How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

[Blaise N]

I found the same thing in Scripture. I suspect every believer has. That is why we can discuss the things where we differ as brothers.

Studying the early Church has its benefits - not seeing what to believe but realizing other Christians have believed differently without compromising the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I didn't study the early church until seminary (it was required then, but I also found it fascinating). Even if we were to dismiss earlier Christian doctrine, that doctrine at a minimum demonstrates that Calvinism was not the only way to understand Scripture. In fact, it arrived fairly late in Christian history (granted - a fact that does not make it wrong).

So at a minimum we should ask why the church for so long did not read Scripture as a Calvinist reads Scripture. Why did they come to so different a conclusion regarding the Atonement?

Why did it take almost a millennia and a half for Calvinism to develop since today it appears to those who never even studied Christian history to be the natural reading?

Maybe it was because the early church was focused on its own persecutions. Maybe they relied too much on the Apostles teaching passed down to another teacher.

But maybe it is because it is impossible to read Scripture and believe Calvinism without being from a culture that benefitted so much from the Renaissance Humanism movement.

Maybe it is Aqunas' contributions that was held by the RCC and that Calvinism took as a foundation (and reformed to be based on justice rather than merit) that colors our thinking.

Hey John.


I just was scrolling through and I’d thought I’d ask.Do you think eternal security is biblical?,Likr I said many pages ago earlier I agree with Calvin’s points but am not a Calvinist.I’m not interrogating you and im not trying to text you at all.I think eternal security is biblical,so you think as well?

 

[John Mullally]

If Calvinists preachers were more forthcoming on their doctrine, there would be fewer Calvinists. Who is interested in a God that predestines most to hell before they are born? I view that as satanic.

That is a caricature of the teaching.
Go on www. sermonaudio.com.
There are over 2 million sermoms for free.
Listen to any sermon, by Al Martin, W.R. Downing, Geoff Thomas, Steve Lawson, James White, Sinclair Ferguson,John Macarthur,Greg Nichols,Voddie Bauchum...find one that says anything like you suggest.
You will not find any, so why post such a thing

There is no need to scour 2 million sermons when Calvin states it plainly. See also post 369 in this tread.

“Now, since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

The quote is not teaching what you claim it is.

So go ahead and start listening to the sermons.I will select several for you so you do not have to listen to the 2.2 million,

CHAPTER 23.

REFUTATION OF THE CALUMNIES BY WHICH THIS DOCTRINE IS ALWAYS UNJUSTLY ASSAILED.

This chapter consists of four parts, which refute the principal objections to this doctrine, and the various pleas and exceptions founded on these objections. These are preceded by a refutation of those who hold election but deny reprobation, sec. 1. Then follows, I. A refutation of the first objection to the doctrine of reprobation and election, sec. 2-5. II. An answer to the second objection, sec. 6-9. III. A refutation of the third objection. IV. A refutation of the fourth objection; to which is added a useful and necessary caution, sec. 12-14.

Sections.

1. Error of those who deny reprobation. 1. Election opposed to reprobation. 2. Those who deny reprobation presumptuously plead with God, whose counsels even angels adore. 3. They murmur against God when disclosing his counsels by the Apostle. Exception and answer. Passage of Augustine.

2. First objection—viz. that God is unjustly offended with those whom he dooms to destruction without their own desert. First answer, from the consideration of the divine will. The nature of this will, and how to be considered.

3. Second answer. God owes nothing to man. His hatred against those who are corrupted by sin is most just. The reprobate convinced in their own consciences of the just judgment of God.

4. Exception—viz. that the reprobate seem to have been preordained to sin. Answer. Passage of the Apostle vindicated from calumny.

5. Answer, confirmed by the authority of Augustine. Illustration. Passage of Augustine.

6. Objection, that God ought not to impute the sins rendered necessary by his predestination. First answer, by ancient writers. This not valid. Second answer also defective. Third answer, proposed by Valla, well founded.

