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When two worldviews collide.

stevevw

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It suggests the concept of intergenerational trauma as something passed by genetics is just pop-psych bunko.
I think there is something to epigenetics sort of lamarkian nature where the stresses on the body effect a person somatically which then alters DNA methalation. We have know the fetus can also be effected prenatally by the mothers experiences to stress an pathogens as far as mental disorders and diseases.

Psychologically care bonding is important in determining mental health disorders as well which in some way is locked in or at least creates a stronger disposition towards being more insecure, ambivilent, anti social, addict, agreesive and dominant, emotionally immature and dependent. Its also associated with brain chemicals so it may be that these are not expressed proporely perhaps as a result of pre and post birth development.
 
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Paidiske

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The interesting thing in the reading you've supplied, is that it's not that those students can't do the work, but that finding themselves being outperformed by their peers discourages them from what are perceived as challenging courses. Which is understandable, but suggests that with the right framework and support, that could be overcome.
 
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Kylie

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If we were to go by indicators such as these...

Women indicate suicidal ideation, depression, anxiety, and have more suicide attempts than men. By those indicators, women are more at risk for suicide.

However, when we look at who commits suicide more often....it's men. Suicidal ideation, depression, anxiety, or even suicide attempts don't actually indicate who is most at risk of suicide. Suicide rates do.

So unless you have the trans suicide rate...we can just dismiss all you posted.
Women also have a network of friends they can turn to for support, and men have been conditioned by society to be seen as strong no matter what. For many men, to speak about their emotions, to say to another man, "Hey, I'm having trouble with my relationship with my wife/kids/" or to say that they are feeling bullied at work, that kind of thing, they don't know how to do it, and they are afraid of being seen as weak or not a man if they do. So they have much less support than women. "Men value independence and decisiveness, and they regard acknowledging a need for help as weakness and avoid it." SOURCE SOURCE SOURCE My husband has said that when he was a kid, there was the attitude "Boys don't cry," and this attitude leads men to believe they need to bottle their emotions up and deal with those emotions themselves, something which society has left them woefully unprepared to do. And many men facing this try to "self medicate" as one source I found puts it, turning to alcohol for relief.

Perhaps you should actually study the issue more than just taking a cursory glance at it.

In any case, when it comes to suicide and trans people, "Data indicate that 82% of transgender individuals have considered killing themselves and 40% have attempted suicide, with suicidality highest among transgender youth." SOURCE.
 
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Kylie

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Once again I must mention those studies have all been found to be extremely poor and faulty. The British, the Finns, French and Norwegians and also those in America have looked at those studies and found them full of unscientific methodology and unreliable in their conclusions. That's exactly why those countries have moved away from the previous treatment methods they used.
Care to cite a SCIENTIFIC source that shows these errors?

As in, something written by an ACTUAL SCIENTIST who works in this field?
You've been duped by transactivist unscientific methodology.

Yes, you post one article by a woman who has no healthcare qualifications and is known to be a transphobe, and think you have proven scientific studies wrong. Jennifer Block vs. transgender people
Finland Takes Another Look at Youth Gender Medicine

You should take a look at Genspect and SEGM to get a better view of what's gone on. The countries have moved far away from previous methods due to the lack of quality in the studies. While the US and Canada go on full steam ahead in places and are behind the times in recognizing the deep faults and the poorest qualities of the studies.
I give actual studies, you give op eds. The guy who wrote this has a degree in political science, not any field of healthcare.

Why don't you get your information about healthcare from healthcare professionals?
 
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stevevw

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The interesting thing in the reading you've supplied, is that it's not that those students can't do the work, but that finding themselves being outperformed by their peers discourages them from what are perceived as challenging courses. Which is understandable, but suggests that with the right framework and support, that could be overcome.
Its a combination of many not being able to keep up with the academic level and feeling discouraged as a result. But the point is Leftist ideologues pushed this idea through DEI policies without any evidence that it works. It was simply pushed because of PC. Like many of these ideas based on DEI ideas where peoples priviledge/advantage and disadvantage is measured by the identity group you belong to is bound to fail because they are unreal.

As the article saied minorities who don't meet the higher standard are better off being in a lower standard entry where they can keep up, excel and improve which also helps their confidence and selfworth which then inspires to greater things. Which is really common sense, well it us to be. But ideologues put a spanner in the works ande politicised everything.

The point is ideologues believed this stuff to the extreme and like the Trans care Model, Safe Schools, decolonised curiculum, safe spaces, cancel culture, no platforming they are the result of a new ideological belief that has gripped society especially in the Social Sciences and Humanities which inevitably spills out into our institutions and everyday life.

It goes to show that what one side truely believes is the right thing to do can be misguided and even to the point where its forcede onto society like religion. More importantly these ideas are a threat to the long held beliefs and truths the West has come to know through our long history which we know work. Like the importance of the Individual regardless of identity. Like the importance of being made in Gods image an not humans.
 
