Different kinds of healing?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Bear in mind however that sometimes the text refers to the collective body of believers and sometimes to the individual.

So when it says they shall speak in new tongues for example, this may be referencing the body but not every individual.

That seems to be accurate than what Benny Hinn, Bill Johnson and Andrew Wommack are preaching. We must bear in mind that the who passage must be applied: Casting out demons, speaking in new tongues, handling snakes, drinking poison, and laying hands on the sick who will recover. We can say that part of the reference is true while ignoring the other bits.

We are not seeing all believers doing these things, therefore it is obvious that it does not apply to every individual believer. It could apply generally to the body, but we are not seeing it demonstrated across the body of Christ either sufficiently for us to say that it is true for the body. I would assert that it is more accurate to say that no one is demonstrating the passage at all because no one can provide sufficient medical and video evidence of widespread demonstration across the body of Christ.

That is the elephant in the room that no one seems to want to identify and talk about.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I disagree. Most of the gifts are only operated by The Holy Spirit inside of us.

The same gift was in operation when Peter would pass by people in the street and they would be healed. He didn't say anything or do anything, it was just the power of The Holy Spirit emanating from him that did the supernatural miracles.

I agree. So my question is: Why isn't the Holy Spirit doing it in most cases when people are trying to exercise faith for healing?

It is a failure of faith, or is it inaccurate and misapplied teaching on healing?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Im just curious brother and trying to stimulate some conversation I guess

I have identified an elephant in the room that should generate some very lively discussion.

 

[Aussie Pete]

In Mark 16 Jesus calls healing a sign that followers believers

In 1 Corinthians 12 Paul names healings as a manifestation (gift) of the Spirit.

What is the difference between the two? Do you have personal testimony bearing such evidence?

It's hard. I've prayed for people who have been healed instantly. Some got worse, not what I'd hoped for. One time I was full of doubt and God gave me a gift of faith. I've not had the same thing since (about 40 years ago). I've been healed instantly a number of times and one time, over a period of a few days. I avoided an operation that was supposed resolve the problem. That was 2-/2 years ago and I still have my gall bladder!

 

[Carl Emerson]

That seems to be accurate than what Benny Hinn, Bill Johnson and Andrew Wommack are preaching. We must bear in mind that the who passage must be applied: Casting out demons, speaking in new tongues, handling snakes, drinking poison, and laying hands on the sick who will recover. We can say that part of the reference is true while ignoring the other bits.

We are not seeing all believers doing these things, therefore it is obvious that it does not apply to every individual believer. It could apply generally to the body, but we are not seeing it demonstrated across the body of Christ either sufficiently for us to say that it is true for the body. I would assert that it is more accurate to say that no one is demonstrating the passage at all because no one can provide sufficient medical and video evidence of widespread demonstration across the body of Christ.

That is the elephant in the room that no one seems to want to identify and talk about.

I talk about it here with medical evidence.

Jesus's Ministry

Dear Friends, I am really puzzled about the almost complete absence of a central aspect of Jesus ministry in the Christian world today. When Jesus broke into the world He immediately demonstrated spiritual authority over powers and principalities that were binding peoples lives with sickness...

www.christianforums.com

However what I have had the privilege to see happen has not been in the realm of church meetings but in public places or in private homes.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I agree. So my question is: Why isn't the Holy Spirit doing it in most cases when people are trying to exercise faith for healing?

It is a failure of faith, or is it inaccurate and misapplied teaching on healing?

It's a failure of faith, not necessarily on the part of the believer.

Mark 6: …4Then Jesus said to them, “Only in his hometown, among his relatives, and in his own household is a prophet without honor.” 5So He could not perform any miracles there, except to lay His hands on a few of the sick and heal them. 6And He was amazed at their unbelief. And He went around from village to village, teaching the people.…

 

[Carl Emerson]

I agree. So my question is: Why isn't the Holy Spirit doing it in most cases when people are trying to exercise faith for healing?

It is a failure of faith, or is it inaccurate and misapplied teaching on healing?

It is a result of a misunderstanding about what faith actually is.

 

[biblelesson]

I believe anyone who is chosen out for GOD to operate in great amounts of His power will be properly trained on that topic,... the glory of GOD.

We are but imperfect vessels that He has chosen to operate through, and it is a privilege for this to happen through us. But we must maintain the position that it's not about us. GOD's glory includes the aspect that it is His decision and His work to accomplish through you. You are not involved other than to allow it to happen. It is to be Him operating the gifts and Him speaking,.... not you.

There have been saints who were led into looking at themselves just a little bit too much by other Christians and society over the years, and it led to their eventual downfall. It takes a strong mind and a strong will to not allow other people to be used by satan against you. It other words, you need to immediately know when to push them away from you.

