How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

[zoidar]

Christians that hold to 'libertarian' or 'uncaused' free will are logically invoking causation by chance, whether they realize they are doing so or not.

Christians not holding to libertarian free will logically invoke a nonresponsibility of man whether they realize they are doing it or not.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm quite sure most Christians do believe in free libertarian will, most have just not put that much thought into it. But if you would ask them if they believe all that happens is predetermined or if there is free will they would go with free will.

Tell me again what libertarian free will is, then. Does God cause choices or not? Do the choices go uncaused, or just how do they come about?

But if you ask most Christians if the believe all that happens is predetermined by God, AS OPPOSED to free will, then you have already ruined the objectiveness of the test. You have set the one against the other, instead of suggesting that they are not exclusive.

I believe in libertarian free will and God's sovereignity and omnipotence. They are not exclusive. Are you sure you fully understand what it means to be sovereign and omnipotent?

Tell me again what libertarian free will is, then. Are you like that fellow I heard about who poetically said, "It is the most sovereign thing God can do, to give up some of his sovereignty."? Balderdash.

In other words, show me the logic that demonstrates that God can do the self-contradictory, to will it that man can do anything uncaused. And answer, "Did God not speak all this into existence, knowing every detail forthcoming of that decree?"

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said:
Christians that hold to 'libertarian' or 'uncaused' free will are logically invoking causation by chance, whether they realize they are doing so or not.

Christians not holding to libertarian free will logically invoke a nonresponsibility of man whether they realize they are doing it or not.

Clever retort. But you cannot prove it.

But first, once again, define "libertarian free will". Maybe I've been taking you wrong all this time. And please, don't just say something generic, like true choice. Tell me what is implied by it — how it is not caused by God.

 

[zoidar]

...

Omnipotence and sovereignity does NOT mean controlling everything! It means be able to control everything or have everything in the reach of one's control. You need to come up with a new word that describes God controlling everything, if there isn't such a word already.

I'll get to the other stuff later.

 

[Clare73]

Tell me again what libertarian free will is, then. Does God cause choices or not? Do the choices go uncaused, or just how do they come about?

But if you ask most Christians if the believe all that happens is predetermined by God, AS OPPOSED to free will, then you have already ruined the objectiveness of the test. You have set the one against the other, instead of suggesting that they are not exclusive.

Tell me again what libertarian free will is, then. Are you like that fellow I heard about who poetically said, "It is the most sovereign thing God can do, to give up some of his sovereignty."? Balderdash.

In other words, show me the logic that demonstrates that God can do the self-contradictory, to will it that man can do anything uncaused. And answer, "Did God not speak all this into existence, knowing every detail forthcoming of that decree?"

Great discussion. . .

 

[zoidar]

Tell me again what libertarian free will is, then. Does God cause choices or not? Do the choices go uncaused, or just how do they come about?

I believe they are caused by our soul. Our soul, our innermost being, makes uncaused choices. It's not something to understand logically, it just is, for us to experience. It's like logically explaining consciousness.

But if you ask most Christians if the believe all that happens is predetermined by God, AS OPPOSED to free will, then you have already ruined the objectiveness of the test. You have set the one against the other, instead of suggesting that they are not exclusive.

I don't have statistics but I'm quite sure most Christians aren't compatibilists, that most Christians think God predeterming everything and free will are exclusive.

Tell me again what libertarian free will is, then. Are you like that fellow I heard about who poetically said, "It is the most sovereign thing God can do, to give up some of his sovereignty."? Balderdash.

Responded above.

In other words, show me the logic that demonstrates that God can do the self-contradictory, to will it that man can do anything uncaused.

Responded above.

And answer, "Did God not speak all this into existence, knowing every detail forthcoming of that decree?"

Knowing every detail is not controlling every detail. And every detail is not forthcoming from that decree.

 

[zoidar]

Great discussion. . .

Honestly I think it sucks we even need to have this discussion. And whatever we will make from this, God's truth/mystery still remains untouched by our limited intellects. Like science, it's "true" until we come up with something better.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Omnipotence and sovereignity does NOT mean controlling everything! It means be able to control everything or have everything in the reach of one's control. You need to come up with a new word that describes God controlling everything, if there isn't such a word already.

I'll get to the other stuff later.

I'll wait.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Honestly I think it sucks we even need to have this discussion. And whatever we will make from this, God's truth/mystery still remains untouched by our limited intellects. Like science, it's "true" until we come up with something better.

I think well of you, zoidar. Please just be sure you don't represent self-determinism in your theology.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I believe they are caused by our soul. Our soul, our innermost being, makes uncaused choices. It's not something to understand logically, it just is, for us to experience. It's like logically explaining consciousness.

I don't have statistics but I'm quite sure most Christians aren't compatibilists, that most Christians think God predeterming everything and free will are exclusive.

Responded above.

Responded above.

Knowing every detail is not controlling every detail.

