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A global flood is simply untenable

HarleyER

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One does not put faith in science. One looks at the evidence and decides.


There are legitmate YE scientists. They honestly admit that they put their faith in YE above the evidence. But they generally admit that the evidence supports an OE an evolution. Would you like to see some of that?

Yes.

The immaculate conception is a miracle, and not open to scientific investigation. Science can neither confirm nor deny miracles.

They wouldn't want you to. They would only hope you'd look at the evidence.


You can tell what gender one is genetically by whether or not they have a Y chromosome. Biological gender is easy. But social gender is a cultural construct. Like race, you have to decide which is important to you. There are biological races in some species, but in humans, race is just a cultural construct,

China. Most likely from miners who were exposed to bats in a cave in Hunan.
So, if scientists told you the immaculate conception is scientifically impossible and some Christian told you it actually happened, you are saying that you would "look at the evidence and decide"? Doesn't this seem a bit inconsistent? You are picking and choosing what to believe in. You don't believe in a YE because scientists tells you this is impossible. Yet you believe in the immaculate conception despite what scientists tells you.
 
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The Barbarian

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So, if scientists told you the immaculate conception is scientifically impossible
There are stupid scientists, but not many that stupid. As you learned, science can neither confirm nor deny miracles.
and some Christian told you it actually happened, you are saying that you would "look at the evidence and decide"?
One can only accept it or reject is on faith. Science can't help you, if your faith isn't sufficient.

Doesn't this seem a bit inconsistent?
It's the way it works. Science is a method, limited to the physical universe. It is troubling that creationists value faith so little that they seem to think science must fill in for lack of faith.

You are picking and choosing what to believe in.

My faith in God lets me believe only what I believe. Ich kann nicht anders.

You don't believe in a YE because scientists tells you this is impossible.
I know YE is false because the evidence shows that it's false, and God does not say the Earth is young. So both scientific and religious reasons to reject it.

Yet you believe in the immaculate conception despite what scientists tells you.
Because you don't understand science, you've invented things you want scientists to say. You're very wrong.
 
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HarleyER

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There are stupid scientists, but not many that stupid. As you learned, science can neither confirm nor deny miracles.

One can only accept it or reject is on faith. Science can't help you, if your faith isn't sufficient.


It's the way it works. Science is a method, limited to the physical universe. It is troubling that creationists value faith so little that they seem to think science must fill in for lack of faith.



My faith in God lets me believe only what I believe. Ich kann nicht anders.


I know YE is false because the evidence shows that it's false, and God does not say the Earth is young. So both scientific and religious reasons to reject it.


Because you don't understand science, you've invented things you want scientists to say. You're very wrong.
So, you base your faith in whatever you want to believe. Not exactly a model of solid faith. How on earth would you convey this to a non-believer? "Just believe whatever you want." Or. "These are the miracles to believe and these are not so." Sounds rather shakey, but typical Catholic.

Yes, I've been told many times that I'm very wrong so you're not the first. But your view of creationist is backwards. I would say that creationist value faith (e.g. what God has written) far more than those who want to agree with atheistic scientists.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that there are "religious reasons" to reject YE. What exactly are those religious reasons? Just because you say the "evidence shows that YE is false", doesn't make it so. If you would have seen an unmarried pregnant Mary what would you have concluded? What would those "scientists" have concluded? Who would have been right? It certainly wouldn't have been based on "evidence".

Your problem, like several others out on this forum, is you just want to take those miracles that makes you feel comfortable with in Scripture. Those that don't conform to your way of thinking or the world's way of thinking are rejected. This shows a lack of respect for God's Word, picking and choosing what one want to believe about Him. In the end, all one is doing is playing Christianity.

1 Kings 18:21 Elijah came near to all the people and said, “How long will you hesitate between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.” But the people did not answer him a word.
 
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The Barbarian

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So, you base your faith in whatever you want to believe.
I base it on the word of God. Not what I want to believe. I am not a YE creationist.

How on earth would you convey this to a non-believer?
I would explain the basics of Christianity, using His word.

"Just believe whatever you want."
No. I'm not a YE creationist.
Or. "These are the miracles to believe and these are not so."
No, I'm not a YE creationist.

Yes, I've been told many times that I'm very wrong so you're not the first.
There are a lot of faithful Christians in the world.

I would say that creationist value faith (e.g. what God has written
If you did, you'd accept it without your additions. Your problem is that, like most YE creationists, is you want to revise parts of God's word that make you feel comfortable.
 
