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A global flood is simply untenable

Derf

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If we don't know when their speciation occurred, then we simply don't know. It sounds like you're trying to argue that speciation could occur after single generations on the bases that the timing of speciation is unknown for some.

This of course doesn't make any sense.


Some have done calculations in the topic, such as in the video above.
I watched most of the video. I think they are severely mistaken about what Answers in Genesis was saying. For some reason your video tried to put all of the speciation of elephantine animals in the history of the planet into the period after the flood, but before Abraham (or maybe before Babel). Are you saying there were NO elephant types before the flood? Are you saying that we have dated all elephant fossils to the period between the flood and Abraham? If they were all after the flood, then where did Noah get elephants to put on the ark?

The video did provide some interesting information. It said that elephants like to interbreed between "species". I'm not sure how universal a claim such as that could be, considering how few species we have to work with today. Can you explain what they mean? And isn't it an oxymoron to say that different species interbreed a lot? What it seems to show, if true, is that species and subspecies of elephants don't even fit the category of "species" by your own definition. So, would you like to restate the question?
 
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Job 33:6

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I watched most of the video. I think they are severely mistaken about what Answers in Genesis was saying. For some reason your video tried to put all of the speciation of elephantine animals in the history of the planet into the period after the flood, but before Abraham (or maybe before Babel). Are you saying there were NO elephant types before the flood? Are you saying that we have dated all elephant fossils to the period between the flood and Abraham? If they were all after the flood, then where did Noah get elephants to put on the ark?

The video did provide some interesting information. It said that elephants like to interbreed between "species". I'm not sure how universal a claim such as that could be, considering how few species we have to work with today. Can you explain what they mean? And isn't it an oxymoron to say that different species interbreed a lot? What it seems to show, if true, is that species and subspecies of elephants don't even fit the category of "species" by your own definition. So, would you like to restate the question?
I'm not sure if you watched the whole video but your question is addressed at about 29 minutes in by factoring in pre-flood diversification. Right after noting that elephants would have to mutate faster than viruses to account for such rapid diversification.

Answers in Genesis has defined its own timeline. And even if given 6,000 years, the rate of diversification still wouldn't make any sense and would be bizarrely rapid in the sense that every time an animal gave birth, a new species would be born.

Beyond that, honestly I'm not interested in debating topics that AiG itself is internally contradictory on. It's just a hot mess.

And then to even consider your response, the rate of speciation doesn't make any sense. The idea that elephants had diversified but that none of their fossils are found in flood strata. And then Noah would have somehow had space on the ark for multiple or numerous elephant species and all their foods for a year, and then all post flood fossils would actually be a mix of pre and post flood species.

Note the videos simple math that even at just 15 elephant "kinds", they and their food would take up some 60% of the arks space, just then alone. Let alone the rest of the world's animal kingdom.

None of it makes any sense.

If you have a problem with AiG lumping all elephants together under the single "kind" probiscidia, and defining timelines that are impossibly short, you can take it up with them. I don't quite care to engage in their mess.

And I don't think I ever mentioned anything about what species are or how they're defined either. I'm not sure if you're confusing me with barbarian or someone else.

I'd recommend just saving yourself the time and simply recognizing that Genesis describes 3-tiered ancient near east cosmology, and not modern geology or astronomy.

And not only that but the narrative of Noah's flood is largely polemic against the narrative of the mesopotamian apkallu.


The context is ancient near eastern. And this is blatantly obvious to anyone who's familiar with ancient near east literature.
 
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Job 33:6

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It sounded like you're challenging the understood reality that speciation events take many generations. That's just how I perceived your comments. Its fine if that's not what you meant to do.

There really are just lots and lots of challenges, scientifically with YECism. And everyone knows it. Oodles of challenges. A lot of things that logically don't appear to add up.

And, simultaneously, the context of the Bible also indicates that Genesis isn't about science, nor does it teach science, nor does it teach things such as the age of the earth. The context is ancient near eastern. Genesis describes ancient near east cosmology. And it's about temple construction. See Isaiah 66:1-2 for a better understanding of God's rest on the 7th day.

