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Can people who disagree on abortion stop attacking each other?

NxNW

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The mother granted them permission when she had sex with a man.
Impossible. Conception hasn't even occured yet. You can't grant permission to "someone" who does not yet exist.

If all you eat are MacDonald's you are giving permission to have high cholesterol. if you smoke like a chimney you are giving it permission to develop lung cancer and if you lie down with some random guy you are giving him permission to 'attache himself to you' and add sperm to your body. Don't want to get pregnant? Don't have sex.
Pregnancy = punishment isn't the persuasive argument you think it is.
Then of course you will cry about rape, which we all know is less then 1% of abortions.
Would you ban abortion under these circumstances as well?
Does this mean you are against the other 99% of abortions and would be happy with just rape catered for?

Why would anyone be happy catering to rape?

You are all for abortion for any and all reasons including casual sex which as we know makes up the vast, VAST majority of abortions.
Once again, you presume to know my thoughts.

Casual sex = consent to pregnancy.
As I've explained above, it's clearly not, since you can't give consent to an embryo that does not yet exist.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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Both cases are simply denying the use of someone else's body.
Are you denying that abortion is actively killing a living organism?

You're saying zero effort should be made to reduce the number of them?
No, I am saying that a miscarriage is not immoral, while actively killing the unborn is immoral.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Read this thread (with the sources I provided) or a book on embryology and you'll see that the consensus among biologists is that the single cell before twinning is a human life. Abortion is killing a human life every single time, no matter whether twinning occurs or not.

Everyone knows 1 ovum + 1 sperm = 1 zygotes. Never 2 zygotes. So you know the life of an identical twin cannot begin at fertilization.
 
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rturner76

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Married women have abortions too.
True, but my instincts tell me that young single women have them more often though I admit I am not familiar with the statistics. Plus I don't know how they can be accurate considering doctor/patient confidentiality. Regardless, your statement is true
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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Everyone knows 1 ovum + 1 sperm = 1 zygotes. Never 2 zygotes. So you know the life of an identical twin cannot begin at fertilization.
I'm sure you are able to comprehend a simple sentence:
A zygote is a human life.

That's the biological consensus, there is no way around that.

Now, do you agree that killing an innocent human life is wrong?
 
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GodLovesCats

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I'm sure you are able to comprehend a simple sentence:
A zygote is a human life.

That's the biological consensus, there is no way around that.

There, you said it: a zygote is ONE human life. Not two. So now you have admitted identical twins do not start their lives at conception.

Now, do you agree that killing an innocent human life is wrong?

What is the difference between a human zygote being innocent and a bovine zygote being innocent? Many people eat beef and steak without thinking about the fact all cattle started as innocent zygotes. If it is not OK to kill an innocent human zygote, we should never kill any innocent life. Do you want people to starve to death and only drink water because all species except humans are innocent?

You really need to think about the "innocent" part. God created, is creating, and will create all living organisms that begin as zygotes. So there is no reason to base the idea killing a human zygote is totally unacceptable on the fact that he or she was innocent.

Pick a reason that is completely unique to humans.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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What is the difference between a human zygote being innocent and a bovine zygote being innocent? People eat beef and steak without thinking about the fact all cattle started as innocent zygotes. If it is not OK to kill an innocent human zygote, we should not eat anything that is originally an innocent zygote because all life is created by God.
We eat grown animals. Are you suggesting we can also eat grown humans? Or do you understand that there is a fundamental difference between humans and animals?
When you read Genesis 1 and 2, where do you get the idea from that a human is equal to an animal? You can't even say "that was just before the Fall", because Leviticus 24:17 clearly states: "Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death." This is never said about someone who takes an animal's life.
 
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GodLovesCats

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We eat grown animals. Are you suggesting we can also eat grown humans? Or do you understand that there is a fundamental difference between humans and animals?
When you read Genesis 1 and 2, where do you get the idea from that a human is equal to an animal? You can't even say "that was just before the Fall", because Leviticus 24:17 clearly states: "Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death." This is never said about someone who takes an animal's life.

I am thinking about Genesis 2:7. Adam was nothing but a human body before God breathed into his nostrils. Until birth, when He gives the human body a soul, there is no difference between a human and any other animal spiritually or in terms of being innocent.

When a fetus becomes a baby, he or she receives a soul and innocence is no longer in the same context. Do you care about this important difference?
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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I am thinking about Genesis 2:7. Adam was nothing but a human body before God breathed into his nostrils. Until birth, when He gives the human body a soul, there is no difference between a human and any other animal spiritually or in terms of being innocent.

When a fetus becomes a baby, he or she receives a soul and innocence is no longer in the same context. Do you care about this important difference?
Nowhere does the Bible say that a human has no soul until point of birth. That doesn't even make sense as the baby in the womb learns your language and gets used to your voice long before birth. Using Adam, who never was in a womb, to argue that humans in a womb have no soul, is a fallacy.

