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Anti intellectualism directed against science.

stevevw

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Your posts have made it perfectly clear you think scientific facts are subjective and can vary from person to person.
Can you point out exactly where I have made it clear as my position that scientific facts are subjective.
What game are you playing?
Are you seriously suggesting there is an intellectual content to anti-intellectualism such as post modernism or is this simply a smokescreen for your own anti-science based agenda?
Postmodernism is an intellectual position.

Postmodernism is an intellectual stance or mode of discourse[1][2]

I have made it clear I am not anti science. A simple search on CF will show this is the case. I am merely pointing out how postmodernist view science. Part of the problem I think is that there are many so called scientific facts claimed that have no clear basis so are open to interpretation especially in social sciences.

Another problem I think is that people still dispute science facts despite them being verified independently because they are skeptical of science. Like climate change deniers. Fake facts flood the market and muddy the waters and many can be influenced into believing 'maybe science facts are not facts'.
It's no coincidence the links you throw up probably reflect your own views on science as well as a post modernistic reaction against science.

The facts are individuals like yourself and anti-intellectuals engage in confirmation bias where the internet provides a ready made source to support any anti-science idea.
That doesn't make sense. Why would I as a Christian hide behind an ideology that denies the objective truth about God and morality and support the idea that there is no fixed nature when it comes to Gods creation including the laws of nature, the binary nature of male and female and Gods truth of the marriage union and family which postmodernist dispute. I would be shooting my own beliefs down in support of ideas that reject these truths of God.
You don’t seem to understand it is what comes out of the other end of the tertiary education system which counts.
What makes you think lowering the entrance requirements for students will automatically result in a production line of dumbed down postgraduate qualified scientists?
In Australia to qualify to do a PhD requires a first class or second class 2A honours degree irrespective of the number of undergraduates who go on to an honours degree.
I am using the end results of how this postmodernist politically correct and woke ideology has dumbed down education. For example
studies have shown that literacy levels and general skills have decreased compared to past generations.
Cancel Culture has captured campus

One half of all students who enroll in America’s colleges never graduate.
With the campaign for “diversity above all things,” there is a deliberate abandonment of a core of common knowledge for students.
In summary, PC has shifted the focus of higher education from the search for truth to mere indoctrination and political transformation.


Why Australia’s students keep falling behind
Australia’s schoolchildren are
sliding down international tests that measure their academic performance

Falling College Academic Standards: New Evidence
American students enter college less prepared than counterparts in other countries or, in some respects, Americans of two generations ago. From 1972 to 2016, the average verbal score on the SAT test fell about 35 points, and on the PISA international assessment in science and math (given to 15 year old secondary students), U.S. student performance is abysmal, well below Asian standards (China, Japan, Korea) and even relatively poorer European nations like Poland.

The National Association of Scholars believes that cancel culture within higher education has reached an extraordinary level. Indeed, many colleges and universities have become progressive seminaries. The threat to academic freedom is obvious: when those within academia are unable to contradict progressive orthodoxy, the disinterested pursuit of truth is lost. Reasoned scholarship is traded in for the cheap, vapid substitute of political activism. And in the long run, higher education itself dies.
Tracking Cancel Culture in Higher Education by David Acevedo | NAS

Education in high school and university becomes an indoctrination into political perspectives that act as universal solvents, destroying all inherited wisdom. Politics replaces meaningful scholarship and historical knowledge.

A desire to be educated in a Western context is a desire to have a working knowledge of Hesiod and Homer, Thucydides and Herodotus, Plato and Aristotle, the Bible, the Church Fathers and every other canonical writer and thinker until now. When this desire is lost and what is offered instead is the culture of repudiation, then universities lose their raison d’être.