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭66:1‭-‬2‬
[1] Thus says the Lord: Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; so what kind of house could you build for me, what sort of place for me to rest? [2] All these things my hand has made, so all these things are mine, says the Lord.

It's about God building His temple. Then when the temple is complete, that is the cosmos, God rests on the throne.

And that's what God does in every other temple in the old testament. God does that with the tabernacle. God does it with solomons temple. God does it with ezekiels temple etc. see Ezekiel chapter 43 for example. When the temple is constructed, God dwells among His people.

“But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Even heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you, much less this house that I have built!
Hear the plea of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place; O hear in heaven your dwelling place; hear and forgive.
1 King‬ ‭8:27‬ ‭

So Solomon held the feast at that time, and all Israel with him, a great assembly, from Lebo-hamath to the Brook of Egypt, before the Lord our God, seven days.
1 Kings 8:65

And you shall not go outside the entrance of the tent of meeting for seven days, until the days of your ordination are completed, for it will take seven days to ordain you.
Leviticus 8:33

temple priest ordination in 7 days.

And in the eleventh year, in the month of Bul, which is the eighth month, the house was finished in all its parts, and according to all its specifications. He was seven years in building it.
1 Kings 6:38

The Temple constructed in 7 years.

And all the men of Israel assembled to King Solomon at the feast in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month.
1 Kings 8:2

‭‭
“But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Even heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you, much less this house that I have built!
Hear the plea of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place; O hear in heaven your dwelling place; hear and forgive.
1 King‬ ‭8:27‬ ‭

Inauguation feast on the 7th month.

So Solomon held the feast at that time, and all Israel with him, a great assembly, from Lebo-hamath to the Brook of Egypt, before the Lord our God, seven days.
1 Kings 8:65

Temple inauguration feast on the 7th day.

temple dedicated to God on the 7th day of the 7th month, after 7 years, and what does God do?

And I will dwell among the Israelites, and I will not forsake my people Israel.”
1 Kings 6:13

As the glory of the Lord entered the temple by the gate facing east, the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple. While the man was standing beside me, I heard one speaking to me out of the temple, and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever. And the house of Israel shall no more defile my holy name, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoring and by the dead bodies of their kings at their high places,
Ezekiel 43:4‭-‬7 ESV


And God of course dwells in the temple where God rests and rules.

Until I find a place for the Lord, A dwelling place for the Mighty One of Jacob.” Let’s go into His dwelling place; Let’s worship at His footstool. Arise, Lord, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your strength. ¶For the Lord has chosen Zion; He has desired it as His dwelling place. “This is My resting place forever; Here I will dwell [sit enthroned NIV], for I have desired it.
Psalms 132:5‭, ‬7‭-‬8‭, ‬13‭-‬14

Genesis is not about the age of the earth or earth sciences. It's about a 7-day temple inauguration where on the 7th day, God takes up the throne to rule. It doesn't have anything to do with science.
And as usual, I'll just remind you @Derf that the Bible is not written in a 21st century context. See the above quote.

You should be aware that Genesis describes 3-tiered ancient near east cosmology, not modern geology or astronomy or anything similar.

You could save yourself decades of time by just reading the Bible in context.
 
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Job 33:6

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I watched most of the video. I think they are severely mistaken about what Answers in Genesis was saying. For some reason your video tried to put all of the speciation of elephantine animals in the history of the planet into the period after the flood, but before Abraham (or maybe before Babel). Are you saying there were NO elephant types before the flood? Are you saying that we have dated all elephant fossils to the period between the flood and Abraham? If they were all after the flood, then where did Noah get elephants to put on the ark?
YECism, it would have been a valid, honorable, Biblical position, in the 60s. And definitely going back to the scopes trials in the 20s and 30s.

But you have to understand. Biblical scholarship has moved on. Enough is known about the context of the Bible, that it's known, comfortably, by a consensus of old testament scholars, that the Bible is written in an ancient near east context.

With discoveries of things like the dead sea scrolls for example. As Biblical texts are discovered, their context is illuminated. As other documents of qumran are discovered, the context of scripture is illuminated.

