How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

[John Caldwell]

It was not an error, even if contextually @Clare73 takes it to mean "instead of". I'm saying he may well have meant exactly that, or even 'at least that', without getting that specific.

Can you please provide a reference from a Koine Greek scholar defining περί as "instead of"?

I'm not saying you are wrong, just wanting to see how that is linguistically feasible.


IMHO περί cannot mean "instead of". That said, one could argue that the way Christ died "for" or "because of" our sins is that He died instead of us.

Untul then, I must chalk this up to Clare's insistence that forgiveness is an accounting term meaning payment/ cancelation. It fits Calvinism but is not accurate.

That said, using the normal meaning of περί does not dispute Calvinism. It just does not make Calvinism the only possible interpretation (which, as the past few decades have shown, is the agenda behind redefining these words).

 

[BNR32FAN]

I am curious how you come up with this notion that anyone can receive the Holy Spirit by the enemy!! I won't scream heresy, just yet, because I'm hoping you didn't mean quite what you wrote there.

Ok to be fair I shouldn’t have even mentioned that. I used that as an example of how some Calvinists will ignore scripture in order to protect their doctrine. Someone in this thread said that the people mentioned in Hebrews 6:4-6 and John 15:6 are tares and even after I pointed out that no one can come to Christ unless The Father draws him and the Holy Spirit precedes from The Father and that the tares were planted by the enemy not by The Father that person still refused to comment any further and recognize her mistake and still insisted they are tares. So that wasn’t directed towards you it was just an example of what lengths some Calvinists will go to, to protect their precious doctrines. So I apologize that was not directed at you it was just used as an example of how far some people will go to ignore scriptures in order to hold on to their precious doctrines.

 

[Clare73]

Really? What verse specifically states that the Holy Spirit is God?

John 15:26 - The Holy Spirit "proceeded out from within" (ek-poreuetai) God.

We see the meaning of ekporeuetai in
Mark 7:19 - into his stomach and "out of the body"
Revelation 9:17 - out of--from within--their mouths come fire and smoke and sulfur
Revelation 11:5 - fire comes out of--from within--their mouths

John 15:26 - Jesus said that the Spirit of Truth goes out from (proceeds--ekporeuetai--comes from within) the Father. . .like himself (John 8:42, 16:27-28, 17:8); i.e., that
the Spirit comes from within the Father, like himself, and
is of the same nature as the Father, like himself--that
the Spirit is divine (deity), like himself.

Revelation 22:1 - We also see that the river of the water of life, the Holy Spirit (v.17), flows from (ek-poreuomenon) the throne of God and the Lamb, symbolizing the procession (going forth) of the Holy Spirit from within the Father and the Son.

That which proceeds from within God is God.

Likewise, Jesus said the Holy Spirit is "another" Comforter--another like himself (John 14:16-17, 25-26 15:26, 16:7), and Jesus is God (John 1:1, 14).

That the Holy Spirit is God is not just "inference," it is presented in
events (Luke 1:35; Matthew 3:16-17) and statements (above).

Punishing people for failure to meet an impossible expectation is unjust.

And it is impossible for man to be sinless, and yet God sends all those who are not sinless to damnation.

And so you declare God to be unjust.

And freely choosing to disobey God both before and after being connected to Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit even to the point of falling away and failing to remain in Christ. Hebrews 6:4-6 John 15:6.

There are both wheat and tares in the church, and they look alike.
See Matthew 7:21-23.

They’re tares, Christ specifically stated that He never knew them.

Precisely. . .and yet they performed many miracles, prophesied and drove out demons.

Tares look like wheat. . .

 

[John Mullally]

All God's checks are cashed.

Hey self-proclaimed Paulist: Paul states that Jesus made the payment for sin for all men in 1 Timothy 2:6. And yet all men are not saved.

God writes no checks that are not cashed.
(Remember, he already knows who will cash them, right?)

Jesus states the method for cashing this check in Mark 16:16. Peter states the method for cashing this check in Acts 2:38-29. Paul states the method for cashing this check in Romans 10:9-10. There is no automatic payment.

The proclamation for cashing the salvation check is termed by Calvinists as the Gospel. In other Christian circles, they add temporal things like healing and prosperity,

 

[BNR32FAN]

No doubt Calvinists do that too, but so does everyone else. Ha, even those who don't know that they have a theology! Nevertheless, I am curious how you come up with this notion that anyone can receive the Holy Spirit by the enemy!! I won't scream heresy, just yet, because I'm hoping you didn't mean quite what you wrote there.

"According to" can as easily mean "in keeping with" as it can mean "based on". And that is in English. What is found on both sides of "according to", in English, can be derived from something else they have in common. If you can prove to me otherwise, from the Greek, have at it. You can't, from the English, but I don't' know Greek as well as English.

