuted for so long that their self image is tattered. Perhaps since the 60's there has been an effort to accept one's self as is.

God accepts us as we are. True.
He also demands immediate change. We are to be conformed into His image not our own. Those who wish to be accepted as they are and are opposed to Him, those who believe they can live after the flesh stomping those little feet and demanding acceptance for ungodly behavior are on a highway to hell. We do them no favor when we soft peddle the truth. That is not love, that is watching a child playing in a freeway 1 second from being destroyed and telling ourselves how much we loved them and what good kids they were. Convincing ourselves that they were misunderstood we blow some smoke about them being in a better place. They are not. And we are culpable. While confidence in God first and ourselves as we continually position ourselves to align with His image is healthy. Confidence in ourselves apart from God is a ticket to the lake of fire.

That is a harsh blanket judgment.

Scripture is harsh. I love you, accept my gift or burn.

I am accustomed to some who either ignore scripture or don't know it, using the, "Don't judge" blather. WE ARE TO JUDGE THOSE IN THE CHURCH. We are to encourage, and rebuke.
Pro, 27:5
Open rebuke is better than secret love.
6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
Paul shames the church at Corinth for their acceptance of some guy hooking up with his Fathers wife, not hooking up with his husband.
1 Cor 5:1
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and sexual immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, namely, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to turn such a person over to Satan for the destruction of his body, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
Romans 1:24
Therefore God gave them up to vile impurity in the lusts of their hearts, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for falsehood, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged natural relations for that which is contrary to nature, 27 and likewise the men, too, abandoned natural relations with women and burned in their desire toward one another, males with males committing shameful acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

Acceptance of queers is fine. Acceptance of and agreement with the lifestyle is not. Lot was surrounded by them. So he must have done business with them and even had friends among them, he did not agree with them

2 Peter, 2:8For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds.
If some desire to live in sin that's their option. I have grandchildren in grade 5 and 6. When they inculcate them in the path to destruction I absolutely resist. What is worse however is the chorus of horsepucky spewing from the mouths of alleged believers in agreement.

I believe you believe, so if if you don't include yourself in that deception neither do I.

Gotta go. Will review with corrections later.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The problem of course being that you would interpret those values through a progressive lens and ignore other Christian norms. Previously we discussed pornography which you at first were unable to define or had any Idea what it was. You then said it was dehumanizing and evil and yet justified it's existence under a supposed right to freedom of speech. At least that's what I recall. In your vision of a secular humanist society where religion is relegated to the margins but which truly represents a Christian vision of society, why would you support something as dehumanizing as pornography?

Can you define or qualify exactly what is and is not pornography so that it can be banned? I do not support it but I also do not know how to deal with it. Certainly we can protect children but adults have freedom.

Why are these values the ones we might implement with power but other Christian values are not? That is, you would tax people and increase social spending to help the poor, yet that at the end of the day is done through the power of the state threatening to imprison productive people who pay taxes.

What productive tax payers? Are they breaking the law?

A society which has Christian norms would be marked by a common moral vision and what we value, in marriage, in what is accepted and what is tolerated. We don't live in a Christian society anymore. As a progressive liberal would you be opposed to the institution of Christian values like a rejection of LGBT into law and society? Or are you for LGBT being recognized?

The view you present on LGBTQ is based on religious beliefs. Is it not? We live in a pluralistic society where your and my personal religious beliefs are not shared by others. We cannot and ought not expect others to comply with our religious beliefs.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Most of what you've said in this reply is true. The following statement may be also. It is however incorrect as a philosophy.

What is going on here is that people with gender confusion or homosexuality have been ostracized, outlawed and persecuted for so long that their self image is tattered. Perhaps since the 60's there has been an effort to accept one's self as is.

God accepts us as we are. True.
He also demands immediate change. We are to be conformed into His image not our own. Those who wish to be accepted as they are and are opposed to Him, those who believe they can live after the flesh stomping those little feet and demanding acceptance for ungodly behavior are on a highway to hell. We do them no favor when we soft peddle the truth. That is not love, that is watching a child playing in a freeway 1 second from being destroyed and telling ourselves how much we loved them and what good kids they were. Convincing ourselves that they were misunderstood we blow some smoke about them being in a better place. They are not. And we are culpable. While confidence in God first and ourselves as we continually position ourselves to align with His image is healthy. Confidence in ourselves apart from God is a ticket to the lake of fire.

That is a harsh blanket judgment.

Scripture is harsh. I love you, accept my gift or burn.

I am accustomed to some who either ignore scripture or don't know it, using the, "Don't judge" blather. WE ARE TO JUDGE THOSE IN THE CHURCH. We are to encourage, and rebuke.
Pro, 27:5
Open rebuke is better than secret love.
6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
Paul shames the church at Corinth for their acceptance of some guy hooking up with his Fathers wife, not hooking up with his husband.
1 Cor 5:1
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and sexual immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, namely, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to turn such a person over to Satan for the destruction of his body, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
Romans 1:24
Therefore God gave them up to vile impurity in the lusts of their hearts, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for falsehood, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged natural relations for that which is contrary to nature, 27 and likewise the men, too, abandoned natural relations with women and burned in their desire toward one another, males with males committing shameful acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

Acceptance of queers is fine. Acceptance of and agreement with the lifestyle is not. Lot was surrounded by them. So he must have done business with them and even had friends among them, he did not agree with them

2 Peter, 2:8For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds.
If some desire to live in sin that's their option. I have grandchildren in grade 5 and 6. When they inculcate them in the path to destruction I absolutely resist. What is worse however is the chorus of horsepucky spewing from the mouths of alleged believers in agreement.