And the Bibles context, Genesis more specifically, and the old testament, is of the ancient near east.

And what that means, quite simply, is that Genesis is not talking about the age of the earth. It's talking about God's temple.

The 7 days are not about the age of the earth. They're about a temple. And the Bible tells us that plainly. See my quoted passages.
 
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Job 33:6

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YECism, it would have been a valid, honorable, Biblical position, in the 60s. And definitely going back to the scopes trials in the 20s and 30s.

But you have to understand. Biblical scholarship has moved on. Enough is known about the context of the Bible, that it's known, comfortably, by a consensus of old testament scholars, that the Bible is written in an ancient near east context.

With discoveries of things like the dead sea scrolls for example. As Biblical texts are discovered, their context is illuminated. As other documents of qumran are discovered, the context of scripture is illuminated.

And the Bibles context, Genesis more specifically, and the old testament, is of the ancient near east.

And what that means, quite simply, is that Genesis is not talking about the age of the earth. It's talking about God's temple.

The 7 days are not about the age of the earth. They're about a temple. And the Bible tells us that plainly. See my quoted passages.
Here's some summary texts to help, @Derf

Just look at what the Bible says. The 7th day, God rests. Well what does that mean? The Bible tells us plainly, God rests on His throne. The throne of His temple.

And 7 days is even noted as the time of Solomons temple inauguration and a 7 day feast, after construction in 7 years completed on the 7th month. And the tabernacle is constructed in 7 stages. The temple imagery is blatant in Genesis with Adam and Eve given priestly duties. The ancient near east temples throughout the Bible and in History are also universally decorated to reflect heaven on earth.

It just is what it is. Genesis is talking about a temple. And everyone who has studied Genesis knows this. It has nothing to do with the age of the earth.

This is what the Lord says: “Heaven is My throne and the earth is the footstool for My feet. Where then is a house [temple] you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?
Isaiah 66:1

The Lord is in His holy temple; the Lord’s throne is in heaven; His eyes see, His eyelids test the sons of mankind.
Psalms 11:4

“Now then arise, Lord God, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your might; let Your priests, Lord God, be clothed with salvation, and let Your godly ones rejoice in what is good.
2 Chronicles 6:41

Until I find a place for the Lord, A dwelling place for the Mighty One of Jacob.” Let’s go into His dwelling place; Let’s worship at His footstool. Arise, Lord, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your strength. ¶For the Lord has chosen Zion; He has desired it as His dwelling place. “This is My resting place forever; Here I will dwell [sit enthroned NIV], for I have desired it.
Psalms 132:5‭, ‬7‭-‬8‭, ‬13‭-‬14

And you shall not go outside the entrance of the tent of meeting for seven days, until the days of your ordination are completed, for it will take seven days to ordain you.
Leviticus 8:33

temple priest ordination in 7 days.

And in the eleventh year, in the month of Bul, which is the eighth month, the house was finished in all its parts, and according to all its specifications. He was seven years in building it.
1 Kings 6:38

The Temple constructed in 7 years.

And all the men of Israel assembled to King Solomon at the feast in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month.
1 Kings 8:2

“But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Even heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you, much less this house that I have built!
Hear the plea of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place; O hear in heaven your dwelling place; hear and forgive.
1 King‬ ‭8:27‬ ‭

Inauguation feast on the 7th month.

So Solomon held the feast at that time, and all Israel with him, a great assembly, from Lebo-hamath to the Brook of Egypt, before the Lord our God, seven days.
1 Kings 8:65

Temple inauguration feast, seven days.

temple dedicated to God on the 7th day of the 7th month, after 7 years, and what does God do?

And I will dwell among the Israelites, and I will not forsake my people Israel.”
1 Kings 6:13

As the glory of the Lord entered the temple by the gate facing east, the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple. While the man was standing beside me, I heard one speaking to me out of the temple, and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever. And the house of Israel shall no more defile my holy name, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoring and by the dead bodies of their kings at their high places,
Ezekiel 43:4‭-‬7 ESV

God fills and dwells in the temple and rests.

genesis 1 split into 7 days to recognize the action of God taking presence in his temple. Kind of like a ceremony on which God prepares creation for His rulership.


