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Iran Launches Attack on Israel

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Jamdoc

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Jews don't believe in the devil, fyi. What is your expertise on Islam? Did you take a course in Islamic studies? Have you visited a mosque or a Muslim country?

I do not like Islam and am not at all inclined to defend it. However during the holocaust it was mainly Muslim countries that sheltered and defended Jews while Christian America and Europe told us to buzz off:


Also:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EPSCzzuXUAAO1H8?format=jpg&name=small (Muslim woman hiding yellow star of her neighbour)

I have never once seen any of these stories posted or acknowledged by an evangelical or American Christian on any forum or blog. I actually checked. I wonder why that is? Because you guys don't care and it conflicts with your animus towards Muslims and Arabs.

Jews are also allowed to lie or break most Mitzvot if it is in preservation of the life of oneself or another. if someone were after you with a gun and I were hiding you in my house, I can lie and say I never saw you without it being a sin. If some nazi pointed a gun at me and told me to eat a bacon sandwich, I can do it and in fact am obligated to do so under Halakha.

I'm not blind to the violence and antisemitism in Islamic countries, but don't act like they're any worse then how Christians have historically treated us either. Christians in the U.S. support Israel, not the Jews that live there. Christian Zionist types think G-d is going to give Israel to them after Jesus comes back to wipe the rest of us out, and therefore support Jews only so far as it plays into their apocalyptic beliefs.

It's always said that the devil's greatest deception is convincing everyone he doesn't exist...

as for Islam? I've read Qur'an, and some of the Hadiths and apocalyptic writings of Islamic scholars. Some of which are striking, their eschatology is the anti-parallel of Christian eschatology. It's the same story but told from the opposing side.

Individual Muslims may or may not adhere to those doctrines just as individual Christians may or may not adhere to Christian doctrines, but the doctrines should be considered rather than individual adherence to them or being lax about them.

There are different Christian doctrines as well. Primarily on Europe, where Catholicism reigned, Jews are seen as Christ-killers and they view the Church as supplanting Israel in the Lord's plans.
This is however biblically false.
Evangelicals which you wrongly demonize, believe in the Jewish people's future redemption, admittedly we believe it will be through Jews looking on Him whom they pierced and mourning as if for a first born son, repenting, and accepting your Messiah. But we see redemption where in Islam they see eradication.

Zechariah 12
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

Who can pour the spirit of grace and supplication on the house of David and inhabitants of Jerusalem?
Who did they (the house of David and inhabitants of Jerusalem) pierce?
and why would they mourn for piercing Him?

Matthew 27
22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.
23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

so yes, replacement theologists who do not believe in a future redemption of Israel are likely to mistreat Jews, seeing Christ's blood being spilt at their hands.
but they miss the big picture, and the awesome miracle of Israel's repentance and salvation.
Romans 11 promises it, Zechariah 12, and Revelation 7 show it.

Meanwhile Islam, from one of the Hadiths, Sahih al-Bukhari
Sahih al-Bukhari
from the 94th Chapter "fighting against the Jews"
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews until some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O `Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.'"
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
as I said earlier, within Islam they do not believe the Resurrection will happen until they destroy the Jews.

So sure, you can give anecdotes about Muslims who do not strictly follow their beliefs not mistreating Jews
but you are in essence relying on people not acting on what their religion believes.
What happens when you encounter those who truly believe?

If a Christian truly believes the bible, they see your future salvation. We may witness to you, pray for you, and try to bless you, but the furthest thing we want is for your harm, because we see a plan of God in the works and want to see it fulfilled.
and it's fulfillment is your salvation and your joy.

if a Muslim truly believes the Qur'an and the Hadiths? they want you dead, so that the last day can happen and the resurrection. To them your existence is impeding their eternal life.
 
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JosephZ

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Islamic eschatology is just that, they want to kill every Jewish person on the planet.