Instead of an academically rigorous curriculum subjects have been dumbed down and taught through a politically correct prism
https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;query=Id:"library/lcatalog/01242634"
You made the claim there is a high percentage of junk science in peer review.
By definition junk science is fraudulent and none of your links indicates fraud is rife in science.
Junk science is junk science. Its not necessarily fraudulent. It can also be poor science such as pseudo science when it comes to scientific rigor. Nevertheless much of why peer review articles are rejected is through misrepresentation. For example many papers have been found to contain deliberate misleading or misrepresented information. There have been the well documented examples of researchers purposely presenting false and pseudo science which was then published as valid.

Nevertheless my point was there was a high % of peer review that is not science regardless of why.

Inappropriate authorship and other fraudulent publication strategies are pervasive.

Nearly a decade ago, headlines highlighted a disturbing trend in science: The number of articles retracted by journals had increased 10-fold during the previous 10 years. Fraud accounted for some 60% of those retractions.
 
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sjastro

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Can you point out exactly where I have made it clear as my position that scientific facts are subjective.
Here is an example from your latest post.
“Part of the problem I think is that there are many so called scientific facts claimed that have no clear basis so are open to interpretation especially in social sciences:
Let me reiterate a scientific fact is not open to interpretation because it is a fact based on empirical evidence such as the diameter of the Earth being 12,742 km.

Postmodernism is an intellectual position.

Postmodernism is an intellectual stance or mode of discourse[1][2]

I have made it clear I am not anti science. A simple search on CF will show this is the case. I am merely pointing out how postmodernist view science. Part of the problem I think is that there are many so called scientific facts claimed that have no clear basis so are open to interpretation especially in social sciences.

Another problem I think is that people still dispute science facts despite them being verified independently because they are skeptical of science. Like climate change deniers. Fake facts flood the market and muddy the waters and many can be influenced into believing 'maybe science facts are not facts'.

That doesn't make sense. Why would I as a Christian hide behind an ideology that denies the objective truth about God and morality and support the idea that there is no fixed nature when it comes to Gods creation including the laws of nature, the binary nature of male and female and Gods truth of the marriage union and family which postmodernist dispute. I would be shooting my own beliefs down in support of ideas that reject these truths of God.
What I find confusing about your posts is the ambiguity of what you are trying to criticize; is it about post-modernism or science?
If it is about science you clearly do have an anti-intellectual view of science.
I am using the end results of how this postmodernist politically correct and woke ideology has dumbed down education. For example
studies have shown that literacy levels and general skills have decreased compared to past generations.
Cancel Culture has captured campus

One half of all students who enroll in America’s colleges never graduate.
With the campaign for “diversity above all things,” there is a deliberate abandonment of a core of common knowledge for students.
In summary, PC has shifted the focus of higher education from the search for truth to mere indoctrination and political transformation.


Why Australia’s students keep falling behind
Australia’s schoolchildren are
sliding down international tests that measure their academic performance

Falling College Academic Standards: New Evidence
American students enter college less prepared than counterparts in other countries or, in some respects, Americans of two generations ago. From 1972 to 2016, the average verbal score on the SAT test fell about 35 points, and on the PISA international assessment in science and math (given to 15 year old secondary students), U.S. student performance is abysmal, well below Asian standards (China, Japan, Korea) and even relatively poorer European nations like Poland.

The National Association of Scholars believes that cancel culture within higher education has reached an extraordinary level. Indeed, many colleges and universities have become progressive seminaries. The threat to academic freedom is obvious: when those within academia are unable to contradict progressive orthodoxy, the disinterested pursuit of truth is lost. Reasoned scholarship is traded in for the cheap, vapid substitute of political activism. And in the long run, higher education itself dies.
Tracking Cancel Culture in Higher Education by David Acevedo | NAS

Education in high school and university becomes an indoctrination into political perspectives that act as universal solvents, destroying all inherited wisdom. Politics replaces meaningful scholarship and historical knowledge.

A desire to be educated in a Western context is a desire to have a working knowledge of Hesiod and Homer, Thucydides and Herodotus, Plato and Aristotle, the Bible, the Church Fathers and every other canonical writer and thinker until now. When this desire is lost and what is offered instead is the culture of repudiation, then universities lose their raison d’être.