- In the first month of the second year, on the first of the month, the tabernacle was set up.
1. And Moses raised the tabernacle, and he placed its bases, and he set up its frames, and he placed its bars, and he raised its pillars. And he spread the tent over the tabernacle; he placed the covering of the tent over it, above it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
2. And he took and he put the testimony into the ark, and he placed the poles on the ark, and he put the atonement cover on the ark, above it. And he brought the ark into the tabernacle, and he set up the curtain of the screening, and he shielded the ark of the testimony, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
3. And he put the table in the tent of assembly on the north side of the tabernacle outside the curtain. And he arranged on it an arrangement of bread before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
4. And he placed the lampstand in the tent of assembly opposite the table on the south side of the tabernacle. And he set up the lamps before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
5. And he placed the gold altar in the tent of assembly before the curtain. And he turned fragrant incense into smoke on it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
6. And he set up the entrance screen for the tabernacle. And the altar of burnt offering he placed at the entrance of the tabernacle of the tent of assembly, and he offered on it the burnt offering and the grain offering, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
7. And he placed the basin between the tent of assembly and the altar, and he put there water for washing. And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet from it. At their going into the tent of assembly and at their approaching the altar, they washed, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
-. And he set up the courtyard all around the tabernacle and the altar, and he put up the screen of the gate of the courtyard, and Moses completed the work.
Exodus 40:17‭-‬33 LEB

Let us go to his dwelling places; Let us worship at his footstool. Arise, O Yahweh, to your resting place, you and your mighty ark. For Yahweh has chosen Zion; he has desired it for his habitation. “This is my resting place forever; here I will dwell [sit enthroned NIV] for I have desired it.
Psalms 132:7‭-‬8‭, ‬13‭-‬14

Read above. Psalm 132, God rests where He dwells, on His throne where he sits.

and the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there.
Genesis 2:12

This is the offering that you shall receive from them: gold, silver, and bronze,
Exodus 25:3

onyx stones and gems to be set in the ephod and for the breastpiece.
Exodus 25:7

He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life.
Genesis 3:24

You shall make two cherubim of gold; you shall make them of hammered work, at the two ends of the mercy seat.
Exodus 25:18

So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all the work that he had done in creation.
Genesis 2:3

You shall keep the sabbath, because it is holy for you; everyone who profanes it shall be put to death; whoever does any work on it shall be cut off from among the people.
Exodus 31:14

*God blessed them*, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” *God saw* everything that he had made and, *behold*, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning, a sixth day.
Genesis 1:31 LEB

And *Moses saw* all the work, and *behold*, they had done it; as the Lord had commanded, so had they done it. Then *Moses blessed them*.
Exodus 39:43 ESV

The Hebrew word ‘abad (עבד) can be translated as “to work,” “to serve,” or “to worship.” It is a common verb and is often used for cultivating the soil (Genesis 2:5, 3:23, 4:2,12). However, the word is also commonly used in a religious sense of serving God (Deuteronomy 4:19) and in priestly texts, especially regarding the tabernacle duties of the Levites (Numbers 3:7-8, 4:23-24, 4:26).

The second Hebrew word, translated as “to keep,” is shamar (שמר), which is commonly used for a priestly service of worship, as well as in legal texts of observing religious commands and duties (Leviticus 18:5). The word is also used for the Levitical responsibility of guarding the tabernacle from intruders (Numbers 1:53, 3:7-8)


He adorns Her with the covering of Her flesh.
She tears Her clothing.
On the second day
He adorns Her in the two rivers.
She sets a pot on the fire
A vessel on top of the coals.

Behold a day and a second,
The fire eats into the house,
The flame into the palace.
A fifth, a sixth day,
The fire eats into the house,
The flame in the midst of the palace.
Behold, on the seventh day,
The fire departs from the house,
The flame from the palace.
Silver turns from blocks,
Gold is turned from bricks.

baal cycle

House of the anuna gods possessing great power, which gives wisdom to the people, house, reposeful dwelling of the great gods! House, which was planned together with a plans of heaven and Earth. House which underpins the Land and supports the shrines! -Sumerian Temple Hymn of Kes.