7. Objection, that God did not decree that Adam should perish by his fall, refuted by a variety of reasons. A noble passage of Augustine.

8. Objection, that the wicked perish by the permission, not by the will of God. Answer. A pious exhortation.

9. Objection and answer.

10. Objection, that, according to the doctrine of predestination, God is a respecter of persons. Answer.

11. Objection, that sinners are to be punished equally, or the justice of God is unequal. Answer. Confirmed by passages of Augustine.

12. Objection, that the doctrine of predestination produces overweening confidence and impiety. Different answers.

13. Another objection, depending on the former. Answer. The doctrine of predestination to be preached, not passed over in silence.

14. How it is to be preached and delivered to the people. Summary of the orthodox doctrine of predestination, from Augustine.

John

Since you are fond of Calvin....I see your Calvin and raise the stakes,lol

1. The human mind, when it hears this doctrine, cannot restrain its petulance, but boils and rages as if aroused by the sound of a trumpet. Many professing a desire to defend the Deity from an invidious charge admit the doctrine of election, but deny that any one 2226is reprobated (Bernard. in Die Ascensionis, Serm. 2). This they do ignorantly and childishly since there could be no election without its opposite reprobation. God is said to set apart those whom he adopts for salvation. It were most absurd to say, that he admits others fortuitously, or that they by their industry acquire what election alone confers on a few.

Those, therefore, whom God passes by he reprobates, and that for no other cause but because he is pleased to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines to his children.

Nor is it possible to tolerate the petulance of men, in refusing to be restrained by the word of God, in regard to his incomprehensible counsel, which even angels adore. We have already been told that hardening is not less under the immediate hand of God than mercy. Paul does not, after the example of those whom I have mentioned, labour anxiously to defend God, by calling in the aid of falsehood; he only reminds us that it is unlawful for the creature to quarrel with its Creator. Then how will those who refuse to admit that any are reprobated by God explain the following words of Christ? “Every plant which my heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up,” (Mt. 15:13). They are plainly told that all whom the heavenly Father has not been pleased to plant as sacred trees in his garden, are doomed and devoted to destruction. If they deny that this is a sign of reprobation, there is nothing, however clear, that, can be proved to them. But if they will still murmur, let us in the soberness of faith rest contented with the admonition of Paul, that it can be no ground of complaint that God, “willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” (Rom. 9:22, 23).


Let my readers observe that Paul, to cut off all handle for murmuring and detraction, attributes supreme sovereignty to the wrath and power of God; for it were unjust that those profound judgments, which transcend all our powers of discernment, should be subjected to our calculation. It is frivolous in our opponents to reply, that God does not altogether reject those whom in levity he tolerates, but remains in suspense with regard to them, if per adventure they may repent; as if Paul were representing God as patiently waiting for the conversion of those whom he describes as fitted for destruction. For Augustine, rightly expounding this passage, says that where power is united to endurance, God does not permit, but rules (August. Cont. Julian., Lib. 5, c. 5). They add also, that it is not without cause the vessels of wrath are said to be fitted for destruction, and that God is said to have prepared the vessels of mercy, because in this way the praise of salvation is claimed for God, whereas the blame of perdition is thrown upon those who of their own accord bring it upon themselves. But were I to concede that by the different forms of expression Paul softens the harshness of the former clause, it by no means follows, that he transfers the preparation for destruction to any other cause than the 2227secret counsel of God. This, indeed, is asserted in the preceding context, where God is said to have raised up Pharaoh, and to harden whom he will. Hence it follows, that the hidden counsel of God is the cause of hardening. I at least hold with Augustine that when God makes sheep out of wolves, he forms them again by the powerful influence of grace, that their hardness may thus be subdued, and that he does not convert the obstinate, because he does not exert that more powerful grace, a grace which he has at command, if he were disposed to use it (August. de Prædest. Sanct., Lib. 1, c. 2).

You tell me Calvin does not predestine many to hell before they are born, per an earlier quote from Calvin, and then in this last post make the argument from Calvin's and Augistine's writings as to why God is justified in doing so. We agree that it is not taught much in Reformed churches as it is dreadful.

“Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7)​

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

You tell me Calvin does not predestine many to hell before they are born, per an earlier quote from Calvin, and then in this last post make the argument from Calvin's and Augistine's writings as to why God is justified in doing so. You are probably correct that this is not taught much in Reformed churches as it is dreadful.

“Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7)​

John, i cannot read the quote for you.
In post 699 the first bolded passage in red....speaks of those passes by.
Do you deny the bible speaks of reprobation?
If Calvin read it and commented upon it, does that mean there is no teaching on it.
To clarify....what do you think happens to all who are cast into second death?

 

[John Caldwell]

Hey John.


I just was scrolling through and I’d thought I’d ask.Do you think eternal security is biblical?,Likr I said many pages ago earlier I agree with Calvin’s points but am not a Calvinist.I’m not interrogating you and im not trying to text you at all.I think eternal security is biblical,so you think as well?

Yes. When it comes to the "five points" I typically agree with the conclusions. I disagree with how Calvinists get there.

 

[John Caldwell]

Well, no. I was a believer, and studied the Scriptures for around 40 years, before finding some of these things, and even after 66 years, and am still discovering them. All believers may think they believe in the sovereignty of God, but they still subject his plan to mere chance. They may see John 1 saying he made everything, but apparently they must add, if they reason about it at all, "'everything that has been made', that is, which does not mean everything" so therefore we can say that such principles as 'chance' and 'randomness' and 'true chaos' and 'reality' etc are not made by him, since they are just 'the way things are'. But mostly, they just don't see a problem between their worldview and God's sovereignty. The same applies for a LOT of the things I found out. I could go on for days.



My problem with your whole approach here is that you seem to assume that the writings of the "early church" reflect the truth of the Bible, and not their use of it. It doesn't take long for Christendom to migrate from what they once focused on. One of my early observations (I'm an MK (missionary kid)) upon returning to the field after a year's deputation in "the States" where I had noticed "new teachings" being taught in the churches, was that in about 4 years, the mission field churches had fully adopted those new teachings, and the cycle continued indefinitely.

Two, or even ten writers from the year after the last book of the Bible had been written do not represent that early church. Even DURING the writings, perversions had begun. Meanwhile, the truth continued, quietly or loudly is irrelevant. I have noticed some of the less taught, but respected, but persecuted believers, seem to have a better grasp on the sovereignty of God, and predestination and providence, than the majority of those claiming to believe. Their belief is not theoretical. They may not even have considered some of the questions, because they already assume the truth that God does whatever he wants, and he is to be praised and depended on for it.

No, Mark, I do not assume the beliefs of the Early Church correct. You missed my point.

My point is that as a Calvinist I viewed Calvinism as a fairly plain reading of Scripture. What was difficult was the fact that Calvinists did not exist until the 16th Century. Calvinism is a relative new philosophy.

That does not make it wrong (assuming would be a fallacy). But it raises the question of why we can read Scripture and see Calvinism when they could not.

Now you are talking about divine sovereignty. That is shifting the subject and avoiding the issue. God is sovereign. It is not about the "five points" but about the Calvinistic view of the Atonement (which is shared by Arminianism).

I agree with Calvinists that God is sovereign, the depravity of men, He chose us, predestination, perseverance of the saints, Christ died for His sheep...those the Father gives Him.....etc.

 

[John Mullally]

John, i cannot read the quote for you.
In post 699 the first bolded passage in red....speaks of those passes by.
Do you deny the bible speaks of reprobation?
If Calvin read it and commented upon it, does that mean there is no teaching on it.
To clarify....what do you think happens to all who are cast into second death?

I don't think God works in cross purpose to what he desires. God desires that all should turn from their sin and live. It is satan, not Christ, who works to kill, steal, and destroy. I am sure you heard all the following before.

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.​

2 Corinthians 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
​

I don't agree with the Calvinist premise that everything that occurs is necessarily Gods will (i.e. what He decreed).