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Paidiske

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But the point is Leftist ideologues pushed this idea through DEI policies without any evidence that it works.
I guess it depends what you're trying to achieve. If it's more access to university education, it worked. That the approach might need tweaking for maximum benefit doesn't invalidate the idea.
Like the importance of being made in Gods image an not humans.
I don't see any challenge to the idea of being made in God's image, in the idea of valuing diversity. You might need to unpack your theological reasoning a bit, there.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I saw that you said that, but I don't believe it, particularly.

Ok.

In my experience, women are open to and want more flexible and non-traditional sharing of family responsibilities, and men don't (largely because the status quo benefits them in ways to which they feel entitledOK.

Everything you said here is contradicted by the data.



"Heterosexual women are getting more choosy. Women “don’t want to marry down,” to form a long-term relationship to a man with less education and earnings than herself, said Ronald Levant, professor emeritus of psychology at the University of Akron and author of several books on masculinity."

Basically everything from surveys to professional matchmakers agree....the scenario you're describing isn't happening. Basically as women get higher educations, higher salaries, and casually date men out of their league through their 20s...pop out a kid or two....and by 30 decide to settle down and don't understand why it suddenly seems impossible.

I don't want you to think I'm just saying this because you say things like "dismantling the patriarchy benefits men too" even though you can't really describe how that's going to work....

I think there's a very real likelihood that dismantling feminism will vastly improve women's lives regarding stable long term romantic relationships and marriage (at least in those aspects if not others). Ideas of "the body acceptance movement" and concepts like "sex work is real work" are both tertiary branches of modern feminism and they aren't helping women find or keep stable relationships at all. Even worse, the constant self indulgence, the narcissistic obsession with their own lives has made the modern dating scene a nightmare for both men and women.

Generally speaking....things like the WAWE cause our respective societies to treat men and women's romantic relationship problems wildly differently. The emergence of the two extreme groups....the incel males and the 35yo career woman with a body count of 100 who has overly ridiculous expectations (sorry, there's no catchy term for this group like incel) are a relatively recent phenomenon and they're both growing and both largely the result of feminism.

We don't care about men as a society....so the problems of this lonely, depressed, and suicidal group of men are generally mocked or disregarded until one of them goes on a murder spree. The women who fall into the category I described above? They'll get entire articles from online women describing how the problem must be men....not their wildly unrealistic expectations. Since neither group appears to genuinely get any useful help....the responses to their problems are adaptive. We now have the emergence of the "passport bro" which is a man unwilling to settle for promiscuous woman with children and a "career" and instead, travel overseas in search of younger more traditional women willing to have a family and grateful for a man who can provide for them. The women on the other hand, now increasingly find themselves in a "situationship" wherein they're sleeping with a mam they casually date who is likely dating multiple other women....none of which he intends to settle down with.....in the vain hopes that this will change and he will ultimately select her despite the statistical improbability. Of the two, the passport bros seem to be getting what they want more often and the women are either trying to get comfortable dying alone....and their depression and anxiety rates seem to be increasing rather quickly.

Just look at any professional matchmakers in the US and you'll find that more than a few have given up on female clients entirely.




Women want partners who will be true teammates in life. Before children, she's seldom going to be keen to financially support someone who seems to have no goals, no drive of his own.

That's a major difference between men and women. Men don't care how much a woman makes (generally) nor if she's driven towards some career goals.



In my experience, it's the men who refuse this kind of arrangement (even where their wives earn, or could earn, significantly more), not the women who don't want it.

I have, never in my life, met any man....nor known any man who knows of a man.....who had the opportunity for such an arrangement. I'm sure it's happened somewhere at some time....but it's so exceedingly rare that it's not worth considering.




The ideal, of course, is sharing both work and domestic life -

This is your ideal....not everyone's.



for a while we had an arrangement my peers called the "unicorn" set up of each parent working three days a week - but I will grant that logistically that can be harder to put in place, because employers are often reluctant to be flexible.

Yeah that's probably got less to do with inflexibility than it does productivity. The average person working three days a week here probably isn't going to have healthcare through their emplyer...as they wouldn't qualify for it. Consider an employer who has to choose between 3 employees working 5 days a week or 5 employees working 3 days a week and it's pretty easy to understand why those 3 day employees aren't getting healthcare benefits (along with many others).




You would demonstrate the ways in which I had neglected my duties.

Is there something quantifiable there? Or are we still talking vague abstractions?



:rolleyes: Funny how nobody ever accuses working fathers of neglecting their children.

? Where? That happens all the time. If both parents work full time then someone else is raising those children....or nobody is. Most men prefer a parent to do the child raising.


I work full time, and my child is not neglected.

I know, you constantly defer to yourself for examples that don't seem remotely close to the norm for most people.