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FaithT

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"I saw a video on the inteweb; it has to be true!" C'mon.


Your site is wrong. The Himalayas are not covered in marine fossils. They are made of marine fossils. This is because they are continental shelves pushed up into mountains when India moved north and collided with Asia. The other stuff on that site is equally foolish. If you doubt that, present what you think is the best evidence cited there, and we'll discuss it.
I don’t trust AIG anymore.
 
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HarleyER

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I base it on the word of God. Not what I want to believe. I am not a YE creationist.


I would explain the basics of Christianity, using His word.


No. I'm not a YE creationist.

No, I'm not a YE creationist.


There are a lot of faithful Christians in the world.


If you did, you'd accept it without your additions. Your problem is that, like most YE creationists, is you want to revise parts of God's word that make you feel comfortable.
I'm confused. What part do you think I want to revised?

Matthew 19:4 And He (sic: Jesus) answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Seems pretty clear to me.

I noticed that you really never answered my questions as to religious reasons or about Mary. Scientists states that we evolved from some primorial soup. Do you believe that as well?

Christians are duped into thinking as the world wants them to think. It is really the non-YE that doesn't want to accept what God has so plainly stated. I'm not the one who is referring to scientists instead of Scripture.
 
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The Barbarian

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I'm confused. What part do you think I want to revised?

Matthew 19:4 And He (sic: Jesus) answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Seems pretty clear to me.
Good example. In Genesis 1, God makes it clear what was there at the beginning, and male and female were not. You revised Jesus' words, assuming He didn't mean from the beginning of the human race. This is typical of creationist revisionism.

I noticed that you really never answered my questions as to religious reasons or about Mary.
I did, but you just didn't like the answers. If you'd like some clarification, ask.

Scientists states that we evolved from some primorial soup. Do you believe that as well?
God said that the Earth brought forth life, so scientists are just discovering what God said a long time ago, is true. I get that creationists don't agree with Him. But they should,

Christians are duped into thinking as the world wants them to think.
Christians are smarter than you think we are. Why don't you just accept it as God says?

I'm not the one who is referring to scientists instead of Scripture.
You;re the one who isn't willing to accept scripture as it is. And that's what keeps running you into walls.
 
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Diamond72

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You are picking and choosing what to believe in.
Not at all. Science is very limited in what they can do and accomplish. The Bible does not have these limitations. God is infinite. I would not be a Christian if science had answers and solutions. We know that nothing is impossible with God. He has all of the answers and all of the solutions. There is a prefix in Hebrew for all and also a prefix for none. God is all in all. There is no middle ground, there is no fence sitting. You are in or out with God.

Revelation 3:16 …15I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other! 16So because you are lukewarm— neither hot nor cold— I am will spew you out of My mouth!
 
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Diamond72

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God said that the Earth brought forth life, so scientists are just discovering what God said a long time ago, is true.
The main things is that Science shows all of the events of Genesis chapter one in order. If we were to read every science book in the world we would just be getting started in our understanding of Genesis Chapter one. We know that in the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.
The universe is around 13 billion years old and the earth is around 5 billion years old. That means the first day in the Bible was around 8 billion years. Day two was 4 billion, day 3 was 2 billion, day 4 was one billion, day five was 500 million and day six was 250 million.

So for example, we know God created man in the last 250 million years. This is when the dinosaurs died and Pangea was destroyed.
 
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HarleyER

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Good example. In Genesis 1, God makes it clear what was there at the beginning, and male and female were not. You revised Jesus' words, assuming He didn't mean from the beginning of the human race. This is typical of creationist revisionism.


I did, but you just didn't like the answers. If you'd like some clarification, ask.


God said that the Earth brought forth life, so scientists are just discovering what God said a long time ago, is true. I get that creationists don't agree with Him. But they should,


Christians are smarter than you think we are. Why don't you just accept it as God says?


You;re the one who isn't willing to accept scripture as it is. And that's what keeps running you into walls.
1) I'm not sure why you think I revised Jesus' words. My Scripture reference is from the NASB. I looked this up in the Greek Lexicon and the word for "beginning" is actually ἀρχῆς (origin). So really the text should have been more strongly translated "from the origin of man".

2) OK, I'm asking. You stated that "I know YE is false because the evidence shows that it's false, and God does not say the Earth is young. So both scientific and religious reasons to reject it. " What exactly are the religious reasons for rejecting YE?

3) As far as creationists not agreeing with God, I'm not sure what you are talking about. God modeled the weekdays after His creation:

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Now if it took millions of years, then it would have taken a very long time to get to the Sabbath.