For them the Resurrection cannot happen, until Jews are extinct.

any Muslim who believes in the Qur'an and the Hadiths, believes in the eradication of Jews, and Christians when their version of Jesus comes back.
within Islam they do not believe the Resurrection will happen until they destroy the Jews.
if a Muslim truly believes the Qur'an and the Hadiths? they want you dead, so that the last day can happen and the resurrection. To them your existence is impeding their eternal life.
The view that the Jews are preventing the day of the resurrection from happening is held by only a small fringe of the world's Muslim population. This doctrine is found in the Twelvers sect of the Shia branch of Islam. Shia Muslims account for around 12% of the world's Muslims, and around 80% of those are Twelvers—less than 10% of the world's Muslims. And finally, among the Twelvers, not all believe that Jews are preventing the Mahdi from returning or the day of the resurrection.

Teaching that Jews are preventing the Madhi's appearance and that Jews must be destroyed is an extremist position and isn't found in mainstream Islam. The Iranian government and Hamas, however, are adherents to this doctrine, so it's definitely a threat to Israel.

branches of islam twelvers.jpg
 
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Jamdoc

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The view that the Jews are preventing the day of the resurrection from happening is held by only a small fringe of the world's Muslim population. This doctrine is found in the Twelvers sect of the Shia branch of Islam. Shia Muslims account for around 12% of the world's Muslims, and around 80% of those are Twelvers—less than 10% of the world's Muslims. And finally, among the Twelvers, not all believe that Jews are preventing the Mahdi from returning or the day of the resurrection.

Teaching that Jews are preventing the Madhi's appearance and that Jews must be destroyed is an extremist position and isn't found in mainstream Islam. The Iranian government and Hamas, however, are adherents to this doctrine, so it's definitely a threat to Israel.

View attachment 346003
I mean what I quoted is from one of the Sunnah, but okay.

It's part of their sacred traditions though and so you are relying on practicing Muslims not really believing it.
which is.. kind of a bad thing to rest on
You wouldn't bet your life on a Nazi not "really" believing Hitler and Goebbels would you? No you'd see the ideology and not feel peace with anyone who even SAID they believed in that ideology. You'd always anticipate that they just might try to kill you.
because their claimed ideology wants you purged.
 
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Desk trauma

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Evangelicals which you wrongly demonize, believe in the Jewish people's future redemption, admittedly we believe it will be through Jews looking on Him whom they pierced and mourning as if for a first born son, repenting, and accepting your Messiah. But we see redemption where in Islam they see eradication.
Pity the Jewish people have had such an uneventful peaceful existence never suffering any calamity as a group that would cause such feelings among them.
 
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Jamdoc

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Pity the Jewish people have had such an uneventful peaceful existence never suffering any calamity as a group that would cause such feelings among them.
I never said they weren't persecuted.
They've been scattered among the nations for a long time, and reduced to few in number, the way God promised to do back in the Torah.
God has chastised them heavily, but it is with the intent to bring them back, and save them.
 
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Slibhin

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It's always said that the devil's greatest deception is convincing everyone he doesn't exist...

as for Islam? I've read Qur'an, and some of the Hadiths and apocalyptic writings of Islamic scholars. Some of which are striking, their eschatology is the anti-parallel of Christian eschatology. It's the same story but told from the opposing side.

Individual Muslims may or may not adhere to those doctrines just as individual Christians may or may not adhere to Christian doctrines, but the doctrines should be considered rather than individual adherence to them or being lax about them.

There are different Christian doctrines as well. Primarily on Europe, where Catholicism reigned, Jews are seen as Christ-killers and they view the Church as supplanting Israel in the Lord's plans.
This is however biblically false.
Evangelicals which you wrongly demonize, believe in the Jewish people's future redemption, admittedly we believe it will be through Jews looking on Him whom they pierced and mourning as if for a first born son, repenting, and accepting your Messiah. But we see redemption where in Islam they see eradication.

Zechariah 12


Who can pour the spirit of grace and supplication on the house of David and inhabitants of Jerusalem?
Who did they (the house of David and inhabitants of Jerusalem) pierce?
and why would they mourn for piercing Him?

