SC Senate Passes Bill Banning Affirmative Care For Minors

[RileyG]

You mock but you are the one acting like men and women are interchangeable when they are not. Men are not women and vice versa.

Be it God or evolutionary biology - or whatever you want to attribute it to - our sex is determined at the moment of conception. Any claim that it is not is false.

Any claim that a man can become a woman or a woman a man is false.

Any claim that a person is not either a male or a female is false.

It is not about "wickedness" - it is about what is true - and what we can do to help these confused people.

A man or woman who claims to be the opposite sex (or none at all) may simply be a liar - they could also have a mental illness - or they could be a sexual fetishist.

It does not matter why - they are wrong - and they need to stop - they need our help.

Amen! Well said! I stand against trans ideology.

 

[Zaha Torte]

What about other cultures where different traits and preferences are associated with biological sex? Is the entire culture wrong?

Irrelevant. Men and women are not social constructs.

What is being claimed is that a man can become a person with traits and behaviors we usually associate with women but still have the reproductive biology of a man. That person may wish to function socially as a woman rather than a man. He is not claiming to be a woman according to your definition. That is just a rhetorical trick you employ because you are not arguing honestly.

You are not paying attention.

Part of their confusion depends on your assumption that the nature of the non-biological differences between men and women are yours to define and dictate.

You are woefully unprepared to have this discussion.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Then how do you judge another's feelings as wrong?

Feelings do not decide our sex.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Amen! Well said! I stand against trans ideology.

It is truly an ideology penned by Satan himself.

 

[Foamhead]

I tend to ironic responses, sorry. But yes, any departure from God's strict order that males should be "manly" and females should be "girly" and take up a fixed set of social roles is seen as either wickedness or mental illness. The problem with trans is not the "feel like a man" or "feel like woman" part of it--they really don't care what trans people feel. They just resent being forced to accomodate what they see as deviant behavior.

What are you trying to accomplish by your exchanges in this thread? I'm just curious.

 

[Zaha Torte]

What are you trying to accomplish by your exchanges in this thread? I'm just curious.

Only accomplishing the spread of misinformation so far.

 

[BCP1928]

Irrelevant. Men and women are not social constructs.

But many of the behaviors and personal expressions which we associate with men or women are culturally determined. Since feelings play a role in shaping our overt behaviors and personal expressions, it is possible to see why some people who spontaneously exhibit the overt behaviors and personal expressions commonly associated with the opposite sex might suppose that they possessed the feelings of the opposite sex as well.

You are not paying attention.

You are woefully unprepared to have this discussion.

What is it that I am not paying attention to?

 

[Zaha Torte]

But many of the behaviors and personal expressions which we associate with men or women are culturally determined.

Men and women are not social constructs. A dress, wig and make-up does not a woman make.

Since feelings play a role in shaping our overt behaviors and personal expressions, it is possible to see why some people who spontaneously exhibit the overt behaviors and personal expressions commonly associated with the opposite sex might suppose that they possessed the feelings of the opposite sex as well.

I understand their position - or rather positions - as I said - they are either liars, suffer from a delusion or are sexual fetishists.

What is it that I am not paying attention to?

The fact that transgender activists are claiming that a man who claims to be a woman is literally a woman or female.

This agenda for "inclusive language", "preferred pronouns" and invasion of men's and women's spaces is a claim that a person can literally be a member of the opposite sex.

You are not paying attention.

 

[BCP1928]

What are you trying to accomplish by your exchanges in this thread? I'm just curious.

I'm trying to find out what is really at stake here. The accomodation of a few trans people in society poses no great risk that I can see. Nobody I know, nothing I care about is endangered. Yet it is painted as an existential threat to Western civilization. The anti-trans crowd loves to build straw men and knock them down, spins elaborate and implausible conspiracies theories, but I don't think they have been quite honest with ius about what it is they are trying to defend.

 

[BCP1928]

Men and women are not social constructs. A dress, wig and make-up does not a woman make.

Right. Those are just the superficial aspects and are entirely culturally determined. In any case, many trans people don't dress out like that.