A lot of what you are saying is true! Our power comes from God operating through us! But there is a process all Christians must go through in order for this to happen. It’s in Romans 7. Apostle Paul tells us to put off the old man (maintain the position that it’s not us) and put on the new man. The new man is where we operate in power. As long as we remain in the carnal nature, the power to heal, perform miracles, fight against the power of darkness is stagnated. Unfortunately this is not taught much in church. But, because God has taken on the task of conforming the Christian to the image of His Son, he/she will go through trials, chastisement, which brings about the results God wants to see through the Holy Spirit.

God does not select certain Christian out and give that person more, God has no respect of persons, Romans 2:11 KJV. It has to do with some Christians are attacked by Satan more. The more a Christian touches the Spirit, the more Satan will fight against him/her because that Christian has touched the Spiritual realm.

I think this is why Apostle wrote about our wrestling with principalities and not flesh and blood. To help those who go through an onslaught of spiritual attack for their faith.

You can’t immediately know when to push those away who are agents of Satan. It’s not based on having a strong mind or will, because we are no match for Satan; but the Holy Spirit is. So the Christian in those situations are taught by the Holy Spirit. Don’t forget you said we are imperfect vessels. So imperfect vessels don’t have the type of will needed to always know when to get out of bad situations. Everything has to be given, that is strength, power, discernment, faith, all given by the Holy Spirit based on God’s grace.

A Christian struggling is supposed to be “all joy” because they are being helped by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Carl Emerson]

@Watchman1 said... "my question is: Why isn't the Holy Spirit doing it in most cases when people are trying to exercise faith for healing?
It is a failure of faith, or is it inaccurate and misapplied teaching on healing?

===================================

I think a fundamental mistake made and taught is that faith is somehow a mindset that we have to maintain.

Faith is not about us, it is a gift from Him. However we can resist it and fall into unbelief.

Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ. Likewise Jesus could only do what He saw the Father doing - and saying.

But no one teaches this that I have heard. Maybe because it cant be taught but rather caught...

It is all about communion with Him and preferring His Will over our own.

Learning to see and hear His will for the moment takes years to get right.

We can read His written Word and not have faith because we haven't heard Him personally.

Having a gift to act is not enough - Jesus was supremely gifted but still couldn't act without His Word in the moment.

Most on CF simply don't get this.

The modern church in general doesn't teach this.

I have given the example of a girl very disturbed who was desperate to suicide.

She was looking for anything in the house to harm herself fatally.

Good folks prayed but to no avail - I was there and witnessed this.

Then someone suggested contacting a brother with a known ministry of deliverance from across town.

He came over and by this time she was curled up tight in the foetal position on a couch.

When he arrived I guess every one expected him to cast a troubling spirit out or such like.

What we saw was very different... because what Jesus was saying to Him was unique for the moment.

As he gently approached her tight and desperate form, he simply said "thank you Jesus for this hand" and the hand relaxed.

Then the other hand. and so on... It was beautiful to watch because He was hearing the Father. Soon she was completely restored and in her right mind.

But here is the rub.

This cant be promoted as a technique to be used.

Only He knows what is appropriate for the moment.

So lesson number one for encouraging folks to move in the gifts should be all about hearing the Fathers instructions in the moment.

Then and only then one can move in faith.

Faith comes from hearing His Word in the moment.

Frankly if this is not taught, the chance of operating in a gift falsely is very high.

This explains the lack of evidence of Him healing. It is not that the gifts have ceased, it is more a matter of false teaching in their use.

Generally folks are under the impression, or are told that they have a gift and are encouraged to use it.

Folks can even be encouraged to 'practice the gifts' on one another.

This is folly because the gifts have to be in His Hands and under His Instruction.

First hear Him.

Then there is Faith.

Then folks are healed.

Then the cessationists will have to swallow their pride and repent of their false teaching.

 

[biblelesson]

@Watchman1 said... "my question is: Why isn't the Holy Spirit doing it in most cases when people are trying to exercise faith for healing?
It is a failure of faith, or is it inaccurate and misapplied teaching on healing?

===================================

I think a fundamental mistake made and taught is that faith is somehow a mindset that we have to maintain.

Faith is not about us, it is a gift from Him. However we can resist it and fall into unbelief.

Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ. Likewise Jesus could only do what He saw the Father doing - and saying.

But no one teaches this that I have heard. Maybe because it cant be taught but rather caught...

It is all about communion with Him and preferring His Will over our own.

Learning to see and hear His will for the moment takes years to get right.

We can read His written Word and not have faith because we haven't heard Him personally.

Having a gift to act is not enough - Jesus was supremely gifted but still couldn't act without His Word in the moment.