Instead of an academically rigorous curriculum subjects have been dumbed down and taught through a politically correct prism
https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;query=Id:"library/lcatalog/01242634"
Not only did you ignore my question of how the lowering of the entrance requirements for students will automatically produce dumbed down postgraduates with seven unrelated links which puts it in the territory of a Gish Gallop, but also equating the drop in education standards with PC and wokeness is flat out wrong.

The decline in educational standards in schools in Australia and the US has been known for decades far longer than PC and wokeness even became part of the narrative.
The reasons given are declining education resources resulting in overcrowded schools, a decline in the quality of teachers, a failure to adopt a back to basics approach in teaching etc.
Also in the same time frame has seen girls reach the stage of outperforming boys in practically every subject including STEM subjects.
Care to explain how PC and wokeness has had a gender effect assuming their effects are even real?

Let’s go to the opposite end of the education spectrum of students doing their PhDs and hopefully become scientists.
Even if PC and wokeness played a role locally, you don’t seem to realize universities are global education hubs where a large percentage of PhD students are foreigners not encumbered by such restrictions.
In Australia the percentage of foreign students doing their PhD in sciences is around 42%.

Here is a breakdown in the US of doctorates awarded.

fig6a.png

Hence the science is safe from PC and wokeness in the hands of foreign students.;)
Junk science is junk science. Its not necessarily fraudulent. It can also be poor science such as pseudo science when it comes to scientific rigor. Nevertheless much of why peer review articles are rejected is through misrepresentation. For example many papers have been found to contain deliberate misleading or misrepresented information. There have been the well documented examples of researchers purposely presenting false and pseudo science which was then published as valid.

Nevertheless my point was there was a high % of peer review that is not science regardless of why.

Inappropriate authorship and other fraudulent publication strategies are pervasive.

Nearly a decade ago, headlines highlighted a disturbing trend in science: The number of articles retracted by journals had increased 10-fold during the previous 10 years. Fraud accounted for some 60% of those retractions.
I asked you to show me evidence of junk science getting through peer review in reputable journals such as Nature and Science.
Here you are engaging in blatant quote mining because reputable journals filter out junk science before it is even published while predatory journals by definition publish junk science and pseudoscience and have no validity in mainstream science.
For someone who claims they are not anti-science you seem to be going out of your to discredit science through Gish gallops and quote mining.
 
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ralliann

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Scientists are 100% guilty of ridiculing people who question them.
They do this to the point of receiving threats from people they have ridiculed.

Scientists are also guilty of stretching past facts they know into ideas they believe that no questioner has the tools to question. For example, science presenters love to speak for hours on the age and size of the universe where no average person is capable of discovering the facts or refuting the fact themselves. Also one must consider the practical applications of these theories for the common man.

To illustrate: Why are we explaining the gravity of space dust to a puppet?
Why is the puppet supposed to be interested?

Scientist: Well, just because?
And they pick and choose between scientists, as well. Dr's were censored over covid by big tech (the government pushed that behind the scenes) using other outlets to do what they themselves could not do.
 
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Hans Blaster

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And they pick and choose between scientists, as well. Dr's were censored over covid by big tech (the government pushed that behind the scenes) using other outlets to do what they themselves could not do.

The goal of this thread was NOT to express your anti-intellectual thoughts about science.
 
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ralliann

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The goal of this thread was NOT to express your anti-intellectual thoughts about science.
It was not anti intellectual thoughts. Commenting against elitism, masquerading as intellectualism a better description.
 
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Diamond72

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You won't say that after I finish my QCD-Dark Energy Interaction warp drive.
Why build something new when we already have wormholes? With quantum "entangled" we are already there because there is no time at the speed of light. That is why we could travel to the center of the Universe and back again because there is no time involved. We can see the beginning, but we cannot go back to the beginning. The laws of physics only go forward in time, and they do not allow for time travel to the past.
 