I understand their position - or rather positions - as I said - they are either liars, suffer from a delusion or are sexual fetishists.

They may just be wrong. After all, the only way they have to determine that their feelings are truly those of a woman is to observe that their spontaneous behavior is similar to that of other women.

The fact that transgender activists are claiming that a man who claims to be a woman is literally a woman or female.

This agenda for "inclusive language", "preferred pronouns" and invasion of men's and women's spaces is a claim that a person can literally be a member of the opposite sex.

You are not paying attention.

What I am paying attention to is your characterization of trans people. A person may be wrong about which gender box he assigns his feelings to but it is hard to see how he might be wrong about what his feelings actually are. After all, he is the one feeling them and you are not. To tell him that he is lying to you about what his feelings actually are, that he doesn't know what his feelings actually are or that he must be a pervert hardly seems helpful.

 

[RileyG]

Behavior and feelings do not define gender. Gender roles and stereotypes, yes, but not gender itself.

 

[BCP1928]

Behavior and feelings do not define gender. Gender roles and stereotypes, yes, but not gender itself.

It depends, I suppose, as to which is more important to a person's sense of self: his feelings and behavior or his genitals.

 

[RileyG]

It depends, I suppose, as to which is more important to a person's sense of self: his feelings and behavior or his genitals.

So? They still wouldn’t know what it’s like to be the opposite sex regardless of what they think they identify as. That’s not how biology or logic works. Your sexual organs kinda have a lot to do with your gender.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Right. Those are just the superficial aspects and are entirely culturally determined. In any case, many trans people don't dress out like that.

You realize that you are not making any sense - right?

When I claimed that sex is determined at conception you said in response,

"What about other cultures where different traits and preferences are associated with biological sex? Is the entire culture wrong?"

You tried to make the claim that cultural "traits and preferences" had something to do with determining sex. When they don't.

Yet now - after I pointed out who ridiculous that claim was - you are claiming that these things are just "superficial" and don't really matter?

If dressing and acting like the opposite sex does not matter to transpeople - then why are they all doing it and claiming that it is somehow proof of them being the opposite sex?

Please explain.

They may just be wrong. After all, the only way they have to determine that their feelings are truly those of a woman is to observe that their spontaneous behavior is similar to that of other women.

You got to love these Freudian Slips!

You have maintained that,

"That person may wish to function socially as a woman rather than a man. He is not claiming to be a woman according to your definition. That is just a rhetorical trick you employ because you are not arguing honestly."

Yet now you said,

"After all, the only way they have to determine that their feelings are truly those of a woman is to observe that their spontaneous behavior is similar to that of other women." (Bold and italics added)

You just said unequivocally that men who mimic actual women ARE WOMEN - proving that to you - they are women - despite you claiming that they just want to "function socially" as a woman.

If you need to change or offer an alternative definition of what a woman is - then you are the one trying to employ some "rhetorical trick".

And how does this idea work anyway? If I watch a bird long enough I'll become one? Where's your limit?

This is why this ideology is so dangerous and crazy. If we let it run loose, then no one would know what anything is anymore.

What I am paying attention to is your characterization of trans people.

Confused people who really need the Lord Jesus Christ.

A person may be wrong about which gender box he assigns his feelings to but it is hard to see how he might be wrong about what his feelings actually are.

His feelings are those of a confused man. He has never and will never know what a woman feels or what it is like to be a woman.

After all, he is the one feeling them and you are not.

Feelings are subjective and they do not alter reality.

To tell him that he is lying to you about what his feelings actually are, that he doesn't know what his feelings actually are or that he must be a pervert hardly seems helpful.

If he claims to be a woman then he is lying about being a woman. Even if he claims to "feel" like a woman. That doesn't matter.

He could just be confused, or he is a pervert - those are the only options. That's reality.

It is better for me to tell him the truth, so he hopefully does not try to poison himself with hormones or have irreparable surgeries performed on himself.

No good comes from lying about what people actually are.