Matthew 27


so yes, replacement theologists who do not believe in a future redemption of Israel are likely to mistreat Jews, seeing Christ's blood being spilt at their hands.
but they miss the big picture, and the awesome miracle of Israel's repentance and salvation.
Romans 11 promises it, Zechariah 12, and Revelation 7 show it.

Meanwhile Islam, from one of the Hadiths, Sahih al-Bukhari
Sahih al-Bukhari
from the 94th Chapter "fighting against the Jews"


as I said earlier, within Islam they do not believe the Resurrection will happen until they destroy the Jews.

So sure, you can give anecdotes about Muslims who do not strictly follow their beliefs not mistreating Jews
but you are in essence relying on people not acting on what their religion believes.
What happens when you encounter those who truly believe?

If a Christian truly believes the bible, they see your future salvation. We may witness to you, pray for you, and try to bless you, but the furthest thing we want is for your harm, because we see a plan of God in the works and want to see it fulfilled.
and it's fulfillment is your salvation and your joy.

if a Muslim truly believes the Qur'an and the Hadiths? they want you dead, so that the last day can happen and the resurrection. To them your existence is impeding their eternal life.
I don't believe in the Christian bible so quoting it is as meaningless to me as quoting the back of a cereal box. The devil does not exist in the Tanakh so claiming he does based on the lack of evidence is a contradiction.

"Anecdote" means short and amusing story, and what I posted is hardly such. However you have proven my point nicely in disregarding oceans of Muslims who contradict your position since it doesn't re-enforce your contempt for them.

I'm not interested in being an apologist for Islam so I have no idea if what you posted is accurate, but judging by my previous experiences with evangelicals I suspect that it is, well, suspect.
 
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Desk trauma

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I never said they weren't persecuted.
They've been scattered among the nations for a long time, and reduced to few in number, the way God promised to do back in the Torah.
God has chastised them heavily, but it is with the intent to bring them back, and save them.
Still not enough to make them abandon their religion and join yours so I guess more/worse persecution is needed.
 
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Jamdoc

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I don't believe in the Christian bible so quoting it is as meaningless to me as quoting the back of a cereal box. The devil does not exist in the Tanakh so claiming he does based on the lack of evidence is a contradiction.

"Anecdote" means short and amusing story, and what I posted is hardly such. However you have proven my point nicely in disregarding oceans of Muslims who contradict your position since it doesn't re-enforce your contempt for them.

I'm not interested in being an apologist for Islam so I have no idea if what you posted is accurate, but judging by my previous experiences with evangelicals I suspect that it is, well, suspect.
the Prophet Zechariah is not Christian Bible, it's part of the Hebrew Tanakh, and the Devil does exist in the Tanakh, he's in Genesis and Job.. and also in Chronicles and the books of Kings, David took a census .... the thought to do so was inspired by Satan and Israel was chastised for it.

as for the Sunnah I quoted? I quoted it from an Islamic source.
 
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Jamdoc

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Still not enough to make them abandon their religion and join yours so I guess more/worse persecution is needed.
Unfortunately worse is actually prophecied. Zechariah 13.

I don't want it, but the word of God says it.
What I want is the spirit of Grace and Supplication poured out on them.
unfortunately eschatology has great suffering happening prior. Zechariah 13 and Daniel 12.
 
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JosephZ

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I mean what I quoted is from one of the Sunnah, but okay.
I know it was.

It's part of their sacred traditions though and so you are relying on practicing Muslims not really believing it.
The Islamic extremists misinterpret those texts just as you have. Fortunately, the vast majority of the world's Muslims don't interpret their holy texts in the way you and the extremists do.
 
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Jamdoc

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I know it was.


The Islamic extremists misinterpret those texts just as you have. Fortunately, the vast majority of the world's Muslims don't interpret their holy texts in the way you and the extremists do.
how do they interpret text about the trees and rocks asking Muslims to kill a Jew hiding behind them. I mean that's what the text says.
 