1. Jesus would not command his followers to pray something that is not the Will of God.
2. So when Jesus commanded his followers to pray "Your will be done on earth as it is heaven", he was also saying that God's Will on earth equates with what is being done in heaven.
3. Notice that "be done" is in the present tense.
4. There is no sin, sickness, poverty, or rebellion in heaven.
5. So based upon "God's will is always done" and Matthew 6:10 there should be no sin, sickness, poverty and rebellion on earth at this time.

I don't believe God decrees anyone commit sin:

Jreremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’​

 

[John Caldwell]

There is no question here regarding the meaning of "an eye for an eye" in Scripture.

The question here lies in your "literal" notion of Scripture as being "two-dimensional," separating it contextually from the rest of Scripture--its necessary "third dimension," thereby diminishing its fullness.
You won't correctly apprehend much of the NT using that contra-Biblical hermeneutic.

A ransom pays the price for redemption from a situation.

Jesus "died as a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:28),
he paid the price to buy them back, to redeem them from a "third dimension" of this reality; i.e.,
their condemnation (Romans 5:18) to the wrath of God (Romans 5:9) for eternity
as the penalty for their sin and rejection of him.

And that is penal substitutionary atonement, testified to throughout the Scriptures.

The true "theological mess" lies in personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8) as the source of one's theology.

Prophetic riddles are subject to more than one interpretation, the only rule being such interpretation must be in agreement with NT apostolic teaching in order not to be incorrect.
Most of the personal interpretation of prophetic riddles, which is the source of much theology being propounded today, is not in agreement with NT apostolic teaching.

The two-dimensional artificial construct of your hermeneutic smacks of (tastes like) a device to separate NT teaching from its roots in the OT, as the remedy for one's personal interpretation of prophetic riddles being in disagreement with NT apostolic teaching.

And that is where the "theological mess" lies, in interpreting prophetic riddles in a manner contrary to NT apostolic teaching.

You are just stating, in another way, what I already said. It is impossible for a Calvinist to be a biblicist. It is impossible for a Calvinist to take a literal approach to Scriptute. Calvinists will always view those who rely on what is written in the text of Scripture as two dimensional.

You and I at least agree here.

And I understand that without Calvinistic philosophy you view Scripture as riddles. But that is what you see because of the philosophy you insist must be applied to God's Word.

We're you able, or willing, to simply read God's Word as two-dimensional (without the need of that third dimension of human philosophy) you would find that Scripture is not the riddle you believe it to be but God's revelation to man, perfect and complete.

But I know you cannot. And that is fine. Just be the best Calvinist you can be. You may never be able to wade more than ankle deep in God's Word but you are at least in the water.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I don't think God works in cross purpose to what he desires. God desires that all should turn from their sin and live. It is satan, not Christ, who works to kill, steal, and destroy. I am sure you heard all the following before.

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.​

2 Corinthians 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
​

I don't agree with the Calvinist premise that everything that occurs is necessarily Gods will (i.e. what He decreed).

1. Jesus would not command his followers to pray something that is not the Will of God.
2. So when Jesus commanded his followers to pray "Your will be done on earth as it is heaven", he was also saying that God's Will on earth equates with what is being done in heaven.
3. Notice that "be done" is in the present tense.
4. There is no sin, sickness, poverty, or rebellion in heaven.
5. So based upon "God's will is always done" and Matthew 6:10 there should be no sin, sickness, poverty and rebellion on earth at this time.

I don't believe God decrees anyone commit sin:

Jreremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’​

Hello John,
Thanks for your response.I am enjoying our interaction.
After I have dinner I look forward to working through you good questions.
I will always attempt to offer a Biblical response from a confessional point of view.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

"John Mullally,

[You tell me Calvin does not predestine many to hell before they are born, per an earlier quote from Calvin,]

John, Calvin was one person, one man.
He lived his life before God in his time. He has left this life and God is his Savior, or judge .
Historically his writings have helped many people.
Do you think You could write on all the topics he did, without google, computers, etc?
The quote did not say that. It spoke of preterition,as my second quote indicated.