I believe you believe, so if if you don't include yourself in that deception neither do I.

Gotta go. Will review with corrections later.

Again we are trying to enforce our religious beliefs on other who do not share them.

 

[Palmfever]

Again we are trying to enforce our religious beliefs on other who do not share them.

I don't know about you but I did not in anyway imply that I would impose God's viewpoint on queerdom. Read.
I will continue however to speak against "Christians" who support the behavior. This is a Christian forum.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I don't know about you but I did not in anyway imply that I would impose God's viewpoint on queerdom. Read.
I will continue however to speak against "Christians" who support the behavior. This is a Christian forum.

Do you equate tolerate with support?

 

[Palmfever]

Do you equate tolerate with support?

Tolerate. To refrain from interfering with or prohibiting (something undesirable or outside one's own practice or beliefs); allow or permit.
Support. to uphold or defend as valid or right : Advocate

No, why would I? They are two different words and meanings. Do You?
Do you encourage and support trans and queer lifestyles. I tolerate it. Clear? Do you support it being taught in school as a natural life choice? Or do you tolerate it as did Lot and does God? I absolutely abhor the pushers and peddlers of this deviant behavior on the children.

Stop avoiding and answer, or don't. The words you chose and those you avoid speak for themselves. Be honest. At least we will know where we stand.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Can you define or qualify exactly what is and is not pornography so that it can be banned? I do not support it but I also do not know how to deal with it. Certainly we can protect children but adults have freedom.

You know what pornography is and I won't accept that you don't. If you are going to argue on the basis of freedom that pornography must be protected in the producing and distribution thereof, you have moved beyond Christian morality to some form of libertarianism and I don't see what we have as a society to gain from such 'freedom' when it results in misery and the decay of society into unproductive degeneracy. Said freedom is no longer for the common good, rather it is for the sake of satisfying individual desires.

What productive tax payers? Are they breaking the law?

When you increase social spending on programs, you must necessarily get that money from somewhere and this is usually from the earners and this is done with government threatening to imprison or kill you if you fail to pay taxes. This is a far cry from the spirit of Christianity in which Christ told us to take care of the poor.

The view you present on LGBTQ is based on religious beliefs. Is it not? We live in a pluralistic society where your and my personal religious beliefs are not shared by others. We cannot and ought not expect others to comply with our religious beliefs.

Do we as Christians have the freedom to not want to live in a pluralistic society and one which largely conforms itself to Christian norms, especially in terms of secular morality? This is something not even most conservatives would advocate for and they would be in full agreement with your own perspective on this. So I don't see what you have against conservatives if I'm being honest.

 

[Palmfever]

You know what pornography is and I won't accept that you don't. If you are going to argue on the basis of freedom that pornography must be protected in the producing and distribution thereof, you have moved beyond Christian morality to some form of libertarianism and I don't see what we have as a society to gain from such 'freedom' when it results in misery and the decay of society into unproductive degeneracy. Said freedom is no longer for the common good, rather it is for the sake of satisfying individual desires.


When you increase social spending on programs, you must necessarily get that money from somewhere and this is usually from the earners and this is done with government threatening to imprison or kill you if you fail to pay taxes. This is a far cry from the spirit of Christianity in which Christ told us to take care of the poor.

Do we as Christians have the freedom to not want to live in a pluralistic society and one which largely conforms itself to Christian norms, especially in terms of secular morality? This is something not even most conservatives would advocate for and they would be in full agreement with your own perspective on this. So I don't see what you have against conservatives if I'm being honest.

It appears extremely difficult to find a straight answer from some 'believers.'

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Tolerate. To refrain from interfering with or prohibiting (something undesirable or outside one's own practice or beliefs); allow or permit.
Support. to uphold or defend as valid or right : Advocate

No, why would I? They are two different words and meanings. Do You?
Do you encourage and support trans and queer lifestyles. I tolerate it. Clear? Do you support it being taught in school as a natural life choice? Or do you tolerate it as did Lot and does God? I absolutely abhor the pushers and peddlers of this deviant behavior on the children.

Stop avoiding and answer, or don't. The words you chose and those you avoid speak for themselves. Be honest. At least we will know where we stand.

I am not avoiding an answer. But it sounded like you equated toleration with supporting. Now you say you do not.
I tolerate but do not support sin in general.

"Do you support it being taught in school as a natural life choice?"
I think at some point it must be dealt with in education but I don't know how in a public school.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

You know what pornography is and I won't accept that you don't.

And yet wont or cannot define or qualify exactly what is and is not pornography so that it can be banned.

If you are going to argue on the basis of freedom that pornography must be protected in the producing and distribution thereof, you have moved beyond Christian morality to some form of libertarianism and I don't see what we have as a society to gain from such 'freedom' when it results in misery and the decay of society into unproductive degeneracy. Said freedom is no longer for the common good, rather it is for the sake of satisfying individual desires.

I do not argue that.

When you increase social spending on programs, you must necessarily get that money from somewhere and this is usually from the earners and this is done with government threatening to imprison or kill you if you fail to pay taxes. This is a far cry from the spirit of Christianity in which Christ told us to take care of the poor.

If one does not render unto Caesar let them be prosecuted.

Do we as Christians have the freedom to not want to live in a pluralistic society and one which largely conforms itself to Christian norms, especially in terms of secular morality?

Freedom to not want to live in a pluralistic society? Yes, but we would have to move somewhere isolated.

This is something not even most conservatives would advocate for and they would be in full agreement with your own perspective on this. So I don't see what you have against conservatives if I'm being honest.

I just don't understand why the boast about it.