 

[BCP1928]

You realize that you are not making any sense - right?

When I claimed that sex is determined at conception you said in response,

"What about other cultures where different traits and preferences are associated with biological sex? Is the entire culture wrong?"

You tried to make the claim that cultural "traits and preferences" had something to do with determining sex. When they don't.

No, they have a great deal to do with how a man or a woman lives their life.

Yet now - after I pointed out who ridiculous that claim was - you are claiming that these things are just "superficial" and don't really matter?

Just the dress and wig. Those are very superficial expressions of gender. Are those the only culturally derived traits you know about? Or the only ones you care about?

If dressing and acting like the opposite sex does not matter to transpeople - then why are they all doing it and claiming that it is somehow proof of them being the opposite sex?

Who said it didn't matter? Some don't choose to, that's all.

Please explain.

You got to love these Freudian Slips!

You have maintained that,

"That person may wish to function socially as a woman rather than a man. He is not claiming to be a woman according to your definition. That is just a rhetorical trick you employ because you are not arguing honestly."

Yet now you said,

"After all, the only way they have to determine that their feelings are truly those of a woman is to observe that their spontaneous behavior is similar to that of other women." (Bold and italics added)

You just said unequivocally that men who mimic actual women ARE WOMEN - proving that to you - they are women - despite you claiming that they just want to "function socially" as a woman.

No, you're just reaching. But what are they mimicking? It is their spontaneous thoughts and behavior which led them to conclude that they might be trans to begin with?

If you need to change or offer an alternative definition of what a woman is - then you are the one trying to employ some "rhetorical trick".

And how does this idea work anyway? If I watch a bird long enough I'll become one? Where's your limit?

This is why this ideology is so dangerous and crazy. If we let it run loose, then no one would know what anything is anymore.

Confused people who really need the Lord Jesus Christ.

His feelings are those of a confused man. He has never and will never know what a woman feels or what it is like to be a woman.

No, but he knows what it feels like to be himself, no matter what he calls it. In fact, if he was not forced into one of only two behavioral boxes, it might not occur to him that there was such a thing as trans. Or, there could be a third gender category for him. Some cultures do that.

Feelings are subjective and they do not alter reality.

If he claims to be a woman then he is lying about being a woman. Even if he claims to "feel" like a woman. That doesn't matter.

He could just be confused, or he is a pervert - those are the only options. That's reality.What is he confused about

It is better for me to tell him the truth, so he hopefully does not try to poison himself with hormones or have irreparable surgeries performed on himself.

No good comes from lying about what people actually are.

What is he confused about? If he believes he is a real, born-as-a-biological-female woman, then he is seriously deluded. If he believes that he is a trans woman and wants to be treated as a woman, to present as a woman to others then for all social purposes he is a woman.

 

[Foamhead]

I'm trying to find out what is really at stake here. The accomodation of a few trans people in society poses no great risk that I can see. Nobody I know, nothing I care about is endangered. Yet it is painted as an existential threat to Western civilization. The anti-trans crowd loves to build straw men and knock them down, spins elaborate and implausible conspiracies theories, but I don't think they have been quite honest with ius about what it is they are trying to defend.

Do you just thirst for arguing and "being right", or are you one of those people who can't help themselves and must get the last word? I'm not asking to be a jerk, I'm being sincere.

I'm going to be clear before people smash the report button, I'm not saying all Christians are bigots/homophobes. Of course they aren't, and not all bigots/homophobes are Christians. However in the context of this conversation and community there is obvious overlap. Of course there is reasoned discussions that can and should be had about how to treat transgender youths and how society should adapt... reasonable people can talk about those things. Reasoned people also can have different opinions and thoughtful reasons why, and those ideas should be exchanged.

The reason I posted is not because I'm trying to change anyone's mind. When someone holds homophobic or bigoted views it's not something you can debate out of them. It's hate and disgust, and those things have no reasoned or rational basis. "For the children" is a very common method that bigots and religious fanatics use to try and push through a hateful policy or ideology, because they know "I hate them" or "it's my religion" is a losing argument.