[and then in this last post make the argument from Calvin's and Augistine's writings as to why God is justified in doing so.]

God is always just in all He does.

[We agree that it is not taught much in Reformed churches as it is dreadful.

“Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7)]​

That sinners perish is dreadful. Dreadful but just.
John, do you believe God is perfectly Holy and JUST?
Will you be with the saints in Heaven who praise God for His judgments;?
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

 

[Clare73]

You are just stating, in another way, what I already said. It is impossible for a Calvinist to be a biblicist. It is impossible for a Calvinist to take a literal approach to Scriptute. Calvinists will always view those who rely on what is written in the text of Scripture as two dimensional.
You and I at least agree here.

And I understand that without Calvinistic philosophy you view Scripture as riddles.

Misrepresentation. . .

The riddles are in prophecy (Numbers 12:8), not the NT.
The literal interpretation of prophetic riddles is in disagreement with NT apostolic teaching, which is why I suspect Calvinists disagree with that "literal" approach to interpreting prophecy.
I would expect Calvinists always to disagree with such erroneous literal interpretation of prophetic riddles.

And I note you failed to address the substance of the post; i.e., Jesus died as a ransom (posts #686 and #698).

 

[John Mullally]

"[You tell me Calvin does not predestine many to hell before they are born, per an earlier quote from Calvin,]

The following that I quoted in Post 475 demonstates that Calvin views God as predestining some to hell prior to their birth.

“Now, since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

John, Calvin was one person, one man.
He lived his life before God in his time. He has left this life and God is his Savior, or judge .
Historically his writings have helped many people.
Do you think You could write on all the topics he did, without google, computers, etc?
The quote did not say that. It spoke of preterition,as my second quote indicated.

[and then in this last post make the argument from Calvin's and Augistine's writings as to why God is justified in doing so.]

Paul says that we are to examine everthing according to God's word.

2 Corinthians 10:5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,​

In the Bible, Revelation has been progressive. Where possible, I reference the clear doctrine specified in Acts and the Epistles as they are written to New Testament believers after mystery of the Gospel was revealed (Ephesians 3). This is not to say I discount the OT, as it is often needed to understand the NT.

God is always just in all He does.
[We agree that it is not taught much in Reformed churches as it is dreadful.

“Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7)]​

That sinners perish is dreadful. Dreadful but just.
John, do you believe God is perfectly Holy and JUST?
Will you be with the saints in Heaven who praise God for His judgments;?
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

We agree that God is just and sinners perish. We disagree that God predestines some as reprobate before they are born. God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 2:11-16).

I look at the elect as those who act on the promise of Acts 2:38-39.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them​

The call in Acts 2:38-39 is not restricted to a pre-selected group, as God commands all to repent (Acts 17:30). The grace of God is not irrresistable as men commonly resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51).

Ephesians 1 says that the faithful in Christ are blessed with every spiritual blessing and predestined to adoption as sons.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.​

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

John Mullally,

[I don't think God works in cross purpose to what he desires. God desires that all should turn from their sin and live. It is satan, not Christ, who works to kill, steal, and destroy. I am sure you heard all the following before.]

As we start to disagree I would like to question your ideas, as I also offer a reformed view to you.
Would God like it if all men everywhere desired to repent and turn from sin to God.
Sure...that would be wonderful. The problem is men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil.

[Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?]

God declares He does not take pleasure in their death, but He will not hesitate for one second to send them into second death.

[1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time]

If you are suggesting this means all men everywhere, that would include all men who ever lived. Do you want to try and support that position?
I believe it is as written; all men, Kings, and those in authority. Not just Israelites, but gentiles as well.

[2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.]

This passage is speaking of God being longsuffering until all those elected persons who are yet to be born, will indeed be born and effectually drawn to faith. Read the whole chapter it contrasts the elect with the ungodly scoffer
The verse says God is longsuffering to-usward......
NOT WILLING THAT ANY PERISH....NOT ONE ELECT PERSON IS GOING TO BE LOST.