I'm less familiar with their arguments. I'll simply say, I'm familiar enough with the genetic/biological side of things to be quite confident the "nature" side of the argument isn't determinative.

Again, I'm not arguing for genetic determinism. I'm simply saying that if we look at advances in understanding genetics, we see an increasing body of factual knowledge that seems to be exponentially rising over the last 15 years or so and links to behaviour are included in that knowledge. On the other side of the coin....we see a lot of faked/poor research by sociologists and psychologists that is designed to cater more to political narratives than truth.


No, that's not what I asked for. I asked if women were ever rated higher on stereotypically masculine traits.

I don't know what sort of stereotypically masculine traits you're talking about. If we're talking about positive traits (like bravery) and not negative traits (like cowardice) then the answer is yes.



Why?


That doesn't mean it doesn't provide her with benefits in life, though.

So a privilege is anything that can result in positive benefits?



Because unequal results seem to indicate barriers in the way the one who is working harder.

I'm sorry but that's absurd. You understand we aren't truly equals, right? You have your talents, I have mine. In any arena wherein my talents are more valuable....you should expect to work harder to achieve the same results as me despite the complete absence of any obstacles.



Perhaps, in your hypothetical, with a bit of coaching or mentoring, the people you replaced could have done as well as you do now.
l learned the assignment from them lol.

It's not a particularly desirable detail.

Is it their fault they didn't come into the role with the knowledge, wisdom and experience you have?

As they had already been doing the detail for 2 years, it's hard to imagine any way in which I was more knowledgeable coming in. The other guy who got mandated the detail managed to secure a transfer at the same time....so while a replacement was searched for during the first month, and the previous 2 guys were still training me....

Before they left I convinced my superior I would be able to train a second better if I was given another month to get my feet under me (a lie) and when he voiced his concern about underperforming....I simply asked what the average output my predecessors were producing was and told him if I couldn't match it, I would put in extra days. It only took 3 weeks to outperform my predecessors and once I did....I pointed this out and told him I'd prefer the office to myself anyway. He thought this was funny when he understood what I'd done to secure my own office and said I'd tentatively keep it if I kept up my current performance. Now he pops his head in only once a day to ask if I need anything.




Or have they not had the opportunities you had to develop that insight and skill?

They were both senior to me. I couldn't possibly give their resumes if I wanted to.


Because she needed the money to live on. I suspect her income was covering a significant proportion of household expenses.

But couldn't study on her own?



One where other factors - such as disability or poverty or discrimination - don't hold someone back from achieving to their potential and desire.

This is utopian fantasy and it results in disaster.


Not just gender, but all the things which differ by gender.

Such as?


:rolleyes:

Not true.

You don't recall us having this discussion before? You don't remember me providing research on how often men approach women compared to the opposite. Nothing controversial here.




Given you're dismissing actual real personal experiences, rather than just assumptions, I suspect we're done here.

When you first related a personal experience, I related one back....which you dismissed by saying I must be living a sheltered life.

I can quote you if you like.
 
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Paidiske

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I think there's a very real likelihood that dismantling feminism will vastly improve women's lives regarding stable long term romantic relationships and marriage (at least in those aspects if not others).
Ooh, sure. I can see how returning women to being subjugated legally will make marriage safe and happy. (/sarcasm).
I have, never in my life, met any man....nor known any man who knows of a man.....who had the opportunity for such an arrangement. I'm sure it's happened somewhere at some time....but it's so exceedingly rare that it's not worth considering.
Apparently about 5% of stay at home parents are fathers, in Australia. In America it's about 16%. That's not really so very exceedingly rare.
The average person working three days a week here probably isn't going to have healthcare through their emplyer...as they wouldn't qualify for it.
Ah. We come back to the massive problems with American healthcare. Talk about collision of worldviews...
Is there something quantifiable there?
Yes. Pastoral neglect, sacramental neglect, failure to actually do what you're there to do.
? Where? That happens all the time.
Really? Working fathers are accused of being bad fathers, or neglecting their children, because they work? Because that's something I've never seen.
If both parents work full time then someone else is raising those children....or nobody is.
And you can work without that child being neglected. Between two parents, extended family, and other arrangements, it's entirely possible for a child to be well cared for and have good secure relationships with his or her parents. Flexible work does help.
I know, you constantly defer to yourself for examples that don't seem remotely close to the norm for most people.
I don't believe that it's the norm for children to be neglected, even children of working parents.
I don't know what sort of stereotypically masculine traits you're talking about. If we're talking about positive traits (like bravery) and not negative traits (like cowardice) then the answer is yes.
I'd be genuinely interested to see that.
Why? Because it's ridiculous. Claiming that men are better leaders than women, based on nothing but their reproductive biology, and without any meaningful evidence, is just plain sexism and misogyny.
So a privilege is anything that can result in positive benefits?
I might nuance that as anything that can provide an advantage over others.
I'm sorry but that's absurd. You understand we aren't truly equals, right? You have your talents, I have mine. In any arena wherein my talents are more valuable....you should expect to work harder to achieve the same results as me despite the complete absence of any obstacles.
Yes. But talent isn't distributed along wealth or socio-economic lines. It isn't distributed along racial lines. It isn't distributed along gendered lines. So when we can see, at a population level, that outcomes follow those lines, we can also see that something other than talent is in play.
But couldn't study on her own?
I'm not understanding your point, here.
This is utopian fantasy and it results in disaster.
Why does providing people with opportunity to reach their potential end in disaster?
For example, typical patterns of work experience.
You don't recall us having this discussion before? You don't remember me providing research on how often men approach women compared to the opposite. Nothing controversial here.
You said women don't have to risk rejection. Of course we do. Even if you think men do most of the asking, not being asked is also a form of rejection.
When you first related a personal experience, I related one back....which you dismissed by saying I must be living a sheltered life.
Saying that you've never witnessed something is not the same as saying that something happened. It can be true that you've never seen something that does, in fact, often happen.