When Anu, Enlil, and Ea had a first idea of heaven and Earth, that they found a wise means of providing support for the gods: They prepared, in the land, a pleasant dwelling. And the gods were installed in this dwelling: their principal Temple. Then they entrusted to the king the responsibility of assuring them their regular choice offerings. and for the feast of the gods, they established the required food offering! The gods loved this dwelling!
-akkadian prayer, temple dedication.

Gudea, you were building my house for me, and were having The offices perform to perfection for me, You had my house shine for me, like Utu and heaven's midst, separating. Like a lofty foothill range, heaven from Earth.

No holy house, no house of the gods, had been built in a pure place;
No reed had come forth, no tree had been created;
No brick had been laid, no brickmold had been created;
No house bad been built; no city had been created;
No city had been built, no settlement had been founded;
Nippur had not been built, Ekur had not been created;
The depths had not been built, Eridu had not been created;
No holy house, no house of the gods, no dwelling for them had been created.
All the world was sea,
The spring in the midst of the sea was only a channel,
Then was Eridu built, Esagila (temple) was created.

The last few are extrabiblical ancient near east texts that also describe heaven and earth as a temple and temples constructed in 7 days.
 
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Derf

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YECism, it would have been a valid, honorable, Biblical position, in the 60s. And definitely going back to the scopes trials in the 20s and 30s.

But you have to understand. Biblical scholarship has moved on. Enough is known about the context of the Bible, that it's known, comfortably, by a consensus of old testament scholars, that the Bible is written in an ancient near east context.

With discoveries of things like the dead sea scrolls for example. As Biblical texts are discovered, their context is illuminated. As other documents of qumran are discovered, the context of scripture is illuminated.

And the Bibles context, Genesis more specifically, and the old testament, is of the ancient near east.

And what that means, quite simply, is that Genesis is not talking about the age of the earth. It's talking about God's temple.

The 7 days are not about the age of the earth. They're about a temple. And the Bible tells us that plainly. See my quoted passages.
So, you're not interested in anything AIG because they are contradictory, but you post a video that is contradictory? Why is that?
 
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GenemZ

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Too many species, too many mouths to feed. And if you're YEC you have over 1,000 species of dinosaurs and therapod dinosaurs to contend with. And frankly we are definitely on their menu. The Ark would need warehouse sized food and water storages. And what about waste disposal? The stinkiest ark to have ever sailed the global sea. Have you ever driven past a cattle farm but imagine that on a larger scale in an enclosed space? I think Christianity especially the Fundies, may need to accept that the flood was a massive regional one and likely a passed down oral tradition that may grew alittle larger each time it was taught and that was eventually became canonized by Moses and the ancient scribes. But furthermore, it fits the pattern of Yahweh's judgment of the nations throughout the Old Testament. In fact, both Jesus and Peter drew comparisons between the Flood and the destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70 itself a regional, national judgment.

View attachment 339512
View attachment 339513

The purpose of Noah's flood was destroy mankind. Mankind was yet in its infancy and lived in a very small area.
The purpose of the flood was to destroy the world of man, not the planet.

Genesis 11 gives us a clue as to how the term "the entire earth" was viewed at that time.

Genesis 11:1-3​
Now the whole earth had one language and one speech. And it came to pass,
as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar,
and they dwelt there. Then they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks
and bake them thoroughly.” They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar.

According to their thinking of those alive in those days, the "entire earth" was living on a plain in the land of Shinar.

The plan for Noah's flood was destroy the whole earth - Hence, where man was living at that time!

Small details can make or break us....
 
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Derf

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The purpose of Noah's flood was destroy mankind. Mankind was yet in its infancy and lived in a very small area.
The purpose of the flood was to destroy the world of man, not the planet.

Genesis 11 gives us a clue as to how the term "the entire earth" was viewed at that time.

Genesis 11:1-3​
Now the whole earth had one language and one speech. And it came to pass,
as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar,
and they dwelt there. Then they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks
and bake them thoroughly.” They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar.