Why don't I accept it as God says? Simply because He didn't say it.
 
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Diamond72

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Scientists states that we evolved from some primorial soup. Do you believe that as well?
Science say life began 3.7 billion years ago. The bible says life began on day three. Day three began 4 billion years ago. So science and the Bible agree. For those who want to know life produces oxygen and oxygen causes the iron to rust and we start to see red at this layer of geology. Just like oxygen turns out blood red. Actually the early atmosphere was pink or red and it became blue after the dinosaurs were destroyed.

Just as the universe began 13 billion years ago, the modern age or era we live in began 13,000 years ago. So for OEC a day is billions of years. For dispensationalism a day is 1,000 years.
 
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Diamond72

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Good example. In Genesis 1, God makes it clear what was there at the beginning, and male and female were not.
We were there. Science is just starting to understand just how entangled everything is.

Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

Quantum entanglement is the phenomenon of a group of particles being generated, interacting, or sharing spatial proximity in such a way that the quantum state of each particle of the group cannot be described independently of the state of the others, including when the particles are separated by a large distance.

How does quantum entanglement affect time?

In the weird world of quantum physics, two linked particles can share a single fate, even when they're miles apart. Now, two physicists have mathematically described how this spooky effect, called entanglement, could also bind particles across time.Jan 21, 2011
 
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HarleyER

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Science say life began 3.7 billion years ago. The bible says life began on day three. Day three began 4 billion years ago. So science and the Bible agree. For those who want to know life produces oxygen and oxygen causes the iron to rust and we start to see red at this layer of geology. Just like oxygen turns out blood red. Actually the early atmosphere was pink or red and it became blue after the dinosaurs were destroyed.

Just as the universe began 13 billion years ago, the modern age or era we live in began 13,000 years ago. So for OEC a day is billions of years. For dispensationalism a day is 1,000 years.
I can understand OEC but I no longer agree with it after a careful study of scripture. If one takes one day as a 1,000 years, then did it take God a 1,000 year to create Adam? Of course, not unless one want to go down the evolutionary path. So what one is left with is that, since different things took the same amount of time according to Genesis 1, then everything must have taken the same amount of time.

I used to hold to a belief that we simply don't know how long Adam and Eve lived in the Garden before they sinned. There is no record of the time they spent there and it could have been millions of years before they sinned and were cast out. The age of Adam, being 900+, could have been started from the time he sinned and not when he was created. I'm not sure if that is correct, and I don't believe it any longer. But it's plausible and I wouldn't rule it out.

Then there is the miracle of Christ turning the water into fine wine. Not only did Christ change the nature of the water, but He aged it so that it would be the very best. This happened in a moment of time, yet the wedding guests never knew. If science had tested the wine, they would have said that it was probably a 150BC Cabernet. Couldn't the earth be similar?

One has to conform their minds to the scriptures and not to what the world tells us. This isn't blind faith but there is much we don't know or understand and much of science is simply conjecture.
 
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Diamond72

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If one takes one day as a 1,000 years, then did it take God a 1,000 year to create Adam?
It took God 13 Billion years to create Adam. Ephesians 1:4 "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight" You can do a study of the scriptures that talk about how we were with God from the beginning.

In dispensationalism a day is 1,000 years. The modern age or era began 13,000 years ago, There was a extinction at the time and animals like saber tooth tigers and wholly mammoth's died off. We are very close to the 1,000 year reign of Christ. Then at the end of 14,000 years there will be a new heaven and a new earth.

Mammoths look like elephants but they had long fur to keep them warm. Just like the saber tooth looked like a tiger today. Do we trust science that puts days, weeks, month, years and even a whole life into their study. Or do we trust the people who come up with an opinion in about five seconds. Science calls this a hypothesis and we have to do research to offer something in the way of evidence that supports our hypothesis.

If you go to a doctor, if you buy a car do you want unsubstantiated opinions or established facts? Would you go to a doctor that put five minutes of thought into being a doctor or someone with a medical degree? Lots of people attend a church with a pastor that only has a two year associate degree. I want to go to a main line denomination where the pastor has a lot more effort to be a college graduate and go to seminary so he as least has a master degree level of education.

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HarleyER

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It took God 13 Billion years to create Adam. Ephesians 1:4 "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight" You can do a study of the scriptures that talk about how we were with God from the beginning.

In dispensationalism a day is 1,000 years. The modern age or era began 13,000 years ago, There was a extinction at the time and animals like saber tooth tigers and wholly mammoth's died off. We are very close to the 1,000 year reign of Christ. Then at the end of 14,000 years there will be a new heaven and a new earth.