4 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
​

[I don't agree with the Calvinist premise that everything that occurs is necessarily Gods will (i.e. what He decreed). Nothing happens outside.]
If anything happens in time, that means it was ordained to come to pass.
God does not cause sin, but no sin can take place unless it is by God's; decree. God uses even the wicked acts of unbelievers
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

1. [Jesus would not command his followers to pray something that is not the Will of God.]
2. I agree
3. [So when Jesus commanded his followers to pray "Your will be done on earth as it is heaven", he was also saying that God's Will on earth equates with what is being done in heaven.]
4. It means Gods will as revealed in scripture should make up our biblical worldview
5. [Notice that "be done" is in the present tense.
6. There is no sin, sickness, poverty, or rebellion in heaven.
7. So based upon "God's will is always done" and Matthew 6:10 there should be no sin, sickness, poverty and rebellion on earth at this time.]

It is speaking of what God has instructed us, not saying we are in heaven, glorified yet.

[I don't believe God decrees anyone commit sin:]

God does not cause anyone to sin. However that it takes place shows it was ordained to happen.

​

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

"Clare73,

Misrepresentation. . .

The riddles are in prophecy (Numbers 12:8), not the NT.
The literal interpretation of prophetic riddles is in disagreement with NT apostolic teaching, which is why I suspect Calvinists disagree with that "literal" approach to interpreting prophecy.
I would expect Calvinists always to disagree with such erroneous literal interpretation of prophetic riddles.[/QUOTE]
You are on to this error and falsehood.
God has spoken in scripture. Calvinists start and finish with scripture, not philosophy as alleged. The teaching is from scripture, not theory as false teachers would allege.
Biblical words have a biblical meaning. Words like foreknowledge are not explained properly.
The biblical meaning in Romans 8:29-30, is ignored.
The language of the teaching of Penal Substitutionary Atonement , bearing our sins in His own body, being crushed, bruised for our transgressions, etc. Is ignored,
God's wrath has vanished, it does not have to punish sin now.
What nonsense.
They never explain any verse, they just say...the verse explains it, I do not have to? lol.
Do not let them fool you or anyone.

Do not let anyone insult you suggesting you are trying to add philosophy to scripture. To understand the biblical meaning the biblical sense is exactly what bible belevers do.
Looks as if Ezra did not get the "two dimensional memo";
8 And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the Lord had commanded to Israel.

2 And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.

3 And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law.

4 And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam.

5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people and when he opened it, all the people stood up:

6 And Ezra blessed the Lord, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the Lord with their faces to the ground.

7 Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place.

8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

John Mullally,

[The following that I quoted in Post 475 demonstates that Calvin views God as predestining some to hell prior to their birth.

“Now, since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)]


I answered you on this, saying you are not understanding the quote properly.​

[Paul says that we are to examine everthing according to God's word.

2 Corinthians 10:5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,]

I agree, but you have not made your case yet, from scripture.
Calvin read his bible, he offered what he believes he saw there. We are not examing him in this thread, but scripture.​

[In the Bible, Revelation has been progressive. Where possible, I reference the clear doctrine specified in Acts and the Epistles as they are written to New Testament believers after mystery of the Gospel was revealed (Ephesians 3). This is not to say I discount the OT, as it is often needed to understand the NT.

We agree that God is just and sinners perish. We disagree that God predestines some as reprobate before they are born. God is not a respecter of persons (Acts 2:11-16).]

Where does anyone say.....predestined reprobates before they were born? You say that, but no one else says it.

[I look at the elect as those who act on the promise of Acts 2:38-39.]

John, scripture does not teach that; it says this;

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, It does not say, when they act on Acts2 as you suggest.Election took place before we did anything;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

​

[The call in Acts 2:38-39 is not restricted to a pre-selected group,]
Sure it is; look here;

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off,
even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
[as God commands all to repent (Acts 17:30).]