I don’t know Greek as well as English either and the Greek word translated to “according to” I admit does have a whole lot of meanings. Even the term “in keeping with” in my opinion suggests that His predestination was the result of His foreknowledge. He predestined us before creation. His foreknowledge is something that was foreseen in the future. So before creation He foresaw something that He based His predestination on. Predestined is the action that took place, the effect of what He had foreseen in the future it’s a verb. Foreknowledge is what the action was based on or a result of, it’s a noun.

Ok here’s a side question that might shed some light on this topic. Why did Jesus die for the sins of the whole world?

“My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭4‬:‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Clare73]

Hey self-proclaimed Paulist: Paul states that Jesus made the payment for sin for all men in 1 Timothy 2:6. And yet all men are not saved.

Actually, the word "man" is not in the Greek. It's just "all."
Peter is talking to the elect. Jesus made the payment for all (the elect).

Jesus states the method for cashing this check in Mark 16:16. Peter states the method for cashing this check in Acts 2:38-29. Paul states the method for cashing this check in Romans 10:9-10. There is no automatic payment.

And God being omniscient knows who will satisfy the method to cash them, and who will not, right?

And I'm sayin' he doesn't bother to write checks for those who will not cash them.

The proclamation for cashing the salvation check is termed by Calvinists as the Gospel. In other Christian circles, they add temporal things like healing and prosperity,

Checks aren't cashed by proclamation. . .they are cashed only by faith.

 

[Clare73]

You are unfamiliar with the Gospel as their are terms to receiving salvation (Mark 16:16)

Paul states that God desires all men be saved in 1 Timothy 2:4.

And God "desired" Pharaoh to let his people go (Exodus 7:2), but God hardened his heart so that he would not (Exodus 4:21).

 

[BNR32FAN]

John 15:26 - The Holy Spirit "proceeded out from within" (ek-poreuetai) God.

We see the meaning of ekporeuetai in
Mark 7:19 - into his stomach and "out of the body"
Revelation 9:17 - out of--from within--their mouths come fire and smoke and sulfur
Revelation 11:5 - fire comes out of--from within--their mouths

John 15:26 - Jesus said that the Spirit of Truth goes out from (proceeds--ekporeuetai--comes from within) the Father. . .like himself (John 8:42, 16:27-28, 17:8); i.e., that
the Spirit comes from within the Father, like himself, and
is of the same nature as the Father, like himself--that
the Spirit is divine (deity), like himself.

Revelation 22:1 - We also see that the river of the water of life, the Holy Spirit (v.17), flows from (ek-poreuomenon) the throne of God and the Lamb, symbolizing the procession (going forth) of the Holy Spirit from within the Father and the Son.

That which proceeds from within God is God.

Likewise, Jesus said the Holy Spirit is "another" Comforter--another like himself (John 14:16-17, 25-26 15:26, 16:7), and Jesus is God (John 1:1, 14).

That the Holy Spirit is God is not just "inference," it is presented in events and statements.

This statement you made “That which proceeds from within God is God.” Where did that come from?

So according to all this there’s a 4th member of the Godhead!! Because look it came out of God!!

“In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Like I said there is no verse that states that the Holy Spirit is God it’s an inference which like I said the Trinity is based on an inference. That’s why you had to go thru all this explanation about what proceeds from God is God, which is not written in the scriptures by the way that’s just your estimation or perhaps someone’s commentary you read about, because you couldn’t just post a quote of a verse that actually says that the Holy Spirit is God. The scriptures say that Jesus is God. In the beginning the Word was with God and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. That is scripture specifically stating that Jesus is God. I don’t think I need to mention The Father being referred to as God because it’s throughout the Bible. But the Holy Spirit is never referred to as God. I’m not saying that He’s not God, but you have proven my point.

 

[Clare73]

Yet Christ paid for the sins of the whole world, most people won’t cash that check. For many are called but few are chosen.

I don't see omniscient God writing checks for people whom he knows will not cash them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And it is impossible for man to be sinless, and yet God sends all those who are not sinless to damnation.

And so you declare God to be unjust.

Wow that’s hilarious, except that you forgot to mention for God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son and whosoever believeth in Him shall never perish but have eternal life.

So what God really did was provided a way for everyone to be saved. Well at least according to my theology. What about your’s, does God provide a way for all men to be saved? Oh that’s right your a Calvinist so the answer would be no.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There are both wheat and tares in the church, and they look alike.
See Matthew 7:21-23.

We’re not talking about looks. Does Hebrews 6:4-6 say that the person looked like he was enlightened by the Holy Spirit? Did Jesus say anyone who looks like they’re abiding in Him in John 15:6?

