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piracty always a sin

zippy2006

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I don't think that having an unpopular opinion is against forum rules.
Is it illegal to have an unpopular opinion in your country? What if that unpopular opinion is to deny the Holocaust?

It just so happens that distinctions and epikeia exist.
 
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Nithavela

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Is it illegal to have an unpopular opinion in your country? What if that unpopular opinion is to deny the Holocaust?

It just so happens that distinctions and epikeia exist.
Nothing you wrote matters.
 
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Whyayeman

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So whaddya think... which of us is more ethical?
I won't be joining a virtue contest, but I am glad you see that breaching copyright rules is a form of stealing.

Part of my income derives from my own copyright material. I hope you will see that for writers and artists it is a bit more more than a mere stroll round Morality Street.
 
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Nithavela

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I won't be joining a virtue contest, but I am glad you see that breaching copyright rules is a form of stealing.

Part of my income derives from my own copyright material. I hope you will see that for writers and artists it is a bit more more than a mere stroll round Morality Street.
What kind of material do you create?
 
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partinobodycular

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Part of my income derives from my own copyright material. I hope you will see that for writers and artists it is a bit more more than a mere stroll round Morality Street.

Then on behalf of anyone who has caused you any harm, may I say that I never meant to. The world has a tendency to desensitize us, not because we're bad people, but just because we're people. So here's hoping the best for you and yours. And here's hoping that you'll understand that the harm we do, isn't always because we intend to, but simply because the world insulates us from it, or so we think.

Hence my favorite verse, do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with thy God. And in this case, if I were to add anything, it would be to forgive others in a greater measure than they have been required to forgive me.

Yeah, I know that you're an atheist, but sometimes the sentiment still matters.
 
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Ophiolite

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Ethics, fairness. The desire to have a system that allows continual exchange of items of value.

You assume everything comes from your God, but that is not the case. Civilizations and ethics come from people trying to live together over time.

Otherwise, we would be reduced to roving bands of robbers and warlords.

In the case of the artisan, whose value has none, they may stop creating or selling to people who prefer AI. Same with the game designer, they may just stop creating if their game is going to be stolen.

You assume there is nothing to prevent things from being stolen, but that is why there are laws.
Thank you for posting this, for two reasons:
First, it was an excellent summary of why @partinobodycular 's view was selfish.
Secondly, because it made unnecessary my post that would have likely got me kicked off the forum.
 
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Whyayeman

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Then on behalf of anyone who has caused you any harm, may I say that I never meant to. The world has a tendency to desensitize us, not because we're bad people, but just because we're people.
You have stolen copyright material and that is your excuse? I know that ripping off music and games is often seen as victimless and stealing from the rich seems harmless.

It is still a crime. Just remember that.
 
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partinobodycular

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You have stolen copyright material and that is your excuse? I know that ripping off music and games is often seen as victimless and stealing from the rich seems harmless.

So I offer you a sincere apology, knowing full well that I've never harmed you at all, and this is your response, none-the-less the apology stands. It is and always will be irrevocable.

It is still a crime. Just remember that.

What is or isn't a crime doesn't concern me very much. What is or isn't ethical does. Methinks that you've conflated the two, but that's your prerogative. I'll continue to do as my conscience dictates, if this means doing things that you don't like... as I said, I'm sorry. Not worth much I know, but it's the best you're gonna get.
 
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mikeforjesus

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I believe pirating may be a sin always so should not do to be safe because you can do without it. Doing the right thing is harder but is right.

I know it is not fair some can do things others cant but you have to accept your situation.

Maybe but I dont know if you are struggling to make ends meet may be necessary to pirate not to lose all money and to help you succeed so you dont be in want and help repay back when you are successful but if you will never struggle to provide your needs is wrong.
 
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Whyayeman

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What is or isn't a crime doesn't concern me very much. What is or isn't ethical does. Methinks that you've conflated the two,
I am glad you recognise that copyright infringements are a form of stealing. That has been my one and only point here.

If you have an ethical framework which justifies dishonesty - you are welcome to it. It can't be worth much.
 
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Neogaia777

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It's a gray area, etc. Maybe still wrong, or a sin, and might sometimes depend on what it is, or who you are taking it from, etc, but technically, still probably wrong, or a sin, etc.

Why makes it a gray area is this world, and it's systems right now, etc. So you may have balance it accordingly, as it doesn't always have to be entirely selfish or entirely self-serving only always, etc, and some of it sometimes can maybe even actually be considered just sometimes, etc. But again, that is because of this world and it's systems right now, so you may have to weigh it in the balance scales, or scales of balance accordingly, etc.

I highly doubt it's (most of it) is going to send you to hell on judgement day, etc.

And most people have other things (sins) that they should probably be much, much more worried about, etc.

Because absolute perfection is not the goal here, and God has compassion upon the poor, etc.

God Bless.
 
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partinobodycular

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I am glad you recognise that copyright infringements are a form of stealing.

Just so that we're clear on this point, I think that the blanket statement that copyright infringement is a form of stealing... is wrong.

I say this with the stipulation that this thread is about what's ethical, not what's legal. To you, these may be one and the same thing, but to me they're definitely not. I'm always trying to determine the greater good, and to me the greater good isn't determined simply by monetary value, but by what society gains as a whole. Even if what it gains seems relatively insignificant. The compassion of society is far more important to me than what is often an insignificant monetary gain.

This is particularly relevant in the case of the poor and indigent, wherein the choice is either gain access to something by less than legal means, or do without it entirely... the higher the burden this choice places on someone, the more likely I am to simply overlook what's legal, and go with what my heart tells me is right.