Given that apparently, in America, about 1 in 6 stay at home parents are dads and you've never met one is a neat demonstration.
 
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stevevw

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I guess it depends what you're trying to achieve. If it's more access to university education, it worked. That the approach might need tweaking for maximum benefit doesn't invalidate the idea.
The idea of more access to higher education is good, its a basic tenets of Western culture. People from all over the world come to Western Universities to make something of their lives. The Church actually began the idea of Universities. I remember many new immigrants coming after the WW2 and Vietnam many making a successful life and taking advantage of the opportunities the West allowed them.

Affirmative action may have got more disadvantaged people into Uni but at what cost to creating a bunch of other problems. Like wasting years after dropping out or not qualifying for that job. Or being burdened down with a massive Uni debt which amounted to nothing. Or missing opportunities instead of gaining them when they could have been placed in a more realistic level of learning and succeeded. Or how other more derserving candidates missed out because minorities took their place.

I think like the example of the Trans Model and CRT being a mistake these Leftist progressive ideas which are based on no science and sprung out of academia in the Humanities are dangerous. They are undermining long held Western ideas that we know work and have worked for centuries. Its no coincidence I believe that these ideologies have sprung up rather quickly in recent years as the West has moved away from God.
I don't see any challenge to the idea of being made in God's image, in the idea of valuing diversity. You might need to unpack your theological reasoning a bit, there.
I think put simply ideas like DEI and the ideology its based on is literally the complete opposite of being made in Gods image as its about being made in human image and not Gods.

I noticed an interest coincidence that both DEI ideology and imago Dei have the word dei in it. The same and yet not the same. That seems to be how ideology works it uses nobel ideas like equality, justice, protection and inclusion but sneeks in the ideology as well. Thats why its like religion and not any way to truely achieve an equal and just society. False prophets you could say.
 
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Paidiske

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Affirmative action may have got more disadvantaged people into Uni but at what cost to creating a bunch of other problems.
Okay, so it's not perfect. That doesn't mean it's wrong to try to put mechanisms in place to try to support people who face obstacles to success. It just means we have more work to do.
They are undermining long held Western ideas that we know work and have worked for centuries.
Well, they didn't really work when such people didn't have access to higher education at all.
I think put simply ideas like DEI and the ideology its based on is literally the complete opposite of being made in Gods image as its about being made in human image and not Gods.
This claim doesn't make any sense to me. What do you mean "the complete opposite of being made in God's image"? That people inherently lack worth and dignity?

We come back around to needing to spell out what it means to be made in God's image; because I would think that celebrating diversity is about celebrating the way all people are indeed made in the image of God.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Okay, so it's not perfect.

Perfection isn't the issue. The problem is that it fundamentally undermined certain rights we are all supposed to enjoy.

1. Equality under the law.

2. Freedom of discrimination for superficial characteristics like race, sex, sexual orientation, etc.



That doesn't mean it's wrong to try to put mechanisms in place to try to support people who face obstacles to success.

It was never intended to be permanent because of the above. Literally the last time it was upheld, one of the SCOTUS Justices literally imagined that it would be voluntarily abolished 20 years later. Unfortunately, she was so wrong that it lasted slightly longer than 20 years later and the left was no longer moving towards equality but instead moving to favoring racism.

It just means we have more work to do.

We don't want to move backwards to racial discrimination. It doesn't matter how it's repackaged or rebranded.

Affirmative Action was essentially, a form of reparations. It was an acknowledgement of an uneven playing field created by a century of racially discriminatory laws. It was a side door into the halls of academia. No, it wasn't perfect, but a considerable amount of the black middle class was created since its inception. Asians rightly saw they were being discriminated against and cheated of what they had earned by merit. This had been happening for decades and they said enough is enough....and rightly so.
 