According to their thinking of those alive in those days, the "entire earth" was living on a plain in the land of Shinar.

The plan for Noah's flood was destroy the whole earth - Hence, where man was living at that time!

Small details can make or break us....
Compare the number of generations. Nimrod, who built Babel, or at least reigned in it, was the 3rd from Noah, while Noah was the 9th from Adam, at a minimum. Noah had children at 500years old, while Enoch had children at 65. All had at least 3 sons, and most likely many more, as well as a comparable number of daughters, probably. Assuming 4 of each (matching Adam's minimum number of surviving children), would get you to a million people at the time of the flood, minimum. There was a fair amount of wickedness, so they would move further apart from each other. The continents were likely connected at the time, so there's no reason not to believe the whole earth (globe) was flooded to kill the whole earth (people).
 
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The Barbarian

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The continents were likely connected at the time,
By the time Babylon was built, the Atlantic Ocean was very nearly the distance across that it is today. Continents move a few centimeters a year. If they moved as fast as you suppose, the oceans would have boiled from the friction. All that energy to get them galloping and then stop would be released as heat. Want to see some rough calculations?
so there's no reason not to believe the whole earth (globe) was flooded to kill the whole earth (people).
Other than the fact that the Bible doesn't say it was global, there's a whole host of other problems. Why not just accept it as written?
 
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The Barbarian

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The plan for Noah's flood was destroy the whole earth - Hence, where man was living at that time!
Seems to be so. We don't know for sure if the story is allegory or literal history, but in either case I think you are right.
 
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By the time Babylon was built, the Atlantic Ocean was very nearly the distance across that it is today. Continents move a few centimeters a year. If they moved as fast as you suppose, the oceans would have boiled from the friction. All that energy to get them galloping and then stop would be released as heat. Want to see some rough calculations?
Yes, that would be great! Please explain as best you can where you get your starting numbers from.
Other than the fact that the Bible doesn't say it was global,
I think it does.
Genesis 6:7 KJV — And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Remember that God brought the animals to Noah. If the flood wasn't global, why not send them outside the destruction zone, like He did with Lot's family. Same for Noah.

Genesis 6:17 KJV — And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Notice it's "all flesh...under heaven", which helps us understand what "eretz" means in this instance.

Genesis 7:11 KJV — In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

The great deep seems to refer to seas, and to say this was merely a local body of water or volcano minimizes it beyond the ability of the text to handle.

Genesis 7:19-20 KJV — And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

This appears to show progression, from the earth face to high hills to mountains.

Genesis 7:22-23 KJV — All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

The word "land" is added in the translation for clarity. It's just "in the dry", which would be in opposition to "in the sea" or some such, which is a global concept.

And fowls are included, even though they could easily fly to a safer area.

Genesis 9:9-10 KJV — And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.

Notice that the covenant was not only made with mankind, but with the animals. Why, if most animals survived the local flood somewhere else?

Genesis 9:11 KJV — And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

If the flood was local, then God's covenant has been broken numerous times, as local floods are fairly common, and local "eretz" HAS been destroyed since then.

there's a whole host of other problems.
Yes, that's what I'm saying about your view.
Why not just accept it as written?
That's what I'm asking you to do.


And Merry Christmas to you, Barbarian.
 
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GenemZ

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Compare the number of generations. Nimrod, who built Babel, or at least reigned in it, was the 3rd from Noah, while Noah was the 9th from Adam, at a minimum. Noah had children at 500years old, while Enoch had children at 65. All had at least 3 sons, and most likely many more, as well as a comparable number of daughters, probably. Assuming 4 of each (matching Adam's minimum number of surviving children), would get you to a million people at the time of the flood, minimum. There was a fair amount of wickedness, so they would move further apart from each other. The continents were likely connected at the time, so there's no reason not to believe the whole earth (globe) was flooded to kill the whole earth (people).
That is much less people than live in the city of Manhattan.. or London. Not many square miles there!

And, keep in mind. They all had to be close enough to hear Noah's preaching for themselves. 2 Peter 2:5.
If they could not hear Noah's preaching? God would have been unfair for judging them.
 