Yes He does

[The grace of God is not irrresistable as men commonly resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51).]

Men often resist the grace of God offered in what is known as the general call.
The effectual call is not ultimately resisted, but 100% effective
[Ephesians 1 says that the faithful in Christ are blessed with every spiritual blessing and predestined to adoption as sons.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved]

John, Eph. 1 :3-14 is one sentence in the greek language , read it together.
​

 

[John Caldwell]

Misrepresentation. . .

The riddles are in prophecy (Numbers 12:8), not the NT.
The literal interpretation of prophetic riddles is in disagreement with NT apostolic teaching, which is why I suspect Calvinists disagree with that "literal" approach to interpreting prophecy.
I would expect Calvinists always to disagree with such erroneous literal interpretation of prophetic riddles.

No. As Jesus said to Nicodemus, " Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?"

The problem you have is your philosophy cannot pass the test of Scripture. You test your belief about what Scripture teaches against what you believe is taught in Scripture rather than "what is written".

In this way, your philosophy is just as subjective as any other Christian philosophy.

But were you to rely on "what is written" (the text of Scripture) then you, as your post indicates, would hold a view other than Calvinism.

Sure you'd hold what you call a two-dimensional position. But you'd be leaning on God's Word rather than your own understanding.

And you would be able to test your understanding against Scripture ("what is written") rather than what you believe is taught.

 

[John Mullally]

As we start to disagree I would like to question your ideas, as I also offer a reformed view to you.
Would God like it if all men everywhere desired to repent and turn from sin to God.
Sure...that would be wonderful. The problem is men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil.

The Holy Spirit who was given to convict the world of Sin, Righteousness. Some respond positively to the drawing of the Holy Spirit and some resist Him (Acts 7:51).

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

God declares He does not take pleasure in their death, but He will not hesitate for one second to send them into second death.

Given that God has no pleasure that the wicked die in their sins, and would have them turn from their ways and live - then I don't see how God would ordain them to reprobation before they draw their first breath. A house divided cannot stand (Matthew 12:22-28).

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

If you are suggesting this means all men everywhere, that would include all men who ever lived. Do you want to try and support that position?
I believe it is as written; all men, Kings, and those in authority. Not just Israelites, but gentiles as well.

Major sticking point with Calvinists: I disagree that everything God desires is accomplished.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

This passage is speaking of God being longsuffering until all those elected persons who are yet to be born, will indeed be born and effectually drawn to faith. Read the whole chapter it contrasts the elect with the ungodly scoffer
The verse says God is longsuffering to-usward......
NOT WILLING THAT ANY PERISH....NOT ONE ELECT PERSON IS GOING TO BE LOST.

4 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Did you notice that God is longsuffering with those destined for wrath in Romans 9:22?

I don't agree with the Calvinist premise that everything that occurs is necessarily Gods will (i.e. what He decreed). Nothing happens outside.

If anything happens in time, that means it was ordained to come to pass.

God does not cause sin, but no sin can take place unless it is by God's; decree. God uses even the wicked acts of unbelievers

I don't believe God decrees all we ever do. As I showed earlier, God never imagined the sin described in Jeremiah 32:35 - so He certainly did not decree that.

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:


24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

We agree on that point.

1. Jesus would not command his followers to pray something that is not the Will of God.
2. I agree
3. So when Jesus commanded his followers to pray "Your will be done on earth as it is heaven", he was also saying that God's Will on earth equates with what is being done in heaven.
4. It means Gods will as revealed in scripture should make up our biblical worldview
5. Notice that "be done" is in the present tense.
6. There is no sin, sickness, poverty, or rebellion in heaven.
7. So based upon "God's will is always done" and Matthew 6:10 there should be no sin, sickness, poverty and rebellion on earth at this time.]

It is speaking of what God has instructed us, not saying we are in heaven, glorified yet.