Most on CF simply don't get this.

The modern church in general doesn't teach this.

I have given the example of a girl very disturbed who was desperate to suicide.

She was looking for anything in the house to harm herself fatally.

Good folks prayed but to no avail - I was there and witnessed this.

Then someone suggested contacting a brother with a known ministry of deliverance from across town.

He came over and by this time she was curled up tight in the foetal position on a couch.

When he arrived I guess every one expected him to cast a troubling spirit out or such like.

What we saw was very different... because what Jesus was saying to Him was unique for the moment.

As he gently approached her tight and desperate form, he simply said "thank you Jesus for this hand" and the hand relaxed.

Then the other hand. and so on... It was beautiful to watch because He was hearing the Father. Soon she was completely restored and in her right mind.

But here is the rub.

This cant be promoted as a technique to be used.

Only He knows what is appropriate for the moment.

So lesson number one for encouraging folks to move in the gifts should be all about hearing the Fathers instructions in the moment.

Then and only then one can move in faith.

Faith comes from hearing His Word in the moment.

Frankly if this is not taught, the chance of operating in a gift falsely is very high.

This explains the lack of evidence of Him healing. It is not that the gifts have ceased, it is more a matter of false teaching in their use.

Generally folks are under the impression, or are told that they have a gift and are encouraged to use it.

Folks can even be encouraged to 'practice the gifts' on one another.

This is folly because the gifts have to be in His Hands and under His Instruction.

First hear Him.

Then there is Faith.

Then folks are healed.

Then the cessationists will have to swallow their pride and repent of their false teaching.

I have to agree with this. When the Holy Spirit operates, it’s specifically for the guidance in that moment to move us forward, to heal, whatever we are dealing with. Just because I saw someone lead in a particular way does not mean I will be lead the same way. Even when I experienced healing about a particular situation where I was lead by the Holy Spirit, does not mean the Holy Spirit will lead me in the same way years later if a similar situation occur.

The Holy Spirit is our guide on a personal level daily. What works for one person might not work for another.

The Holy Spirit Has been talking to me and guiding me through water dreams; telling me what and who to leave alone based on the condition of the water.

As for miracles and healing, there is a pouring down of the Spirit with Power that takes control of our spirit that cannot be mistaken, operating through us in His Beauty.

This is what missing. Nothing can happen without this pouring down. The Bible is truth. And what the scripture says about God pouring out His Spirit is true, Acts 2:17 KJV. How will we know we have His Spirit? We must actually feel and experience the pouring down into us. He said that’s what would happen.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I talk about it here with medical evidence.

Jesus's Ministry

Dear Friends, I am really puzzled about the almost complete absence of a central aspect of Jesus ministry in the Christian world today. When Jesus broke into the world He immediately demonstrated spiritual authority over powers and principalities that were binding peoples lives with sickness...

www.christianforums.com

However what I have had the privilege to see happen has not been in the realm of church meetings but in public places or in private homes.

My view is that if Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Bill Johnson, and Andrew Wommack are applying the verses in Mark 16 accurately, then 98% of sick people should be healed in their meetings. It is obvious they are not, so I have to conclude that they are misapplying those verses and therefore teaching them wrongly, and them blaming the sick people for not getting themselves healed by their own faith.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It's a failure of faith, not necessarily on the part of the believer.

Mark 6: …4Then Jesus said to them, “Only in his hometown, among his relatives, and in his own household is a prophet without honor.” 5So He could not perform any miracles there, except to lay His hands on a few of the sick and heal them. 6And He was amazed at their unbelief. And He went around from village to village, teaching the people.…

That passage refers to the fact that people in Jesus' home town refused to believe that He was the Messiah, the Son of God. It had nothing to do with faith for healing. They could not see past the person who grew up with them from childhood. This is why He said that a prophet is honoured, except in his home town and in his own family.

In my view, the passage is Mark 16 is being taught falsely by applying it as a requirement for all believers, instead of general signs that follow believers in certain circumstances. We have to include snake handling and drinking poison as part of the reference, and we know that we can apply that to every individual believer.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It is a result of a misunderstanding about what faith actually is.

I think it is more of a misunderstanding of what the Mark 16 reference actually teaches, therefore it is being taught falsely and leading believers astray to believe things that the Holy Spirit doesn't intend.

 

[Carl Emerson]

My view is that if Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Bill Johnson, and Andrew Wommack are applying the verses in Mark 16 accurately, then 98% of sick people should be healed in their meetings. It is obvious they are not, so I have to conclude that they are misapplying those verses and therefore teaching them wrongly, and them blaming the sick people for not getting themselves healed by their own faith.