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Ophiolite

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It was not anti intellectual thoughts. Commenting against elitism, masquerading as intellectualism a better description.
Feel free to provide sound evidence in support of your assertion. I doubt it, but I don't deny it, therefore you have an opportunity to gain a convert to your viewpoint. All I require is the evidence.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Why build something new when we already have wormholes?
No we don't.

"wormholes" are a theoretical fantasy popular in fiction. There is no evidence for them.
With quantum "entangled" we are already there because there is no time at the speed of light. That is why we could travel to the center of the Universe and back again because there is no time involved. We can see the beginning, but we cannot go back to the beginning. The laws of physics only go forward in time, and they do not allow for time travel to the past.
Your nightmares aren't evidence.
 
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sjastro

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Why build something new when we already have wormholes?
Einstein's field equations for general relativity produces mathematical type universes which have no physical reality and physical universes which do.
Same applies to things at local scales blacks holes are a physical solution to the field equations, wormholes are a mathematical solution.
As far as we know wormholes do not exist.

Sabine Hossenfelder well known physics and maths basher has something to say on the subject.

 
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stevevw

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Here is an example from your latest post.
“Part of the problem I think is that there are many so called scientific facts claimed that have no clear basis so are open to interpretation especially in social sciences:
You left out the sentence before that quote of mine which puts what I said in context i.e.

#407 I have made it clear I am not anti science. A simple search on CF will show this is the case. I am merely pointing out how postmodernist view science.“Part of the problem I think is that there are many so called scientific facts claimed that have no clear basis so are open to interpretation especially in social sciences:

I also made my position clear several times ie
#381 This is part of post modernism where all the grand narratives including scientific fact is being undermined
#389 I am not disputing scientific facts.
#395 You missed the point. I am not disputing scientific facts.
Its not so much the obvious facts which we can observe in front of our eyes and measure.

I was distinguishing between the obvious facts like the diameter of an object or the length of a standard school ruler lol which we can tangibly measured and other claimed facts like biological sex, gender and human caused climate change or certain claimed facts about evolution which are more ambiguous ande edisputed.
Let me reiterate a scientific fact is not open to interpretation because it is a fact based on empirical evidence such as the diameter of the Earth being 12,742 km.
Yes as I said I am not disputing those hard facts. Tell me is it a fact that biological sex is binary being only male and female. Are there only 2 genders. What about human caused climate change, to what extent exactly is human made climate change a fact. What about evolution by natural selection and genetic mutation. Is that a fact for all human change and behaviour.
What I find confusing about your posts is the ambiguity of what you are trying to criticize; is it about post-modernism or science?
If it is about science you clearly do have an anti-intellectual view of science.
Though I sometimes speak in 3rd person I think I made myself clear.
#381 This is part of post modernism where all the grand narratives including scientific fact is being undermined.

But are you saying that people cannot question scientific facts without being labelled an anti-intellectual. I thought part of science was to question the facts.
Not only did you ignore my question of how the lowering of the entrance requirements for students will automatically produce dumbed down postgraduates with seven unrelated links which puts it in the territory of a Gish Gallop,
Thats because your creating a strawman. My original point was that PC has contributed to declining levels in western education regardless of whether it was happening on qualifying for Universities or standards in general dropping which I think I have clearly supported.
but also equating the drop in education standards with PC and wokeness is flat out wrong.
Flat out wrong seems a strong claim. Is that a fact. The articles I linked support that PC, woke and cancel culture ideology has caused a drop in education standards. It stands to reason. Many unies are compromising entrance standards to accommodate minorities who would not normally qualify to be PC (affirmative action).

Because postmodernist PC ideology hates the West its natural that core curriculum on the west is being cancelled and substituted by PC subjects including in subjects that have little to do with race and gender. If you take away the fundemental knowledge of the Western canon thinking such as Enlightenment then you are taking away freedom of thought, critical and rational thinking. That to me is anti-intellectual.

