Establishing Secular Morality

[zippy2006]

Rights are just agreements that we make that what we individually would prefer to be allowed to do is also granted to those who would allow it.

Lol, if you say so. That is by far the most absurd and ad hoc definition of 'right' that I have ever heard.

 

[Bradskii]

Lol, if you say so. That is by far the most absurd and ad hoc definition of 'right' that I have ever heard.

You are free to give an alternative.

 

[Larniavc]

In what way do you consider them to be natural?

Because they are a part of normal human behaviour. Every one lies and takes risks. In what way is it unnatural?

 

[Larniavc]

Yes, so.

Yes, so.

I’m asking you to clarify the mean of the previous post I responded to. Can you do that?

 

[Larniavc]

Lol, if you say so. That is by far the most absurd and ad hoc definition of 'right' that I have ever heard.

What is wrong with it? It seems a reasonable enough reflection of reality.

 

[Astrid]

What is wrong with it? It seems a reasonable enough reflection of reality.

I'd like to find out what's absurd.

 

[o_mlly]

Every one lies and takes risks. In what way is it unnatural?

Lying maybe common but lying is not natural. When a normal person lies, perceptible changes in their heart rate, blood pressure, perspiration occur. Pathological liars may be able to mask those autonomous changes but then they are by definition not normal.

It looks like I should have written compulsive gambling although I would think that would have been understood.

 

[o_mlly]

I’m asking you to clarify the mean of the previous post I responded to. Can you do that?

Sure. With which part of that post are you confused?

 

[Bradskii]

Lying maybe common but lying is not natural. When a normal person lies, perceptible changes in their heart rate, blood pressure, perspiration occur.

You'll get similar changes during sex. I don't think that's unnatural. Deception is quite normal. It's common in nature.

It looks like I should have written compulsive gambling although I would think that would have been understood.

That might be unnatural.

 

[o_mlly]

You'll get similar changes during sex. I don't think that's unnatural.

? I get those same physical changes when finishing on my treadmill. Physical changes when one physically exerts themselves are natural.

Those physical changes do not occur when one says to another what he believes is true. Liars, on the other hand, experience their bodies autonomous revulsion. (To combine my examples into an exemplar: The "tell" in a compulsive gambler's tick let's others know he's lying.)

 

[Bradskii]

? I get those same physical changes when finishing on my treadmill. Physical changes when one physically exerts themselves are natural.

Those physical changes do not occur when one says to another what he believes is true. Liars, on the other hand, experience their bodies autonomous revulsion. (To combine my examples into an exemplar: The "tell" in a compulsive gambler's tick let's others know he's lying.)

So changes are natural when you exercise but changes are unnatural when you lie?

No, the meal was delicious.
What a beautiful baby.

I never knew there was so much excess sweating during the course of a day. But this tendency to either gain an advantage over someone or to praise someone or something to make them happy is as natural as the tendency to associate with others. Too many home truths will find you dissassociating with a lot of people. Which we naturally try to avoid. So you don't tell the host that his Bolognese was inedible or the mother that you must have seen an uglier child, but you can't exactly remember when.

 

[Larniavc]

Lying maybe common but lying is not natural. When a normal person lies, perceptible changes in their heart rate, blood pressure, perspiration occur. Pathological liars may be able to mask those autonomous changes but then they are by definition not normal.

It looks like I should have written compulsive gambling although I would think that would have been understood.

Those same physiological reactions occur when one is excited. And compulsions are a normal part of human psychology. Again, in what way is it unnatural?

 

[Larniavc]

Sure. With which part of that post are you confused?

What does this have to do with morality?

o_mlly said:
There are, of course, human beings who will not to or are incapable of associating with other people. The former do so usually for religious reasons, eg., choosing the eremitic life, and the latter due to a psychological disorder, eg., autism.

 

[Larniavc]

Those physical changes do not occur when one says to another what he believes is true.

Yes they do. If I tell my wife I'm getting a new car all of those physiological reactions occur. It's simply (pardon the pun) the sympathetic nervous system doing it's job. That's about as natural as you can get.

Public speaking? Same reaction.
Climbing a cliff? Same reaction.
Asking someone out on date? Same reaction.
Telling lies? Same reaction.

All activation of the sympathetic nervous system. This is a high school level of psychology.

 

[Aaron112]

Liars, on the other hand, experience their bodies autonomous revulsion. (To combine my examples into an exemplar: The "tell" in a compulsive gambler's tick let's others know he's lying.)

It was once, or is often , told "all men are liars"; and this is not apparently a lie, or at least not far from overall realization .
When students of a liar learn lies, but are told daily, since 3 years old, that the lies are truth,
they suffer for it,
and the ones they live around suffer for it,
but there is often no physical indication recognized when they are lying, since they totally , perhaps, believe what they are relating is true.

 

[Aaron112]

What does this have to do with morality?

This is a high school level of psychology.

I don't know about psychology,
but
I do know that a young child who is raised in the way he should go
can tell "at once" when someone is lying, sometimes by their voice, usually by their face/eyes.

(or if you rather, by the blameless spirit within the child)

 

[Larniavc]

Liars, on the other hand, experience their bodies autonomous revulsion.

This simply untrue. When people take a risk (such as getting caught out in a lie) their body activates the sympathetic nervous system. Which is perfectly normal. The body doesn't experience 'autonomous revulsion'. Who ever told you that baloney?

 

[Larniavc]

I do know that a young child who is raised in the way he should go
can tell "at once" when someone is lying, sometimes by their voice, usually by their face/eyes.

Rubbish. Kids are by far and away the easiest people to lie to. Detecting lies is not built in trait children have: quite the opposite.

 

[Aaron112]

'autonomous revulsion'.

Curious so g&gled... >> only two results

Malware Posing as AMD Radeon Graphics Drivers ...​

Reddit
https://www.reddit.com › Amd › comments › malware_...

Jan 15, 2023 — Luckily, when away from adblock I have an extreme and autonomous revulsion for any results with "ad" in it. Upvote 3. Downvote. Reply. u/mi7chy ...

Catalytic Narrative: February 2008​

Catalytic Narrative
https://www.catalyticnarrative.com › 2008/02

Feb 29, 2008 — After all, there were married couples here, alongside, say, me, who has acquired an apparently autonomous revulsion from ever re-entering ...

 

[Aaron112]

Rubbish. Kids are by far and away the easiest people to lie to. Detecting lies is not built in trait children have: quite the opposite.

Notice you are referring to a different group than I posted about.
Rubbish to the world, the world which is not blameless.

Truth to the ones who are raised right, raised in the way they should go - rare, but still around even in this rubbish world of sin.