There's a difference between someone who's perfectly capable of paying for something, but simply chooses not to, and a person for whom the choice really is a struggle. The very fact that the choice is hard, suggests to me that their heart is in the right place, and that in the long run society will gain more from turning a blind eye than they ever could by sticking to the letter of the law. Compassion, or the lack thereof, has side effects.

I would also like to acknowledge that there may be people reading this discussion who are confused, because they consider me to be a generally thoughtful and reasonable person. But in this case they may vehemently disagree with me, and that's fine, we don't have to agree on everything. But hopefully I've at least clarified my position, such that my intention isn't as irrational as it may at first seem.
 
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Neogaia777

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Just so that we're clear on this point, I think that the blanket statement that copyright infringement is a form of stealing... is wrong.

I say this with the stipulation that this thread is about what's ethical, not what's legal. To you, these may be one and the same thing, but to me they're definitely not. I'm always trying to determine the greater good, and to me the greater good isn't determined simply by monetary value, but by what society gains as a whole. Even if what it gains seems relatively insignificant. The compassion of society is far more important to me than what is often an insignificant monetary gain.

This is particularly relevant in the case of the poor and indigent, wherein the choice is either gain access to something by less than legal means, or do without it entirely... the higher the burden this choice places on someone, the more likely I am to simply overlook what's legal, and go with what my heart tells me is right.

There's a difference between someone who's perfectly capable of paying for something, but simply chooses not to, and a person for whom the choice really is a struggle. The very fact that the choice is hard, suggests to me that their heart is in the right place, and that in the long run society will gain more from turning a blind eye than they ever could by sticking to the letter of the law. Compassion, or the lack thereof, has side effects.

I would also like to acknowledge that there may be people reading this discussion who are confused, because they consider me to be a generally thoughtful and reasonable person. But in this case they may vehemently disagree with me, and that's fine, we don't have to agree on everything. But hopefully I've at least clarified my position, such that my intention isn't as irrational as it may at first seem.
I created this thread here (below) if you'd like to give your opinion, or participate, etc.


Take Care/God Bless.
 
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Whyayeman

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To you, these may be one and the same thing, but to me they're definitely not. I'm always trying to determine the greater good, and to me the greater good isn't determined simply by monetary value, but by what society gains as a whole.
I have repeatedly said that the ethics do not concern me here. Most people don't care much about the greater good when somebody steals their property.

Society gains nothing from dishonesty and that is why every society I can think of has punished thieves.

Everybody gives Robin Hood a cheer when he takes from the rich to give to the poor, but he was an outlaw. The ethics of property ownership may be an issue for this forum (and you are welcome to start such a discussion, of course), but please don't muddy the water with a spurious defence of petty theft.
 
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Neogaia777

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@Whyayeman

I'm guessing your not on the bottom rung, and maybe never have been, etc.

But and/or anyway, so you don't really care about what is truly right (ethical/truly just, etc), but only care if someone is taking your intellectual or artistic property?

Well, have you ever considered that may be just exactly why someone else is trying to take your artistic or intellectual property in the first place, etc? And doesn't give a darn about that, etc?

Sin everywhere and among everyone is the problem, and that's probably never going to end/change, etc.

People will probably all still always be doing injury to each other to their own injury, etc.

Especially when none ever cares about what is truly right, etc.

I'm not trying to justify anything here, but am just pointing out that no one ever really truly cares about what is truly right, etc.

Not those on the top, and not those on the bottom, so why would any of them care about downloading a few songs, or taking a few older video games/movies, etc.

God Bless.
 
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partinobodycular

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Society gains nothing from dishonesty and that is why every society I can think of has punished thieves.

Well then let me point out the ancient Hebrews who were required to leave the edges of their fields for the poor... to 'steal'. I think that such consideration for the poor was probably practiced in some manner by most civilized societies. And even if society doesn't require such consideration for the poor, it's still the ethical thing to do.

I have repeatedly said that the ethics do not concern me here.

Well there's our impasse, you don't care about ethics, and in a choice between what's legal and what's ethical I'll do my best to fulfill them both, but if I can't, I'll do what's ethical. Yes, even if that means someone 'stealing' what's yours or mine.
 
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Whyayeman

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I have not said that I do not care about ethics. I have argued moral issues many times on these forums. I do not believe I have been cheated in this way. You just have to open a book to see how carefully this is explained; the law protects authors from piracy.

Any ethical justification people might offer for the theft of intellectual property must include justifying the stealing of food from a supermarket or mugging a stranger on the street.
 
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Whyayeman

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@Whyayeman

I'm guessing your not on the bottom rung, and maybe never have been, etc.

But and/or anyway, so you don't really care about what is truly right (ethical/truly just, etc), but only care if someone is taking your intellectual or artistic property?

Well, have you ever considered that may be just exactly why someone else is trying to take your artistic or intellectual property in the first place, etc? And doesn't give a darn about that, etc?

Sin everywhere and among everyone is the problem, and that's probably never going to end/change, etc.

People will probably all still always be doing injury to each other to their own injury, etc.

Especially when none ever cares about what is truly right, etc.

I'm not trying to justify anything here, but am just pointing out that no one ever really truly cares about what is truly right, etc.

Not those on the top, and not those on the bottom, so why would any of them care about downloading a few songs, or taking a few older video games/movies, etc.

God Bless.
I am sot struggling financially, but many artists are and the theft of their intellectual property is a serious concern for them. Fortunately the laws are clear.

You say that you are not trying to justify anything here, but just pointing out that no one ever really truly cares about what is truly right, etc. I disagree. Artists, writers and musicians care about this issue.
 
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