Many watery baptisms.

[Xeno.of.athens]

This is an interesting video about baptisms in various denominations and churches.

 

[bling]

Could they all be right or could they all be wrong?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Could they all be right or could they all be wrong?

It is more likely that one is right and many are not.

 

[bling]

It is more likely that one is right and many are not.

I knew a Catholic priest who baptized adult believer by immersion in water members of his congregation, even encouraging those previously baptized as a baby, so was he wrong to do so?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I knew a Catholic priest who baptized adult believer by immersion in water members of his congregation, even encouraging those previously baptized as a baby, so was he wrong to do so?

The scriptures tell us that there is one baptism with the implication that there are not two or more. It is wrong to teach contrary to the clear statements of the scriptures.

 

[bling]

The scriptures tell us that there is one baptism with the implication that there are not two or more. It is wrong to teach contrary to the clear statements of the scriptures.

I agree and we know adult believer baptism (immersion) was done.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I agree and we know adult believer baptism (immersion) was done.

we do not know that submersion was done; that is a presumption.

 

[bling]

we do not know that submersion was done; that is a presumption.

Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.

John 3:23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized.

You do not need much water or the people to go down into the water if it is not immersion. So, do you believe John was not immersing people in water?



Acts 8: 36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?”… 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water,

This time we are talking about Christian baptism and we again have them going down into the water and coming up out of the water, which would not be needed if it was not immersion.

1 Peter 3: In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The ark was surrounded by water and Jesus was completely buried.

Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

You do not bury a person by putting dirt on his head.

There are also different Greek words for sprinkling and poring, not bapteso

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.

John 3:23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized.

You do not need much water or the people to go down into the water if it is not immersion. So, do you believe John was not immersing people in water?



Acts 8: 36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?”… 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water,

This time we are talking about Christian baptism and we again have them going down into the water and coming up out of the water, which would not be needed if it was not immersion.

1 Peter 3: In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The ark was surrounded by water and Jesus was completely buried.

Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

You do not bury a person by putting dirt on his head.

There are also different Greek words for sprinkling and poring, not bapteso

not one of those passages says anybody was submerged.

 

[tampasteve]

Being as Baptism is a adaption, elevation even of the ritual Mikvah use we can be fairly confident that full immersion was the initial practice. Whether full immersion is needed to effect a Baptism as it is not actually the same act as using a Mikvah is another matter. I lean that it is not necessary for a Baptism as the ritual and sacrament are not the same.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Being as Baptism is a adaption, elevation even of the ritual Mikvah use we can be fairly confident that full immersion was the initial practice. Whether full immersion is needed to effect a Baptism as it is not actually the same act as using a Mikvah is another matter. I lean that it is not necessary for a Baptism as the ritual and sacrament are not the same.

That is speculation not exegesis of any passage.

 

[tampasteve]

That is speculation not exegesis of any passage.

Not really, Mikvah use was a central part (and still is for Orthodox) of Jewish life. I am not saying Mikvah use is the same thing as Baptism, rather that it is a shadow of what was to come. Rivers and lakes can be used as Mikvah to this day, and Jewish people would have been very familiar with this. Further, the act of conversion to Judaism also includes a full immersion in Mikvah, not unlike a full immersion Baptism.

I don't hold any issues with sprinkling baptism, FWIW. I think to require full immersion is legalistic to a degree not found in the text or Tradition.

 

[bling]

not one of those passages says anybody was submerged.

Strong's #907: baptizo (pronounced bap-tid'-zo)
from a derivative of 911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution,
especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:--Baptist, baptize, wash.
We transliterate the Greek word baptizo and say baptize, but the original first century Greek translation for the word into English is immerse.

It would be wrong to say immersion baptism since that would be: "baptizo baptizo", they are the same word.
There is nothing mentioned about pouring or sprinkling.

 

[WilliamC]

not one of those passages says anybody was submerged.

Lets see...how does the old statement go?... "There is none so blind as those who choose not to see".

Lets reexamine... First, we have Bling's Scriptural support:

Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.

John 3:23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized.

You do not need much water or the people to go down into the water if it is not immersion. So, do you believe John was not immersing people in water?

Acts 8: 36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?”… 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water,

This time we are talking about Christian baptism and we again have them going down into the water and coming up out of the water, which would not be needed if it was not immersion.

1 Peter 3: In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The ark was surrounded by water and Jesus was completely buried.

Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

You do not bury a person by putting dirt on his head.

There are also different Greek words for sprinkling and poring, not bapteso.



Now, all we need is your support from Scripture, after all you said:
"It is wrong to teach contrary to the clear statements of the scriptures."
Please... show us a statement from the Scriptures, where it teaches that sprinkling was the primary mode for baptism?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Not really, Mikvah use was a central part (and still is for Orthodox) of Jewish life.

You write as if Judaism as it is now is the same as Judaism in Jesus' day; it isn't. When Jesus was walking the Earth the temple had priests, sacrifices, and was obedient to the Law's sacrificial requirements, Judaism nowadays has no temple, makes no sacrifices, and is in open and blatant disobedience to the Law's sacrificial requirements. "Mikvah" just isn't relevant unless there is some direct evidence that John the Baptist and Jesus intended baptism to be an extension of a mikvah. So, your explanation is back in the territory of speculation and far away from exegesis.

I think to require full immersion is legalistic to a degree not found in the text or Tradition.

Agreed.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Strong's #907: baptizo (pronounced bap-tid'-zo)
from a derivative of 911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution,
especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:--Baptist, baptize, wash.
We transliterate the Greek word baptizo and say baptize, but the original first century Greek translation for the word into English is immerse.

It would be wrong to say immersion baptism since that would be: "baptizo baptizo", they are the same word.
There is nothing mentioned about pouring or sprinkling.

Where I a Baptist I'd accept your story, but I am not, so I do not accept it.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The ark was surrounded by water and Jesus was completely buried.

Noah has a ship; he did not have a submarine. The ark was not submerged at any time.

 

[WilliamC]

Noah has a ship; he did not have a submarine. The ark was not submerged at any time.

that was a Bling quote.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

that was a Bling quote.

Do you mean that what you wrote was a "bling quote"?

 

[RileyG]

I knew a Catholic priest who baptized adult believer by immersion in water members of his congregation, even encouraging those previously baptized as a baby, so was he wrong to do so?

That's wrong. One needs to be baptized in water validly once.