Even now you still can’t admit your mistake. You must be saying to yourself those verses can’t actually be saying what they appear to be saying because that would contradict these doctrines. Yeah, that’s what I used to say to myself to. When that happens it’s time to reevaluate your theology. There’s only one truth.

Edit: BTW Matthew 7:21-23 doesn’t say those people were in Christ or that they had partaken of the Holy Spirit. It has nothing to do with the discussion.

 

[John Mullally]

Unless all means "all without distinction" (Gentile as well as Jew),
rather than "all without exception" (all mankind).

Paul speaks of all men, not some men, three times in 1 Timothy 2:1-6. Paul never mentions Gentile vs Jew in his writings to Timothy. Again, the self-proclaimed Paulist demonstrates he does not believe Paul.

Checks aren't cashed by proclamation. . .they are cashed only by faith.

Yes, receiving anythiing from God is only cashed by faith (Hebrews 11:11-12). Jesus commanded His disciples to proclaim the Gospel - so I don't get your objection to the Great Commission.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Precisely. . .and yet they performed many miracles, prophesied and drove out demons.

Tares look like wheat. . .

So what?! Who cares?! Your comparing people who Jesus specifically said He never knew to people whom Jesus specifically said we in Him and people who the scriptures specifically state were enlightened by the Holy Spirit. Your trying to deflect by bring up a completely different group of people who were never in Christ and had never received the Holy Spirit. Tares are planted by the enemy. Anyone who was ever in Christ was not connect to Him by the enemy. Anyone who received the Holy Spirit did not receive Him from the enemy. That’s what you need to focus on.

 

[Clare73]

This statement you made “That which proceeds from within God is God.”
Where did that come from?

The laws of reality.

Anyone that proceeds from within me is my child, and is human as I am human, not an animal.

So according to all this
there’s a 4th member of the Godhead!! Because look it came out of God!!

And the name of this 4th member?

“In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Being in his mouth does not mean it came forth from within God.
The food in my mouth does not come from within me.

To be more specific: any person proceeding from within God is God.

Like I said there is no verse that states that the Holy Spirit is God

Au contraire. . .

Jesus is God (John 1:1, John 1:14) and

"The Lord (Jesus) is the Spirit" (2 Corinthians 3:17).
"The Lord (Jesus) who is the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:18).

Holy Spirit = Jesus = God.

In stating that Jesus is the Holy Spirit,
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 states that the Holy Spirit is God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ad God "desired" Pharaoh to let his people go (Exodus 7:2), but God hardened his heart so that he would not (Exodus 4:21).

And you already know why God did that because I just quoted this verse to you yesterday.

First of all God hardened Pharaoh’s heart because He knew that Pharaoh would not do as He had commanded.

“But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go. I will grant this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be that when you go, you will not go empty-handed. But every woman shall ask of her neighbor and the woman who lives in her house, articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing; and you will put them on your sons and daughters. Thus you will plunder the Egyptians.””
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭3‬:‭19‬-‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

I don't see omniscient God writing checks for people whom he knows will not cash them.

Well maybe you haven’t read 1 John 2:1-2 or 1 John 4:14 yet. Maybe that’s the problem, I highly recommend them.

 

[Clare73]

Paul speaks of all men, not some men, three times in 1 Timothy 2:1-6.

Actually, he speaks of all "men" only twice. There is no "men" in v.6, it is only "all". . .those to whom he is writing, the elect.

Paul never mentions Gentile vs Jew in his writings to Timothy.

Again, the self-proclaimed Paulist demonstrates he does not believe Paul.

Or: Again, one who thinks such does not understand Paul.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Paul speaks of all men, not some men, three times in 1 Timothy 2:1-6. Paul never mentions Gentile vs Jew in his writings to Timothy. Again, the self-proclaimed Paulist demonstrates he does not believe Paul.
Yes, receiving anythiing from God is only cashed by faith. Jesus commanded His disciples to proclaim the Gospel - so I don't get your objection to the Great Commission.

Amen and the same with Romans 2:9-11 and Acts 10:34-35

 

[BNR32FAN]

Being in his mouth does not mean it came forth from within God.
The food in my mouth does not come from within me.

It’s the same exact word you used in your explanation. I would’ve expected that you would’ve at least taken the time to check that first or at least expect that so would.

 

[Clare73]

So what?! Who cares?! Your comparing people who Jesus specifically said He never knew to people whom Jesus specifically said we in Him and people who the scriptures specifically state were enlightened by the Holy Spirit. Your trying to deflect by bring up a completely different group of people who were never in Christ and had never received the Holy Spirit.

And you know this how? . .when they have performed many miracles, prophesied and drove out demons
in his name?