This is why, in the transgender discourse, they constantly harp on children or nonsense arguments about biology. After all, I'm sure they were deeply concerned with biological purity before transgenders showed up on their radar. I'm sure they also oppose all forms of plastic surgery, glasses and anything else that alters nature.

Obviously they won't be able to choose who the biological male is in those photos... no one could. But they won't ever admit it because their arguments from nature/biology would be destroyed and they know it. It's like when they say being gay is a choice, but refuse to answer when asked if they could be in a gay relationship if they wanted. If they're straight then of course not, and they know admitting so would also shatter that argument also. Essentially I'm demonstrating that they don't even believe in their own arguments and they know it, but of course will never ever admit it.

So here's the answer, for anyone who cares...

Drum roll...

All three are biological males.

They have a medical condition called androgen insensitivity syndrome which, in a nutshell, means that they are incapable of responding to male hormones. No amount of testosterone injections will have any effect whatsoever. Many grow into adulthood unaware they are biological males. They have female anatomy and often the only treatment is hormone therapy to preserve good bone density and removal of the non-functioning gonads to prevent cancer.

Gender, even biological, is not nearly as black and white as some wish it was. Altered brain development and other factors all play a part in gender identity disorder as has been demonstrated by science in labs. Nature, unfortunately, is imprecise and not always fair. But when something doesn't effect you personally, it's easy to bully and terrorize those who suffer.

Studies have repeatedly born out that those who have bigoted views are markedly less intelligent and do not have the cognitive ability to process ambiguity or grey areas. This is true of any bigot regardless of if they are religious or not, or if they are rightwing/leftwing. Because of this they tend to latch onto "systems", religion, politics, whatever... because it gives them a very easy binary guide to make decisions by. They are also useful tools for thugs, bullies and psychopaths to use as a bludgeon against others. They're also huge fans of in-groups/out-groups because it gives them clear, easy targets.

You can't reason with them and trying to argue with them just excites them. The more you push back the more right they think they are... or don't care. Putting their venom in the other person is the real point.

“Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.”​

― George Bernard Shaw

 

[Zaha Torte]

We aren't going to agree on this, and I am surprised that you continue on as if you have not already exposed your hand.

No, they have a great deal to do with how a man or a woman lives their life.

Yet nothing to do with whether they are a man or a woman.

Just the dress and wig. Those are very superficial expressions of gender.

I don't believe they are expressions of sex at all.

Are those the only culturally derived traits you know about? Or the only ones you care about?

They are the ones that transgender people and activists tend to focus on. Was this an attempt at an ad hominem?

Who said it didn't matter?

You when you said that they were superficial.

Some don't choose to, that's all.

Correct - they claim to be members of the opposite sex and demand that they be treated as such while doing nothing to even appear as one.

No, you're just reaching.

I'm sorry you got caught. This conversation is over as far as I am concerned.

But what are they mimicking?

The affectations of the opposite sex.

It is their spontaneous thoughts and behavior which led them to conclude that they might be trans to begin with?

The only intrinsic behaviors that human beings have are to cry, eat, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and poop. Everything else is learned.

No, but he knows what it feels like to be himself, no matter what he calls it.

So, you admit that he does not feel like a woman? He can only feel what he feels - not what others feel.

The only person who has felt what he feels is the Lord Jesus Christ - which is why all these confused people should turn to Him and be healed.

In fact, if he was not forced into one of only two behavioral boxes, it might not occur to him that there was such a thing as trans.

The binary of sex is just a fact that we all have to live with - no one is forcing it on him - just like how no one is forcing gravity on him

There are only the two sexes - zero genders - but infinite personalities.

Or, there could be a third gender category for him. Some cultures do that.

There isn't and they don't.

What is he confused about?

That he knows what women think and feel like. That he himself is a woman or should be treated like a woman.

If he believes he is a real, born-as-a-biological-female woman, then he is seriously deluded.

Correct.

If he believes that he is a trans woman and wants to be treated as a woman, to present as a woman to others then for all social purposes he is a woman.