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rjs330

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That's not an option for men. Just being realistic....it's an option for at least perhaps >50% of women and <1% of men.

Women, generally don't want a husband who doesn't work and they want a husband who makes more money than they do. Men generally, don't care how much money a woman makes....because staying at home and taking care of children isn't an option we get. It's another of the privileges women hold.
I agree. My wife was so thankful that I supported her for staying home. It was very tight for us for quite a while. But we managed. Once all the kids were in school she decided to work since there was no one home to take care of. She was the type of woman that wanted the man to work. She had no time for men who wouldn't or didn't want to work. Funny thing is she doesn't mind a stay at home dad if he's taking care of business. She thinks it's odd that the wife wouldn't want to take care of the kids since she sees most moms do. In the case I'm talking about the husband wanted kids and the wife told him if we wanted kids he had to stay home and take care of them because she didn't want to. The odd ball out of the majority cause everyone else in the office would choose to be the one to stay home.
 
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Robban

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I agree. My wife was so thankful that I supported her for staying home. It was very tight for us for quite a while. But we managed. Once all the kids were in school she decided to work since there was no one home to take care of. She was the type of woman that wanted the man to work. She had no time for men who wouldn't or didn't want to work. Funny thing is she doesn't mind a stay at home dad if he's taking care of business. She thinks it's odd that the wife wouldn't want to take care of the kids since she sees most moms do. In the case I'm talking about the husband wanted kids and the wife told him if we wanted kids he had to stay home and take care of them because she didn't want to. The odd ball out of the majority cause everyone else in the office would choose to be the one to stay home.
.
That is something that goes back to the giving of the Torah, "Ladies first".

When God told Moses how to prepare the Jewish people to recieve Torah on

Shavuos, He instructed him to speak to the women first, for it was the women's
commitment that would inspire the rest of the Jewish people

At the time of giving of the Torah --and down through the ages.

It is not surprising that the preparation for Sinai was to begin from the women
and girls,

for it is a fact of human nature that the tone of the househoöd is set mainly by the woman of the house.

This why she is deemed in Torah "The foundation of the home"
the mainstay of the home.

(from talks by the Rebbe)



Exodus 19:3
"Speak to the house of Jacob, and tell the sons of Israel."

Our sages explain,
House of Jacob are the women,
Sons of Israel are the men.

Ladies first.
 
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stevevw

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Okay, so it's not perfect. That doesn't mean it's wrong to try to put mechanisms in place to try to support people who face obstacles to success. It just means we have more work to do.
Yes we will always have more work to do. But I think you miss the point. The point is pushing such an idea as Affirmative action is just one idea of many implemented by ideologues. It exposes the ideological thinking behind these policies and how out of touch it is with reality. So theres a problem with the thinking in the first place and whether we can to trust them to get things right at the moment with creating a better society.
Well, they didn't really work when such people didn't have access to higher education at all.
I disagree. The West has had a long history of immigrants coming to be educated and get work and create businesses. No where else in the world can this happen to the edegree the West has become multicultural. Many immigrants who came after WW2 and Vietnam have their own culture within the West. People come from all over the world to go to Western Uni's.

I think the West had a pretty good education system until it got all political in recent years and this has led to lower standards. But I also think socioeconomics is a big factor for getting higher education and this effects everyone and not just minorities. You practically need a mortgage to afford a degree. I reaed somewhere that even white males have fallen below some minorities like Asians for Uni degrees.

The radical Left Marxist types are demanding free education but I am not sure that could happen with everything being so expensive. I think some nations are having a brain drain and are having to bring in immigrants to fill places because theres no qualified locals. In other words the problem is way more complex than whites oppressing minorities and denying them education.
This claim doesn't make any sense to me. What do you mean "the complete opposite of being made in God's image"? That people inherently lack worth and dignity?
I mean the idea that the human is god, god of their own life, god of nature and has the ability to recreate nature and reality is the opposite of humans being made in Gods image. One focuses within and the other to God as the source of truth and reality.
We come back around to needing to spell out what it means to be made in God's image; because I would think that celebrating diversity is about celebrating the way all people are indeed made in the image of God.
Yes and that means that we are all one, united as Gods children. Each individual being unique yet worthy. Within this people are not seen by the colour of their skin, their gender or other identity. God is manifested in human nature which gives humans their worth.

This is the complete opposite of Woke ideology and identity politics which divides society rather than being about equality and inclusion.

Truth is no longer in God, His creation or purpose for humankind but in humans themselves, their feelings, experiences and identity. There is no objective reality, nature or God/s so humans and nature can be recreated not in Gods image but in the image of humans, their ideologies and beliefs.
 