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rjs330

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I'm not blind to the violence and antisemitism in Islamic countries, but don't act like they're any worse then how Christians have historically treated us either. Christians in the U.S. support Israel, not the Jews that live there. Christian Zionist types think G-d is going to give Israel to them after Jesus comes back to wipe the rest of us out, and therefore support Jews only so far as it plays into their apocalyptic beliefs.
I think you are incorrect. There is no doubt that the Jews have suffered under the Muslims and the Christians in history. You make a mistake that many make in assigning past experiences to today. Christians today by and large support Israel and the Jews. We are deeply sorry for your treatment in the past. But we support you today and have for some time. I grew up in an Evangelical church and we always had a strong connection to the Jews, Orthodox or not.

The US absolutely supports the Jews who live there. I don't understand at all why you would think otherwise.

As far as the religious beliefs are concerned yes we do believe that Christ will return and will rule while the Christians of ALL types will be with him. And a new Jerusalem will eventually be created for all the believers. But that is what the NT says and it's not because we hold any personal desire to own Jerusalem or the area. Quite frankly we don't really care where Christ comes or where he lives or where he rules as long as we are with him.

And I know that you don't believe any of it, but that's between you and G-d. Not between you and me.

If some Christian came to you and started trying to harm you I would be the first to your defense. I love G-d's chosen because it was through them that the Messiah was born and the very reason I am saved today.
 
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Slibhin

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the Prophet Zechariah is not Christian Bible, it's part of the Hebrew Tanakh, and the Devil does exist in the Tanakh, he's in Genesis and Job.. and also in Chronicles and the books of Kings, David took a census .... the thought to do so was inspired by Satan and Israel was chastised for it.

as for the Sunnah I quoted? I quoted it from an Islamic source.
I don't accept Christian translations of the Tanakh. Satan does not appear in Numbers or Genesis, you are just inserting him into the roles of the serpent and the advisory against Balaam. Is is true that HaSatan is an advisory, he is also described as an angel of the L-rd. When you (and Christians) say "the devil", you are referring to a renegade angel who has some sort of quasi-omniscient ability to inflict evil and control people.

At no point is he ever depicted as such, nor are angels even able to rebel. He appears mostly in Job, and briefly in Chronicles and Zechariah, always as a divine accuser and never able to do anything without G-d's permission. Regardless, this is getting off topic.
 
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rjs330

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how do they interpret text about the trees and rocks asking Muslims to kill a Jew hiding behind them. I mean that's what the text says.
Yes it does. But like many religions there are those that don't adhere to all of its tenets because they don't want to. There are those that do. Like there are Christians today or those that claim to be Christians who don't follow things taught by Christ or the apostles in how to conduct themselves in many situations. There are certainly Muslims who don't believe in killing all the Jews regardless of what their text says. I'm glad they don't.
 
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Slibhin

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I think you are incorrect. There is no doubt that the Jews have suffered under the Muslims and the Christians in history. You make a mistake that many make in assigning past experiences to today. Christians today by and large support Israel and the Jews. We are deeply sorry for your treatment in the past. But we support you today and have for some time. I grew up in an Evangelical church and we always had a strong connection to the Jews, Orthodox or not.

The US absolutely supports the Jews who live there. I don't understand at all why you would think otherwise.

As far as the religious beliefs are concerned yes we do believe that Christ will return and will rule while the Christians of ALL types will be with him. And a new Jerusalem will eventually be created for all the believers. But that is what the NT says and it's not because we hold any personal desire to own Jerusalem or the area. Quite frankly we don't really care where Christ comes or where he lives or where he rules as long as we are with him.

And I know that you don't believe any of it, but that's between you and G-d. Not between you and me.

If some Christian came to you and started trying to harm you I would be the first to your defense. I love G-d's chosen because it was through them that the Messiah was born and the very reason I am saved today.
The Nazi's were based on Christian nationalism and were within the last hundred years. Please spare me the "they weren't real Christians/No true Scotsman" fallacy rebuttals.