Mammoths look like elephants but they had long fur to keep them warm. Just like the saber tooth looked like a tiger today. Do we trust science that puts days, weeks, month, years and even a whole life into their study. Or do we trust the people who come up with an opinion in about five seconds. Science calls this a hypothesis and we have to do research to offer something in the way of evidence that supports our hypothesis.

If you go to a doctor, if you buy a car do you want unsubstantiated opinions or established facts? Would you go to a doctor that put five minutes of thought into being a doctor or someone with a medical degree? Lots of people attend a church with a pastor that only has a two year associate degree. I want to go to a main line denomination where the pastor has a lot more effort to be a college graduate and go to seminary so he as least has a master degree level of education.

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I don't need to do a study on how we were with God from the beginning. We were not. We are not eternal. Every one of us is made and fashioned by God in the womb.

Job 10:8 ‘Your hands fashioned and made me altogether,
And would You destroy me?
9 ‘Remember now, that You have made me as clay;
And would You turn me into dust again?
10 ‘Did You not pour me out like milk
And curdle me like cheese;
11 Clothe me with skin and flesh,
And knit me together with bones and sinews?
12 ‘You have granted me life and lovingkindness;
And Your care has preserved my spirit.
Psalm 139:13 For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.

I would suggest a serious study of the Ephesian text. God chose us from the beginning because He foreknew (knew what He wanted to do) and predestined us (set His plan in motion) to accomplish His will for His good pleasure. Each one of us is here for God's purpose at the right time and place, to enact God's will.

I can't even begin to calculate how you arrived at 13,000 years even using a "day is like a 1,000 years". If this were true, then shouldn't Genesis state that it took God 13 days to create Adam?

As for unsubstantiated opinions or established facts, I learned a long time ago that the only thing that is an established fact is the Word of God. It is the Pearl of Great Price. Everything else is suspect and should be treated as such. We are to conform the world around us to the Scriptures. We do not conform the Scriptures to what the world tells us. I don't need a scientist to tell me there are 77 different sexes when the Scriptures tell me there are only two. And I know what "scientists" would tell me about a virgin birth. But I trust them when I have to drive over a bridge that they got their math straight.

Does this mean the Bible has the answers to wooly manmoths or dinosaurs? No. All I know is that whatever one wants to conjure up about them is just nothing more than pure speculation. No one knows and there isn't any way to prove anything one way or the other.

Finding a good church these days is difficult. I would suggest listening to John MacArthur's sermons at www.gty.org or Alistair Begg at www.truthforlife.org. They are free and you can get them on YouTube. Both are very learned men and have a lot on the ball. I don't always agree with everything, but they are a great resource.
 
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FaithT

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It took God 13 Billion years to create Adam. Ephesians 1:4 "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight" You can do a study of the scriptures that talk about how we were with God from the beginning.

In dispensationalism a day is 1,000 years. The modern age or era began 13,000 years ago, There was a extinction at the time and animals like saber tooth tigers and wholly mammoth's died off. We are very close to the 1,000 year reign of Christ. Then at the end of 14,000 years there will be a new heaven and a new earth.

Mammoths look like elephants but they had long fur to keep them warm. Just like the saber tooth looked like a tiger today. Do we trust science that puts days, weeks, month, years and even a whole life into their study. Or do we trust the people who come up with an opinion in about five seconds. Science calls this a hypothesis and we have to do research to offer something in the way of evidence that supports our hypothesis.

If you go to a doctor, if you buy a car do you want unsubstantiated opinions or established facts? Would you go to a doctor that put five minutes of thought into being a doctor or someone with a medical degree? Lots of people attend a church with a pastor that only has a two year associate degree. I want to go to a main line denomination where the pastor has a lot more effort to be a college graduate and go to seminary so he as least has a master degree level of education.

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Some churches have pastors who didn’t go to school or train at all to become pastors. I wouldn’t be comfortable with that, at all. I went to a church like that one time, and when I emailed them, asking questions about the level of training their pastor had it was like pulling teeth to get them to answer my questions. They finally admitted that he didnt go to school to be a pastor. I guess he just woke up one day and decided he knew enough to lead a huge congregation.
 
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Diamond72

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They finally admitted that he didnt go to school to be a pastor.
Anyone can preach a sermon. It is the work of the Holy Spirit. The problem is in counseling people and helping them with their problems.
also their doctrine can be very questionable.
 
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