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Paidiske

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So theres a problem with the thinking in the first place and whether we can to trust them to get things right at the moment with creating a better society.
I don't think we can entirely trust anybody. Nobody's going to get things entirely right. It's always going to be a process of trying things, adjusting, and learning as we go.
I disagree. The West has had a long history of immigrants coming to be educated and get work and create businesses...
Which is of no comfort to people who are citizens of those countries but can't access higher education.
The radical Left Marxist types are demanding free education but I am not sure that could happen with everything being so expensive.
We had government funded university degrees here for a while (1974-1989). I think we could do it again if we prioritised it.
In other words the problem is way more complex than whites oppressing minorities and denying them education.
Sigh. Of course it's more complex than that. But that doesn't mean that there aren't issues faced by particular communities. Didn't the prime minister recently point out that Indigenous folks are more likely to go to gaol than university?
I mean the idea that the human is god, god of their own life, god of nature and has the ability to recreate nature and reality is the opposite of humans being made in Gods image.
Oh, well. I don't think that's an accurate description of the ideas you're disagreeing with.
Yes and that means that we are all one, united as Gods children. Each individual being unique yet worthy. Within this people are not seen by the colour of their skin, their gender or other identity. God is manifested in human nature which gives humans their worth.

This is the complete opposite of Woke ideology and identity politics which divides society rather than being about equality and inclusion.
Here's the problem, though. When people face disadvantage for things like their ethnicity, their gender, or other identity, how do we raise awareness of that, and address it, without being able to point out that their identity is relevant?

Because when racism is real, sexism is real, homophobia is real (and so on), and have significant impacts on people's lives, we can't just ignore that and claim that because we're all made in the image of God, there's no problem. It's because we're all made in the image of God that we have to be honest about and face up to the problem.
 
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stevevw

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I don't think we can entirely trust anybody. Nobody's going to get things entirely right. It's always going to be a process of trying things, adjusting, and learning as we go.
I don't think we should just try anything especially when it is forced on everyone like how Woke and identity politics is being pushed. I think we have already got some important principles right through the process of learning by our experiences of the horrors humans can inflict on each other.

These are long held Western ideas like Rule of Law, Human Rights, Individual freedom and Liberty, Freedom of speech, Democracy ect. But these long held truths are being threatened by the new religion of Woke.
Which is of no comfort to people who are citizens of those countries but can't access higher education.
Its no comfort to the growing reality that most people will not be able to go to Uni due to inflated costs in a commercial and consumer economy. Many people cannot even afford power let along higher education. Its not just minorities but even locals who are missing out.
We had government funded university degrees here for a while (1974-1989). I think we could do it again if we prioritised it.
Like I said we don't even have the money to prop up the health system with an aging population and less young people to pay for ressources. Though I think we could prioritize certain areas with nore on the job traineeships such as reintroducing training hospitals. But part of the problem also is that the government has stuffed education with all this ideology rubbish which has dumb down edeucation. That needs to change and we need to get back to basics.
Sigh. Of course it's more complex than that. But that doesn't mean that there aren't issues faced by particular communities. Didn't the prime minister recently point out that Indigenous folks are more likely to go to gaol than university?
In saying its a complex issue with several influencing factors doesn't mean denying there are those facing disadvantage. The plight of indigenous peoples has been a problem from the beginning when the West expanded into their territories. I am not sure its even a case of getting more indigenous people into university being the solution. Its more fundemnetal than that. Are we just pushing them to be more like us rather than understanding their culture. What makes them tick and what they want.
Oh, well. I don't think that's an accurate description of the ideas you're disagreeing with.
Thats exactly what ideologues believe. Just read whats behind the thinking. Behind the Postmodern thinking of DEI, CRT, CSJ, QT, LGBTIQ+. Its all there to see in the current policies. The fact we live in a Postmodernist society is enough. Postmodernism is the idea that there is no God, no objective reality, no Truth or scientific facts. Rather truth is self referential. Its created by the individual and group identity they belong to. The idea of CRT and QT is that race and gender are social constructions. Its all there. I have already provided evidence for this.
Here's the problem, though. When people face disadvantage for things like their ethnicity, their gender, or other identity, how do we raise awareness of that, and address it, without being able to point out that their identity is relevant?
Because when racism is real, sexism is real, homophobia is real (and so on), and have significant impacts on people's lives, we can't just ignore that and claim that because we're all made in the image of God, there's no problem. It's because we're all made in the image of God that we have to be honest about and face up to the problem.
We can achieve fairness and equality by pointing to the disadvantage itself and not the identity and by creating an environment and culture where everyone has the opportunity to gain the certain Rights we have already established as mentioned above. Individual worth being made in Gods image, and freedom, a common good that unites everyone, one identity rather than many, the Golden Rule ect.

That way if anyone, blacks, women, disabled, whites, able bodied, whatever person is a valued individual who has dignity and worth and should be given those natural God given rights which no State or human can deny. It takes the identity politics out of the equation because it treats everyone as unique individuals worthy of the same Rights.