We are witnessing a mess...

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think it is more of a misunderstanding of what the Mark 16 reference actually teaches, therefore it is being taught falsely and leading believers astray to believe things that the Holy Spirit doesn't intend.

That as well...

 

[ARBITER01]

I agree. So my question is: Why isn't the Holy Spirit doing it in most cases when people are trying to exercise faith for healing?

It is a failure of faith, or is it inaccurate and misapplied teaching on healing?

Oh,... you really want to know?

Take the example of Peter. When he would walk by the people lined up to just have him pass by,..... they were all healed.

Peter didn't say anything, he just walked by them while emanating the power of GOD upon them. He didn't pray for them or lay hands upon them, he just walked by them and GOD did the work.

Why is this? Whelp,.... he had an anointing upon his head. The crown of life.

That's the truth of it, accept it or deny it as you wish.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oh,... you really want to know?

Take the example of Peter. When he would walk by the people lined up to just have him pass by,..... they were all healed.

Peter didn't say anything, he just walked by them while emanating the power of GOD upon them. He didn't pray for them or lay hands upon them, he just walked by them and GOD did the work.

Why is this? Whelp,.... he had an anointing upon his head. The crown of life.

That's the truth of it, accept it or deny it as you wish.

Acts 5:15-16:
"15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one."

When we read what verse 15 actually says, we see that the people laid the sick on the streets in the hope that the shadow of Peter passing by might heal some of them. It does not say that his shadow actually did heal those people.

When we get to verse 16, we are seeing a different scenario that didn't involve Peter's shadow. These people were brought to the Apostles and they were healed through their ministry.

To say that all these people who were brought to Jerusalem were healed by Peter's shadow is forcing a combination of verses 15 and 16, when in actual fact they were separate events. Therefore, there is nothing in verse 15 that states that anyone was actually healed by Peter's shadow. So we have to be careful that we don't make the Scripture say what it doesn't actually say.

To say that Peter had a special anointing that the other Apostles didn't have, is fanciful and does not reflect what the Scripture actually says. Peter wasn't even the leader of the Jerusalem church. James was.

Faith on the part of the sick person or the person praying over him does not heal. The Holy Spirit heals when and where He wishes, and He is sovereign. The teaching of guaranteed healing through personal faith is false teaching and has caused immeasurable harm to people who believe it.

 

[ARBITER01]

Acts 5:15-16:
"15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one."

When we read what verse 15 actually says, we see that the people laid the sick on the streets in the hope that the shadow of Peter passing by might heal some of them. It does not say that his shadow actually did heal those people.

When we get to verse 16, we are seeing a different scenario that didn't involve Peter's shadow. These people were brought to the Apostles and they were healed through their ministry.

To say that all these people who were brought to Jerusalem were healed by Peter's shadow is forcing a combination of verses 15 and 16, when in actual fact they were separate events. Therefore, there is nothing in verse 15 that states that anyone was actually healed by Peter's shadow. So we have to be careful that we don't make the Scripture say what it doesn't actually say.

To say that Peter had a special anointing that the other Apostles didn't have, is fanciful and does not reflect what the Scripture actually says. Peter wasn't even the leader of the Jerusalem church. James was.

Faith on the part of the sick person or the person praying over him does not heal. The Holy Spirit heals when and where He wishes, and He is sovereign. The teaching of guaranteed healing through personal faith is false teaching and has caused immeasurable harm to people who believe it.

Like I said, accept it or deny it as you wish, but it is the truth in the end.

Jesus had an anointing for healing as well as the apostles had their own anointing from GOD. It's still offered to anyone who desires to receive it.

I'm not going to waste a lot of time trying to explain it further.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Like I said, accept it or deny it as you wish, but it is the truth in the end.

Jesus had an anointing for healing as well as the apostles had their own anointing from GOD. It's still offered to anyone who desires to receive it.

I'm not going to waste a lot of time trying to explain it further.

No problem. But I do have a minor question: If in meetings such as conducted by Benny Hinn and others where people are slain in the Spirit through the power of God, if there is enough power to make a person fall down, why is there not enough power to heal them?

 

[ARBITER01]

No problem. But I do have a minor question: If in meetings such as conducted by Benny Hinn and others where people are slain in the Spirit through the power of God, if there is enough power to make a person fall down, why is there not enough power to heal them?

Who says any of that on that stage is from GOD?

I wouldn't.

Read up Maria Woodworth Etter some Oscarr. She was an evangelist here in America and had an amazing healing anointing for 45 years or more. Testimonies from numerous people who received healing through her ministry are all in her books.

Pay attention to the old saints, not the recent ones who came on the scene with all this flamboyancy that had nothing to do with scripture.