While I agree that not everything about God can be understood by temporal man logically, God is nevertheless logical. He 'invented' logic. What we refer to as the three laws of logic are applicable to all we know about God. They are, 1) The law of Identity; 2) The law of non-contradiction; and, 3) The law of excluded middle.

We should not invent narratives to support our feelings about God. Real choice is definitely in Scripture. Uncaused choice is not.

 

[zoidar]

Mark Quayle said:
Christians that hold to 'libertarian' or 'uncaused' free will are logically invoking causation by chance, whether they realize they are doing so or not.

Clever retort. But you cannot prove it.

If i sin today, why am I? Because I choose to. Why am I making that choice. Because of who I am. Who made me the way I am? God! Who then could make me choose not to sin? I? Nope! God? Yes! Then God is responsible.

But first, once again, define "libertarian free will". Maybe I've been taking you wrong all this time. And please, don't just say something generic, like true choice. Tell me what is implied by it — how it is not caused by God.

I can describe what it means, not how it works. You want me to describe how something works only God knows.

 

[zoidar]

I think well of you, zoidar. Please just be sure you don't represent self-determinism in your theology.

I hardly know what self-determinism is. I have to read up on that.

Edit: Did some googling, still don't understand the concept.

 

[zoidar]

While I agree that not everything about God can be understood by temporal man logically, God is nevertheless logical. He 'invented' logic. What we refer to as the three laws of logic are applicable to all we know about God. They are, 1) The law of Identity; 2) The law of non-contradiction; and, 3) The law of excluded middle.

I have really no comment about it.

We should not invent narratives to support our feelings about God.

Agree!

Real choice is definitely in Scripture.

Agree! Real choice and responsibility.

Uncaused choice is not.

Neither does it say it's caused. Scripture is not dealing with the topic the way you suggest. It does however show us being responsible, which leads to the notion of libertarian free will. And Scripture does not describe God as controlling every detail either.

Why do you think we feel guilt? Is it because we really could do something differently, or because it feels like we could, but in reality it is an illusion?

 

[zoidar]

God spoke it all into existence: "Let there be..." That is decree. If he had not decreed it, there would not be it, to know.

What I wrote was hypothetical to show what God knows is not connected to His decrees. He knows everything from being the character of God. Whether He has decreed everything or not does not change the fact that God is all knowing.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I have really no comment about it.

Agree!

Agree! Real choice and responsibility.

Neither does it say it's caused. Scripture is not dealing with the topic the way you suggest. It does however show us being responsible, which leads to the notion of libertarian free will. And Scripture does not describe God as controlling every detail either.

Why do you think we feel guilt? Is it because we really could do something differently, or because it feels like we could, but in reality it is an illusion?

We feel guilt because we are guilty. I don't say otherwise.

WE chose to do wrong. The notion that it is an illusion that we could have chosen otherwise is irrelevant to the fact that we chose wrong.

But Scripture does say that God made all things. Are facts not things? Do you think it is only material things John 1 is referring to?

 

[Mark Quayle]

If i sin today, why am I? Because I choose to. Why am I making that choice. Because of who I am. Who made me the way I am? God! Who then could make me avoid choosing to sin? I? Nope! God? Yes! Then God is responsible.

You are drawing up a narrative that is missing a few items. You are describing a minimalist first cause, without including all that makes him God. You are describing him from a temporally bound, and human at that, viewpoint. The rule we make, that God can't be involved, or it is his responsibility and not ours, is not a valid argument. He operates both immediately and very remotely. He made us. So everything about us is made.

I can describe what it means, not how it works. You want me to describe how something works only God knows.

I appreciate your honesty there.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What I wrote was hypothetical to show what God knows is not connected to His decrees. He knows everything from being the character of God. Whether He has decreed everything or not does not change the fact that God is all knowing.

His decree is his speaking it into being. If it is fact, he decreed it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I hardly know what self-determinism is. I have to read up on that.

Edit: Did some googling, still don't understand the concept.

It's ok. Google complicates a simple concept. By paraphrase, self-determinism is determining for self, what happens concerning self. An attitude of self-determinism would object to authority, for example. It is also endemic to the notion that man is his own, not the property of a higher being.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If i sin today, why am I? Because I choose to. Why am I making that choice. Because of who I am. Who made me the way I am? God! Who then could make me avoid choosing to sin? I? Nope! God? Yes! Then God is responsible.

You are drawing up a narrative that is missing a few items. You are describing a minimalist first cause, without including all that makes him God. You are describing him from a temporally bound, and human at that, viewpoint.

Even if all you say is true, it still must fall under the umbrella of the fact that God spoke all fact into being.

I can describe what it means, not how it works. You want me to describe how something works only God knows.

I appreciate your honesty there.

 

[zoidar]

But Scripture does say that God made all things. Are facts not things? Do you think it is only material things John 1 is referring to?

I don't think John 1 includes facts. This is a bit like "all" doesn't always mean everyone. In John 1 "all things" doesn't mean everything. I think John is saying creation is from God, it's a wide concept, not specific.