But unfortunately we have abdoned these Truths in favor of human made ideas for human worth which inevitably gets it wrong as we are fallible beings with an evil selfish side as well as a nobel side.

The thing about identity politics according to the ideology that there is no truth and everything is up for interpretation is that you can break down society and disadvantage in unlimited ways where we would be forever bogged down in rules and regulations policing each division of edifference in every situation when these divisions cross without any objective way to determine what is disadvantage or not and which disadvantage deserves the most support.

Even if this were possible and its not that would require draconian regulations and laws to police which would make any percieved disadvantage and injustice pale into insignificance to the harm it would cause society by denying the fundemental freedoms the West has come to know and enjoy.
 
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rjs330

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Care to cite a SCIENTIFIC source that shows these errors?

As in, something written by an ACTUAL SCIENTIST who works in this field?

Yes, you post one article by a woman who has no healthcare qualifications and is known to be a transphobe, and think you have proven scientific studies wrong. Jennifer Block vs. transgender people

I give actual studies, you give op eds. The guy who wrote this has a degree in political science, not any field of healthcare.

Why don't you get your information about healthcare from healthcare professionals?
Who do you oi think the leaders in these countries are? They are health care professionals who have said the studies are full of faults and problematic. Your continuing to reference faulty and untrustworthy studies isn't helping. There are no good long term studies. The articles I use typically have links to findings. Here's some more.

You are being redirected...

Tavistock trust whistleblower David Bell: ‘I believed I was doing the right thing’

Sweden’s Karolinska Ends All Use of Puberty Blockers and Cross-Sex Hormones for Minors Outside of Clinical Studies

Following a comprehensive review of evidence, the NBHW concluded that the evidence base for hormonal interventions for gender-dysphoric youth is of low quality, and that hormonal treatments may carry risks. NBHW also concluded that the evidence for pediatric transition comes from studies where the population was markedly different from the cases presenting for care today. In addition, NBHW noted increasing reports of detransition and transition-related regret among youth who transitioned in recent years.


Medical societies in France, Australia, and New Zealand have also leant away from early medicalisation.2627 And NHS England, which is in the midst of an independent review of gender identity services, recently said that there was “scarce and inconclusive evidence to support clinical decision making”28 for minors with gender dysphoria29 and that for most who present before puberty it will be a “transient phase,” requiring clinicians to focus on psychological support and to be “mindful” even of the risks of social transition.30

Gender dysphoria in young people is rising—and so is professional disagreement

For example, one of the commissioned systematic reviews found that the strength of evidence for the conclusions that hormonal treatment “may improve” quality of life, depression, and anxiety among transgender people was “low,” and it emphasised the need for more research, “especially among adolescents.”35 The reviewers also concluded that “it was impossible to draw conclusions about the effects of hormone therapy” on death by suicide.

‘Trust the Experts’ Is Not Enough

A peer-reviewed, systematic review of clinical guidelines published in 2021 gave Endocrine Society’s guidelines a score of 1 out of 6, and WPATH’s guidelines a score of 0 out of 6.

Puberty Blockers and Suicidality in Adolescents Suffering from Gender Dysphoria


Recommendations - Choices in health care
Although strong recommendations have been made for invasive and potentially irreversible interventions, high-quality scientific data on the effects of this approach are generally lacking. Limitations of the existing transgender literature include general lack of randomized prospective trial design, small sample size, recruitment bias, short study duration, high subject dropout rates, and reliance on "expert" opinion. Existing data reveal significant intervention-associated morbidity and raise serious concern that the primary goal of suicide prevention is not achieved

Deficiencies in Scientific Evidence for Medical Management of Gender Dysphoria - PubMed

Bottom line, you continuing to try and state the studies show something doesn't fly. There is a ton of evidence out there that say they are poor quality and not reliable. That's why the Swedes, Fins, French, the British and Norwegians are all backing off from them. They all have come to recognize that they were bad studies.


https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2150346

Several recent international systematic reviews of evidence have concluded that the practice of pediatric gender transition rests on low to very low quality evidence—meaning that the benefits reported by the existing studies are unlikely to be true due to profound problems in the study designs (National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE), Citation2020a, Citation2020b; Pasternack et al., Citation2019; SBU (Swedish Agency for Health Technology Assessment and Assessment of Social Services), Citation2022). Following these systematic reviews of evidence, three European countries—Sweden, Finland and England—have begun to articulate new and much more cautious treatment guidelines for gender dysphoric youth, which prioritize noninvasive psychosocial interventions while sharply restricting the provision of hormones and surgery (COHERE (Council for Choices in Health Care), Citation2020; Socialstyrelsen [National Board of Health and Welfare], Citation2022; NHS, Citation2022a).

You've been duped by the transactivists.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Ooh, sure. I can see how returning women to being subjugated legally will make marriage safe and happy. (/sarcasm).