I've been physically assaulted and discriminated against many times by Christians personally. I'm one of the very few Jewish people in very Christian Ireland.

In my previous post I explained why I think what I do. They support Israel as far as it plays into their apocalyptic beliefs and because they think G-d will give them some kind of additional blessing if they do so. It has nothing to do with any particular love for us. I got called the Synagogue of Satan my very first day here, and regularly on other forums. If you ever visit Israel I've had Christians follow me around screaming at me. It's not some thing that happened in the distant past or a one in a million exception to the rule.

I don't think all Christians are antisemites, I was married to a Christian. However the evangelical strain of Christians, usually from the USA are not friendly to put it mildly.
 
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Jamdoc

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I don't accept Christian translations of the Tanakh. Satan does not appear in Numbers or Genesis, you are just inserting him into the roles of the serpent and the advisory against Balaam. Is is true that HaSatan is an advisory, he is also described as an angel of the L-rd. When you (and Christians) say "the devil", you are referring to a renegade angel who has some sort of quasi-omniscient ability to inflict evil and control people.

At no point is he ever depicted as such, nor are angels even able to rebel. He appears mostly in Job, and briefly in Chronicles and Zechariah, always as a divine accuser and never able to do anything without G-d's permission. Regardless, this is getting off topic.

Yes that is his current role in Christianity as well, the accuser, and the adversary.

But what does the verse I quoted from Zechariah 12 say in Hebrew then, if it does not refer to the house of David and inhabitants of Jerusalem mourning when they see the one they pierced?

and I'm on this topic because you see the Christians, who pray for your salvation, and believe in your people's redemption (as you are specifying Evangelicals), are the enemies, while the people who want your extinction, are somehow seen as allies and "not that bad"
 
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Jamdoc

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Yes it does. But like many religions there are those that don't adhere to all of its tenets because they don't want to. There are those that do. Like there are Christians today or those that claim to be Christians who don't follow things taught by Christ or the apostles in how to conduct themselves in many situations. There are certainly Muslims who don't believe in killing all the Jews regardless of what their text says. I'm glad they don't.

Okay so the reliance is on "Muslims" not actually believing their sacred texts and traditions.
I think that's a bad point to start on "they don't really believe what it says"
 
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Jamdoc

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The Nazi's were based on Christian nationalism and were within the last hundred years. Please spare me the "they weren't real Christians/No true Scotsman" fallacy rebuttals.

I've been physically assaulted and discriminated against many times by Christians personally. I'm one of the very few Jewish people in very Christian Ireland.

In my previous post I explained why I think what I do. They support Israel as far as it plays into their apocalyptic beliefs and because they think G-d will give them some kind of additional blessing if they do so. It has nothing to do with any particular love for us. I got called the Synagogue of Satan my very first day here, and regularly on other forums. If you ever visit Israel I've had Christians follow me around screaming at me. It's not some thing that happened in the distant past or a one in a million exception to the rule.

I don't think all Christians are antisemites, I was married to a Christian. However the evangelical strain of Christians, usually from the USA are not friendly to put it mildly.
It's not about a blessing for me.

It's because I see a plan of God's involved.
So many people yes so many Christians even believe that God is done with Israel, that they're chastised and have the wrath of God on them. But that's not what the Hebrew bible, or even the New Testament say. Both attest of Israel's eschatalogical regathering into their own land, and salvation.
and a lot of Christians don't see that many believe the Church "replaced" Israel. I don't. Paul wrote that the gentile Christians are "grafted in" to Israel as wild branches grafted into an olive tree., some of the natural branches were broken off in unbelief, but it is promised that they will be grafted back in. Paul explained that a partial blindness affected the Jews, until the "fullness of the Gentiles" are come in the Kingdom, and then God will lift their blindness and they will be saved.
It'll be a miracle.
Revelation has a remnant of Jews from 12 tribes (Dan and Ephraim are cut off and replaced by Joseph and Levi as tribes). Most of which are thought to be lost, at least as far as I'm aware, are there known Reubenites? Known Gadites? Issachar? Zebulun? As far as I know those tribes have been lost to the ages since the Assyrian conquest.
But Revelation has thousands of them being saved and marked by God. Imagine, people who are among the Jews, who are descendants of lost tribes, being identified (because God didn't lose them, we did). wouldn't that be a miracle? Thousands of years considered lost, and they're found.