Either way, if you really believe that unborn humans have no soul before the point of birth and are just like animals there should be no reason to not kill the unborn child 1 day prior to birth. If you oppose abortion at that point you either don't really believe what you say or you are not consistent in your argumentation.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Nowhere does the Bible say that a human has no soul until point of birth. That doesn't even make sense as the baby in the womb learns your language and gets used to your voice long before birth. Using Adam, who never was in a womb, to argue that humans in a womb have no soul, is a fallacy.

Either way, if you really believe that unborn humans have no soul before the point of birth and are just like animals there should be no reason to not kill the unborn child 1 day prior to birth. If you oppose abortion at that point you either don't really believe what you say or you are not consistent in your argumentation.

Several other verses in the Bible refer to God giving "the breath of life" to people. Since they were obviously alive the womb and God's name precedes that phrase, it can only mean He does not give anyone a soul prior to birth.

I oppose all unnecessary abortions, but totally understand most abortions are necessary because of our messed-up government and society.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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Several other verses in the Bible refer to God giving "the breath of life" to people.
The only one that comes to my mind is Isaiah 42:5, but that one doesn't support your argument. Unless you want to say that infants (who can't yet walk) are not alive. Which "several other" verses are you talking about?

I oppose all unnecessary abortions, but totally understand most abortions are necessary because of our messed-up government and society.
Let me ask directly then: Do you believe it is evil to kill the unborn baby 1 day prior to birth?
 
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GodLovesCats

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Let me ask directly then: Do you believe it is evil to kill the unborn baby 1 day prior to birth?

No because if the unborn baby is aborted, it is never born.

Of course, no woman would want to have an abortion the day before her due date. I will never understand why any abortion opponent thinks such abortions happen just because mothers did not want their babies.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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No, because if the unborn baby is aborted, it is never born.
Well, that's a clear answer :) You probably know that unborn children in the womb can hear your voice, learn your language and move to music, and even Luke 1 confirms that a fetus can feel joy. Yet your position is based entirely on the questionable opinion that the soul doesn't exist until birth (which you haven't provided verses for), and that God only deems a human life valuable if it has a soul (which you haven't provided verses for either).
 
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GodLovesCats

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Well, that's a clear answer. You probably know that unborn children in the womb can hear your voice, learn your language and move to music, and even Luke 1 confirms that a fetus can feel joy. Yet your position is based entirely on the questionable opinion that the soul doesn't exist until birth (which you haven't provided verses for), and that God only deems a human life valuable if it has a soul (which you haven't provided verses for either).

Why did you only copy the first word of my post? That is called removing the context to make it mean something totally different. I will not respond to any more of your posts until you fix that.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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Why did you only copy the first word of my post? That is called removing the context to make it mean something totally different. I will not respond to any more of your posts until you fix that.
A "no" is a "no". The rest of your sentence was as brilliant as saying "a sheep whose head is chopped off is dead". I do think it is quite astonishing though that you were not able to answer "no" to the question whether it is wrong to kill an innocent human, but were able to say "no" to the question whether you believe it to be evil to kill a 9-months old fetus.
The polar opposite of what anyone I deem a decent person would say.
 
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GodLovesCats

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A "no" is a "no". The rest of your sentence was as brilliant as saying "a sheep whose head is chopped off is dead." I do think it is quite astonishing though that you were not able to answer "no" to the question whether it is wrong to kill an innocent human, but were able to say "no" to the question whether you believe it to be evil to kill a 9-months old fetus.
The polar opposite of what anyone I deem a decent person would say.

The sentence you chopped off is obviously the only reason I started with "no." Every mentally functioning adult who speaks and writes English knows perfectly well it is literally impossible to have an abortion one day before an event that obviously cannot happen because of the abortion. I will never understand why anybody thinks an aborted fetus is born later. Only the context that you completely removed from my post matters.

People who don't know what the words "before" and "birth" mean definitely are not brilliant.I have known those two words most of my life.
 
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Friedrich Rubinstein

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The sentence you chopped off is obviously the only reason I started with "no." Every mentally functioning adult who speaks and writes English knows perfectly well it is literally impossible to have an abortion one day before an event that obviously cannot happen because of the abortion. I will never understand why anybody thinks an aborted fetus is born later.
"1 day prior to birth" means "1 day before the scheduled date of delivery". I have never met anyone before who didn't understand that. I apologize for the unclear language then. Does that change your answer?
 
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GodLovesCats

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"One day prior to birth" means "one day before the scheduled date of delivery." I have never met anyone before who didn't understand that. I apologize for the unclear language then. Does that change your answer?

That is only what the anti-choicers say because they want to do whatever it takes to criticize pro-choicers as radical baby killers. They all know while saying it the woman's due date is not the same thing as a ""scheduled delivery" and care less about using proper English than lying about everyone who supported Roe vs. Wade.

FYI a "scheduled delivery" is a doctor appointment to have either a C-section or induced labor. An expecting mother's due date is 40 weeks after the first day of her last period, not nine months after fertilization. So I suspect that date is often not accurate.
 
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