Subjugated legally?

Apparently about 5% of stay at home parents are fathers, in Australia.


In America it's about 16%. That's not really so very exceedingly rare.

Can you give me the percentage that are....

1. Married.
2. Unemployed and not seeking employment.
3. Not retired.

Because unfortunately, once we get rid of the single fathers and fathers who work from home, I expect that percentage is much smaller.


Kuperberg has spent nearly 10 years researching stay-at-home parenting. She said right now about 14% of dads with young children are out of the workforce, not actively looking for a job and taking care of the kids full time. Pre-COVID, that number was in the 1-5% range.

The 1-5% range. That means it's not an option for 95-99% of men.

Ah. We come back to the massive problems with American healthcare. Talk about collision of worldviews...

Well....you can wish for whatever you want but we live in reality.


Yes. Pastoral neglect, sacramental neglect, failure to actually do what you're there to do.

How does one quantify those things?

Really? Working fathers are accused of being bad fathers, or neglecting their children, because they work? Because that's something I've never seen.

Yeah...absent from their children's lives, they get blamed for "not being there" all the time.

And you can work without that child being neglected. Between two parents, extended family, and other arrangements, it's entirely possible for a child to be well cared for and have good secure relationships with his or her parents. Flexible work does help.

Great....what you're telling me is that as long as other people are around to raise your children, it's not that difficult to have children and a career.

Alternatively, if you can get someone else to work your job for you lol you can stay home and raise your children easily. It's not that difficult to have both a career and be a parent as long as you can find someone to fill one of those roles for you.

I mean....the irony of you not seeing the fact that you'd rather work 3 days a week, and need other people to do the parenting while you're absent, as indicators that it's actually extraordinarily difficult to do both....is a bit strange.

I don't believe that it's the norm for children to be neglected, even children of working parents.

Ok.


I'd be genuinely interested to see that.


I think it's the third study that showed even the idea of female soldiers was rated higher than male soldiers.

Why? Because it's ridiculous. Claiming that men are better leaders than women, based on nothing but their reproductive biology, and without any meaningful evidence, is just plain sexism and misogyny.

It's not based on reproductive biology. It's based on ability and competence. It could also be traits like IQ and disagreeableness. Even the leaders of feminism are overly masculine (Judith Butler for example) intelligent and disagreeable.


I might nuance that as anything that can provide an advantage over others.

Then the theory falls apart completely. Why should we compensate for wealth and not beauty or height or intelligence?

Privilege theory is just a child crying about the world not being fair.
Yes. But talent isn't distributed along wealth or socio-economic lines. It isn't distributed along racial lines.

Right...that's why guys like Carnegie and Rockefeller were dirt poor growing up.

It isn't distributed along gendered lines.

Ehhhh...not sure about that. Painting has a low entry barrier....yet for every great female painter there's dozens of men.

So when we can see, at a population level, that outcomes follow those lines, we can also see that something other than talent is in play.

Again....not certain that's true when 15yo boys are beating professional female soccer players. Who is the female equivalent of Rembrandt or Van Eyck?


I'm not understanding your point, here.

The working ate up time spent with her tutor.


Why does providing people with opportunity to reach their potential end in disaster?

You said potential and desires. Desires tend to outstrip potential.


You said women don't have to risk rejection. Of course we do. Even if you think men do most of the asking, not being asked is also a form of rejection.

No....it's not.

Saying that you've never witnessed something is not the same as saying that something happened. It can be true that you've never seen something that does, in fact, often happen.

Right.


Given that apparently, in America, about 1 in 6 stay at home parents are dads and you've never met one is a neat demonstration.

That's largely due to post covid unemployment and you haven't ruled out other reasons. We're talking about women being the primary breadwinners by choice....not men who lost their job and want a new one.
 
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rjs330

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Ooh, sure. I can see how returning women to being subjugated legally will make marriage safe and happy. (/sarcasm).
Women don't want men to be stay at home dads. While 91% of men fully support a woman staying home to care for the kids only 26% of women would support a man doing it.

Survey Says! Women Are Less Likely to Support Stay-at-Home Dads

Women still prefer to date and marry men with higher incomes than them by and large.

Subjugating women is not the point and it's an irrelevant statement. Feminism is stuck in the 60s and 70s. It's time to get into the 20th century and recognize the feminism of the old days of making such foolish claims is over. It's time to recognize that it's promises have failed and women know this. They by and larger prefer to be the ones to stay home with the kids and prefer a man be the primary earner. That's WOMEN. If you are not part of the majority that's fine. No one is asking or demanding that you stay home and earn less. Men certainly aren't.

In fact today many of the times younger women are earning more than the younger men. Women and receiving higher educations than men and still.prefer to marry one that earns more. Not they are not weak or silly little women.

It appears more.ane more that you personal.experiences have jaded your glasses. It's the 20th century now.
 
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