Cancel culture in schools is also reflected in what is not on the curriculum. It can be seen in what is not seen, the topics and issues not discussed, the books that are not on the reading lists, especially the intellectually enriching classics from the canon of great Western literature that are omitted in favour of contemporary texts (published since the 1960s) that promote political correctness.

The Australian Curriculum severely limits the study of what would broadly constitute Western civilisation. This ideological bias in the Australian Curriculum severely limits the scope of inquiry, debate and discussion.
This can restrict the topics for consideration and the possibilities for analytical thinking or reasoning, as well as preclude any opportunity to encourage the valuable scholarly discipline of attempting to achieve the highest degree of objectivity possible when conducting research and analysis.
Cancel Culture in Schools – Quadrant Online

The decline in educational standards in schools in Australia and the US has been known for decades far longer than PC and wokeness even became part of the narrative.
Actually PC was around or beginning to brew in the 1980's. Its the result of the cultural revolutions of the 60's. Philosopher Allan Bloom predeicted woke ideology in the 80's and he has been proven right since.

The closing-of-the-mind thesis was first articulated by the mercurial American scholar, Allan Bloom, back in the 1980s. Bloom’s achievement was to document the emerging campus culture that we now call ‘Wokeism’.

It appears there has been a big decline in education standards after the year 2000 and getting worse arouned 2012 onwards. This happens to line up with the spread of PC, woke ande cancel culture that has been happening in recent years. I am not saying its the only factor but there seems to be a correlation.

We have observed continuing falls in our results since PISA began in 2000 and yet again the data tell us we have failed to lift our performance,”
PISA 2018: Australian student performance in long-term decline

Although there has been much media attention on falling international ranks, it is actually this decline in real scores that should hit the headlines. That’s because it means that students in 2000 answered substantially more questions correctly than students in 2012. The decline is equivalent to more than half a year of schooling.

In NSW, the requirement for Higher School Certificate (HSC) maths or science study was removed in 2001. The national curriculum also makes no requirement for maths or science study after Year 10. Australia is just about the only developed nation that does not make it compulsory to study maths in order to graduate from high school.

In Australia between 1983 and 2003, the standard intake was from the top 26% to 39%. By 2012/2013, less than half of Year 12 students receiving offers for places in undergraduate teacher education courses had ATAR scores in the top 50% of their age cohort. Teacher education degrees also had the highest percentage of students entering with low ATAR scores, and the proportion of teacher education entrants with an ATAR of less than 50 nearly doubled over the past three years. We cannot expect above-average education with below-average teachers.
Six ways Australia's education system is failing our kids

The reasons given are declining education resources resulting in overcrowded schools, a decline in the quality of teachers, a failure to adopt a back to basics approach in teaching etc.

I would say the last one "failure to adopt a back to basics approach in teaching" is most relevant today considering we are getting rid of core curriculum and replacing this with PC subjects. This is evidenced in the poor levels of basic education in the 3 R's and general knowledge including history and literature but also the lack of critical ande free thinking in unies.

Resources has always been a claim for poor results yet developing nations are outdoing western nations with half the resources. Australian schools and I would imagine other western nations like the US and England as we usually follow suit have had record levels of funding such as with Gonski funding yet the results are still declining.

Despite record levels of funding flowing to Australia’s schools, education results have suffered a 20-year decline on international benchmarks.
Also in the same time frame has seen girls reach the stage of outperforming boys in practically every subject including STEM subjects.
Care to explain how PC and wokeness has had a gender effect assuming their effects are even real?
Education has become more politicised with Leftist ideology and feminised. Feminism fits well with PC and Woke ideology. Girls once were behind and we installeed more girl friendly education. But at the same time these approaches were conflicting with young males. The new learning approaches of open classrooms, non competition, remaining still and quiet, share and care and self paced learning don't suit boys.

Boys are more hands on, active and competitive. Their roudyness is seen a misbehaving in todays environment. There is also a lack of male role models as the majority of teachers are females. As a result they lose interest get into trouble and drop out. This has been going on for some time but no one is deoing anything because they don't want to upset the apple cart. This is not the only factor as upbringing plays a part. But a similar enviornment seems to be permeating in a postmodern society that derides males.