No, he is still a man.

Why the push for all the hormones and surgeries if this is all that it takes?

 

[Zaha Torte]

Do you just thirsts for arguing and "being right", or are you one of those people who can't help themselves and must get the last word? I'm not asking to be a jerk, I'm being sincere.

I'm going to be clear before people smash the report button, I'm not saying all Christians are bigots/homophobes. Of course they aren't, and not all bigots/homophobes are Christians. However in the context of this conversation and community there is obvious overlap. Of course there is reasoned discussions that can and should be had about how to treat transgender youths and how society should adapt... reasonable people can talk about those things. Reasoned people also can have different opinions and thoughtful reasons why, and those ideas should be exchanged.

The reason I posted is not because I'm trying to change anyone's mind. When someone holds homophobic or bigoted views it's not something you can debate out of them. It's hate and disgust, and those things have no reasoned or rational basis. "For the children" is a very common method that bigots and religious fanatics use to try and push through a hateful policy or ideology, because they know "I hate them" or "it's my religion" is a losing argument.

This is why, in the transgender discourse, they constantly harp on children or nonsense arguments about biology. After all, I'm sure they were deeply concerned with biological purity before transgenders showed up on their radar. I'm sure they also oppose all forms of plastic surgery, glasses and anything else that alters nature.

Obviously they won't be able to choose who the biological male is in those photos... no one could. But they won't ever admit it because their arguments from nature/biology would be destroyed and they know it. It's like when they say being gay is a choice, but refuse to answer when asked if they could be in a gay relationship if they wanted. If they're straight then of course not, and they know admitting so would also shatter that argument also. Essentially I'm demonstrating that they don't even believe in their own arguments and they know it, but of course will never ever admit it.

So here's the answer, for anyone who cares...

Drum roll...

All three are biological males.

They have a medical condition called androgen insensitivity syndrome which, in a nutshell, means that they are incapable of responding to male hormones. No amount of testosterone injections will have any effect whatsoever. Many grow into adulthood unaware they are biological males. They have female anatomy and often the only treatment is hormone therapy to preserve good bone density and removal of the non-functioning gonads to prevent cancer.

Gender, even biological, is not nearly as black and white as some wish it was. Altered brain development and other factors all play a part in gender identity disorder as has been demonstrated by science in labs. Nature, unfortunately, is imprecise and not always fair. But when something doesn't effect you personally, it's easy to bully and terrorize those who suffer.

Studies have repeatedly born out that those who have bigoted views are markedly less intelligent and do not have the cognitive ability to process ambiguity or grey areas. This is true of any bigot regardless of if they are religious or not, or if they are rightwing/leftwing. Because of this they tend to latch onto "systems", religion, politics, whatever... because it gives them a very easy binary guide to make decisions by. They are also useful tools for thugs, bullies and psychopaths to use as a bludgeon against others. They're also huge fans of in-groups/out-groups because it gives them clear, easy targets.

You can't reason with them and trying to argue with them just excites them. The more you push back the more right they think they are... or don't care. Putting their venom in the other person is the real point.

“Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.”​

― George Bernard Shaw

Unless you are claiming that all transgender people suffer from androgen insensitivity syndrome - then bringing it up is pointless.

And you refuted your own argument because we know that they are biological males - as you said.

There being some extreme cases where it may be difficult to determine the sex does not justify an obvious man suddenly claiming to be a woman.

Why did you feel the need to use such an extreme condition to try and justify something that is not related to that condition?

 

[rjs330]

Do you guys just not read the posts?

I said twice now there are no tricks. They aren't trans, cross dressing, no surgery, nothing.

I don't even know what your point is anymore. And I responded with the evidence you demanded. So why don't you respond to my questions?

 

[rjs330]

They dare not. Gender conformity is too important to their world view. Because you can't tell anything about their gonads from those pictures, those people are a threat to gender conformity even if there are no tricks.

Gender conformity is irrelevant. Sigh.... I ha e no idea anymore why you keep saying nonsense like this. Utter underrated nonsense.