Is that not worth praying for all by itself?
 
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JosephZ

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how do they interpret text about the trees and rocks asking Muslims to kill a Jew hiding behind them. I mean that's what the text says.
Are you able to talk to trees and rocks? Of course not, and neither can Muslims.

According to mainstream Islam, those hadiths you quoted are talking about a future event after the arivial of the anti-Christ. It occurs when Jesus returns to help the Muslims defeat the anti-Christ and his followers, who continue to reject God.

"Allah would send Jesus, son of Mary, and he would descend at the white minaret on the eastern side of Damascus, wearing two garments lightly dyed with saffron and placing his hands on the wings of two angels. When he would lower his head, there would fall beads of perspiration from his head, and when he would raise it up, beads like pearls would scatter from it. Every non-believer who would smell the odor of himself would die, and his breath would reach as far as he would be able to see. He would then search for the anti-Christ until he would catch hold of him at the gate of Ludd and kill him." (Sahih Muslim, 2937)

The hadith you quoted mentions Jews because they rejected Jesus when he was first sent to them as their messiah, and there will be some Jews who will reject him when he returns the second time. You will notice in the hadith you quoted that it does not say all Jews, only some.

Allah's Messenger said, "You (i.e., Muslims) will fight with the Jews until some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will betray them by saying, 'O `Abdullah* [Jesus]! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.'" (Sahih al-Bukhari, 2924)

*Abdullah means "servant" or "slave" of God.

[Jesus] said, “I am the slave of God. He has given me the Scripture, and made me a prophet." (Quran 32:30)

Jesus and the Muslims will fight together against the Jews, who are followers of the anti-Christ, and those who continue to reject God and his prophets. The trees and the stones will call out to Jesus during this great battle, and there will be no place for the unbelieving Jews to hide, and they will be destroyed.

However, all unbelievers will have an opportunity during this time of war and tribulation to repent.

We will make them taste the lesser torment [tribulation], prior to the greater torment [the day of judgement] so that they may return. (Qur'an 32:21)

They believe he will "break crosses" (end Christianity) and "kill pigs" (their euphemism for Jews) and end the Jizyah tax (a tax on non Muslims in Muslim controlled countries) why would he end that tax? Because it's conversion or death.
Below is the hadith where the breaking of crosses and the killing of pigs are mentioned:

Allah's Messenger said, "The hour will not be established until the son of Mary descends amongst you as a just ruler; he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 2476)

This hadith has nothing at all to do with killing Jews. The breaking of the cross and the killing of pigs are symbolic and refer to Christian beliefs about Jesus being crucified on the cross and how Christians have made it permissible to eat pigs when God had forbidden it. According to Islam (not me, as this is not what I believe), when Jesus returns, he will correct these false teachings (break the cross and kill the pigs), and the Jizya tax will be abolished since there will be only one religion, Islam.
 
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JosephZ

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I'm sure the military community appreciates you describing them as if they are mindless animals who need to be controlled, you must never have served or known anyone who has.
I'm a veteran, and yes, for someone to say that the military's purpose is to kill people and break things is an insult to those who have served and those currently serving. And you're right, the only people who say this are either those who have never served in the military or a few sociopathic current and former members of the military. The purpose of the military is to serve and protect the citizens of the state and to defend the state from both domestic and foreign enemies. Use of force is always the last resort, and the most successful missions are the ones where no shots are fired and the goal is still accomplished.
 
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