Our findings demonstrate that adolescent girls consistently score higher than boys on personality traits that are found to facilitate academic achievement, at least within the current school climate. Stated differently, the current school environment or climate might be in general more attuned to feminine-typed personalities, which make it —in general— easier for girls to achieve better grades at school.
The Emergence of Sex Differences in Personality Traits in Early Adolescence: A Cross-Sectional, Cross-Cultural Study

Feminised curriculum 'has thrown boy out with bathwater'

About 76 percent of public school teachers were female and 24 percent were male in 2017–18
Let’s go to the opposite end of the education spectrum of students doing their PhDs and hopefully become scientists.
Even if PC and wokeness played a role locally, you don’t seem to realize universities are global education hubs where a large percentage of PhD students are foreigners not encumbered by such restrictions.
In Australia the percentage of foreign students doing their PhD in sciences is around 42%.

Here is a breakdown in the US of doctorates awarded.
That wouled seem to point to even worse results for locals then. After factoring out forigners the picture will be even worse for declining western edeucation standareds. I think forigners seem to have higher levels of learning ande deisciplien and don't but into local politics. Put it this way, you deon't see woke and PC in Asian education. Quite the opposite.
I asked you to show me evidence of junk science getting through peer review in reputable journals such as Nature and Science.

Here you are engaging in blatant quote mining because reputable journals filter out junk science before it is even published while predatory journals by definition publish junk science and pseudoscience and have no validity in mainstream science.
For someone who claims they are not anti-science you seem to be going out of your to discredit science through Gish gallops and quote mining.

The second article is from Science.org. Science.org and its publisher the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) is a reputable journal considering its is one of the oldest and most cited journals in the world.

Nearly a decade ago, headlines highlighted a disturbing trend in science: The number of articles retracted by journals had increased 10-fold during the previous 10 years. Fraud accounted for some 60% of those retractions.
Still, the surge in retractions led many observers to call on publishers, editors, and other gatekeepers to make greater efforts to stamp out bad science.

About half of all retractions do appear to have involved fabrication, falsification, or plagiarism—behaviors that fall within the U.S. government's definition of scientific misconduct.
Science | AAAS

Call it junk science or bad science its still not science.
 
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Diamond72

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As far as we know wormholes do not exist.
I have seen a wormhole, so for me, they exist. There were two angels and they told me it was not my time and I had to go back. I think they are a lot like optical fiber.

Jodi Foster did a movie about them. Contact. Of course in the movie they ignore that time on earth would change, but in the wormhole time for you would not change.
 
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Diamond72

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Let me reiterate a scientific fact is not open to interpretation because it is a fact based on empirical evidence such as the diameter of the Earth being 12,742 km.
The transition from Newton's laws to Einstein's theory of relativity involved the accumulation of new evidence, the development of new mathematical tools, and the refinement of theories over time. It is an example of how scientific understanding evolves as new evidence and insights emerge.
 
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Diamond72

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Your nightmares aren't evidence.
The nightmare was when I was falling in a bottomless pit. Later on I read about a bottomless pit in the Bible. I have now learned that this is a volcano. The one I was in was not active.

Revelation 9:2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss.

Having a dream about Heaven or a dream about going to the center of the universe, I would not consider to be a nightmare. Christians do not have nightmares anyways because we put all of that under the Blood of Jesus.
 
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Hans Blaster

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The nightmare was when I was falling in a bottomless pit. Later on I read about a bottomless pit in the Bible. I have now learned that this is a volcano. The one I was in was not active.

Revelation 9:2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss.

Having a dream about Heaven or a dream about going to the center of the universe, I would not consider to be a nightmare. Christians do not have nightmares anyways because we put all of that under the Blood of Jesus.

And again, your dreams aren't evidence of anything but the stuff going on in your head while you sleep.
 
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