I disagree with your comment on point 4. There is significance in Jesus saying "your will be done on earth as it is in heaven". We live in a fallen world - it is not so in heaven. The fact that Jesus includes "as it is in heaven" means that God's desire for the goings on in the earth is far superior than what we experience in this fallen world.

[I don't believe God decrees anyone commit sin:]


God does not cause anyone to sin. However that it takes place shows it was ordained to happen.

James 1:13-15 says that God does not tempt anyone to sin. I think its safe to say to say He does not ordain anyone to sin either - as God is not a trickster.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

The Holy Spirit who was given to convict the world of Sin, Righteousness. Some respond positively to the drawing of the Holy Spirit and some resist Him (Acts 7:51).

Given that God has no pleasure that the wicked die in their sins, and would have them turn from their ways and live - then I don't see how God would ordain them to reprobation before they draw their first breath. A house divided cannot stand (Matthew 12:22-28).
Major sticking point with Calvinists: I disagree that everything God desires is accomplished.
Did you notice that God is longsuffering with those destined for wrath in Romans 9:22?
I don't believe God decrees all we ever do. As I showed earlier, God never imagined the sin described in Jeremiah 32:35 - so He certainly did not decree that.

We agree on that point.I disagree with your comment on point 4. There is significance in Jesus saying "your will be done on earth as it is in heaven". We live in a fallen world - it is not so in heaven. The fact that Jesus includes "as it is in heaven" means that God's desire for the goings on in the earth is far superior than what we experience in this fallen world.
James 1:13-15 says that God does not tempt anyone to sin. I think its safe to say to say He does not ordain anyone to sin either - as God is not a trickster.

John ...Jer. is not saying that God was unaware of such sin. It s not possible that Godwas unaware of it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Several now in the days we live, cannot explain the historic confessional teaching.
There are several who claim I used to be a calvinist.
Actual Calvinists know they might think they were, but clearly never knew the actual teaching.
I am not saying they cannot google it, and cut and paste something, but what I am saying is they clearly never grasped the heart of the teaching at all, and still do not.
They avoid answering the key issues.
They claim I used to be a Calvinist, but have no evidence .
mentioning Beza, or Edwards, does not make anyone a Calvinist.

I'm curious why you wrote this.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't believe God decrees all we ever do. As I showed earlier, God never imagined the sin described in Jeremiah 32:35 - so He certainly did not decree that.

John ...Jer. is not saying that God was unaware of such sin. It s not possible that Godwas unaware of it.

Contextually, it looks to me pretty obvious, he is saying it never entered his mind to command that they do that. In the same sentence, earlier, he says he did not command it. So, "I did not command it, nor did it enter my mind that they should do such a thing."

I don't know the Hebrew well enough to say whether "they should do" is about the possibility of them doing it —i.e. "it never entered my mind that it was going to happen"— or the obedience to a command —i.e. "it never entered my mind to command such a thing". Or perhaps something not quite either of those. But it seems to me the second is the most reasonable, given the context, and God's omniscience.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, Mark, I do not assume the beliefs of the Early Church correct. You missed my point.

My point is that as a Calvinist I viewed Calvinism as a fairly plain reading of Scripture. What was difficult was the fact that Calvinists did not exist until the 16th Century. Calvinism is a relative new philosophy.

That does not make it wrong (assuming would be a fallacy). But it raises the question of why we can read Scripture and see Calvinism when they could not.

Now you are talking about divine sovereignty. That is shifting the subject and avoiding the issue. God is sovereign. It is not about the "five points" but about the Calvinistic view of the Atonement (which is shared by Arminianism).

I agree with Calvinists that God is sovereign, the depravity of men, He chose us, predestination, perseverance of the saints, Christ died for His sheep...those the Father gives Him.....etc.

My point is that Calvinism is not new at all, if it is Bible, though it may be heralded as a latecomer by name. If what you call Early Church did not teach it (how many examples do you have concerning what they taught, btw, to demonstrate it wasn't taught?) how does that relate to what the apostles taught?

What is the subject from which I shifted?

Do you agree with limited atonement?