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Derf

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That is much less people than live in the city of Manhattan.. or London. Not many square miles there!

And, keep in mind. They all had to be close enough to hear Noah's preaching for themselves. 2 Peter 2:5.
If they could not hear Noah's preaching? God would have been unfair for judging them.
Not necessarily. Enoch also had things to say to the people of his day, nany of whom were alive in Noah's. But I understand what you're saying.

Still, if the cities were so violent, many people would move away from them. Cain's city in the land of Nod was built as a result of him moving away from his parents, away from the land of Eden (the garden wasn't the only thing there...a river flowed out of Eden to water the garden, and the split into 4 rivers to water the "whole eretz".


So potentially there were at least two "lands" with people. Noah, if he stayed nearer his family, would be closer to Eden, while the wicked would more likely be near Cain and his offspring.

Then there was the "land" of Havilah, and the "land" of Ethiopia, both mentioned in Gen 2.

Maybe these weren't populated, but at some point someone knew about the gold, etc., in Havilah.
 
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GenemZ

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Maybe these weren't populated, but at some point someone knew about the gold, etc., in Havilah.
Why should anyone back then think of gold as a medium for exchange?

More likely. Salt was held in higher esteem, but I rather doubt it was not though of as such in those days.
Man was living to be many hundreds of years old and everyone lived off the land.
 
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Derf

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Why should anyone back then think of gold as a medium for exchange?
Remember that Cain's offspring had figured out how to make things of iron and brass.

Genesis 4:22 KJV — And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.


Surely they could see the value of gold.

More likely. Salt was held in higher esteem, but I rather doubt it was not though of as such in those days.
Man was living to be many hundreds of years old and everyone lived off the land.
Except someone was making things of iron and brass.
 
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The Barbarian

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Except someone was making things of iron and brass.
You don't get a metallurgy going without a stratified society. Someone was producing excess food so that others could do other things
 
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Derf

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You don't get a metallurgy going without a stratified society. Someone was producing excess food so that others could do other things
Yeah. You can't eat gold.

My point was that there was more going on than farming and hunting/gathering ("living off the land"). Did you have a different point?
 
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Derf

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Too many species, too many mouths to feed. And if you're YEC you have over 1,000 species of dinosaurs and therapod dinosaurs to contend with. And frankly we are definitely on their menu. The Ark would need warehouse sized food and water storages. And what about waste disposal? The stinkiest ark to have ever sailed the global sea. Have you ever driven past a cattle farm but imagine that on a larger scale in an enclosed space? I think Christianity especially the Fundies, may need to accept that the flood was a massive regional one and likely a passed down oral tradition that may grew alittle larger each time it was taught and that was eventually became canonized by Moses and the ancient scribes. But furthermore, it fits the pattern of Yahweh's judgment of the nations throughout the Old Testament. In fact, both Jesus and Peter drew comparisons between the Flood and the destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70 itself a regional, national judgment.

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Let's say you're correct, and it was a local flood. And let's say there were inly a few or zero dinosaurs. Let's say the ark was filled to capacity with animals, but not overfilled, with room left for water and food for both the people and animals on board. Are you okay with the animal waste disposal for over a year? How many animals do you propose Noah took on the ark? Wouldn't your version still leave you with the stinkiest ark ever? Just as bad as those cattle farms?

So my question is, are you, with my concessions, ready to take the ark's dimensions and the bible's timeline as literal values?
 
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The Barbarian

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My point was that there was more going on than farming and hunting/gathering ("living off the land"). Did you have a different point?
A lot more was going on. By 2000 BCE, bronze use was rather widespread in the old world. In Africa, iron smelting started about the same time, so there never was a separate bronze age. Regardless, it's an indication of an organized society and people in the population who were not needed for food production.
 
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Derf

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A lot more was going on. By 2000 BCE, bronze use was rather widespread in the old world. In Africa, iron smelting started about the same time, so there never was a separate bronze age. Regardless, it's an indication of an organized society and people in the population who were not needed for food production.
I think we're in agreement here, although the time period was a few hundred years earlier. And therefore gold was of value to the people mentioned in early Genesis, as a form of currency, at least.
 
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