Why people reject the reality of Hell

[Servus]

@MMXX

What modern Judaism believes about hell or anything else is irrelevant. What modern Jews believe has no effect on Christianity.
However what the 1st century Jews believed about hell and everything else did affect the first Christians, including the disciples, because they were taught those beliefs when they regularly attended temple and synagogues.
And as I have shown many times, among Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment which they called both Gehinnom and Sheol which was written as "Gehenna" and "Hades" in the 225 BC LXX and the N.T.
My post [post #624]

Post #624 doesn't establish that 1st century Jews believed anything different than 21st century Jews regarding eternal torment. The only part of post #624 that has anything written about it is found in Enoch and Judith both of which are works of dubious apocrypha.

What would convincingly support your position that 1st century Jews had a doctrine of eternal torment, would be a direct statement from a Rabbi saying so.

 

[Servus]

It may be irrelevant to you personally. However, I am open to exploring Judaism paradigms. Apologist for Judaism explains that they do not teach eternal torment. Source THE JEWISH DOCTRINE OF HELL By Daniel Cohn-Sherbok.

See if you can find any solid evidence that Judaism had a doctrine of eternal torment in the 1st century. It seems a forgone conclusion that a Rabbi who wrote an entire book on the Jewish doctrine of hell would know about that, and would have addressed it in his book.

 

[wendykvw]

See if you can find any solid evidence that Judaism had a doctrine of eternal torment in the 1st century. It seems a forgone conclusion that a Rabbi who wrote an entire book on the Jewish doctrine of hell would know about that, and would have addressed it in his book.

I don’t know if this would be helpful or not. My apologies if this is redundant.
“For early rabbinic eschatology, the clearest and most comprehensive treatment remains George Foot Moore's Judaism in the First Centuries of the Christian Era, the Age of Annaim, 3 vols. (Cambridge, Mass., 1927–1930). Volume 2 contains (on pages 279–395).”
Link Afterlife: Jewish Concepts | Encyclopedia.com

 

[Der Alte]

Post #624 doesn't establish that 1st century Jews believed anything different than 21st century Jews regarding eternal torment. The only part of post #624 that has anything written about it is found in Enoch and Judith both of which are works of dubious apocrypha.
What would convincingly support your position that 1st century Jews had a doctrine of eternal torment, would be a direct statement from a Rabbi saying so.

Your unsupported opinion of my sources is meaningless rubbish! I highlighted all of the sources in blue and what was said in red and rabbinical sources bolded.
I have repeatedly documented that there was a among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus a belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment which they called both "sheol" and "Gehinnom" in the 225 BC LXX an d the NT. Nothing you have said or could say changes anything.

 

[Lukaris]

How about the Harrowing of Hell aka Hell Obliterated as depicted in my avatar?

That is part of the Lord’s redeeming work as in His descent into Hades after His crucifixion leading up to His resurrection. ( what we often call “ Easter”).This account is given in 1 Peter 3:18-22, 1 Peter 4:1-6 & briefly referred to in Ephesians 4:8-9. This is not the final judgment of course.

 

[Servus]

That is part of the Lord’s redeeming work as in His descent into Hades after His crucifixion leading up to His resurrection. ( what we often call “ Easter”).This account is given in 1 Peter 3:18-22, 1 Peter 4:1-6 & briefly referred to in Ephesians 4:8-9. This is not the final judgment of course.

I know, I'm just saying the Orthodox view is more appealing to universalists than the Protestant view. I actually became acquainted with the Orthodox view though a conversation with a universalist here. Brad Jersak (an EO theologian) told me "the hymnody that leads the way and is our primary theology is unabashedly universalist" “Let Every Mortal Leap for Joy”: Apocatastatic Hymnody in Orthodox Worship

 

[wendykvw]

I know, I'm just saying the Orthodox view is more appealing to universalists than the Protestant view. I actually became acquainted with the Orthodox view though a conversation with a universalist here. Brad Jersak (an EO theologian) told me "the hymnody that leads the way and is our primary theology is unabashedly universalist" “Let Every Mortal Leap for Joy”: Apocatastatic Hymnody in Orthodox Worship

You spoke to Brad Jersak in this forum? Amazing. I have his book. A few years ago we had a Universalist conference here in Colorado and he was a guest speaker. Along with many others.

 

[Lukaris]

Re the link for Orthodox hymns

“Let Every Mortal Leap for Joy”: Apocatastatic Hymnody in Orthodox Worship

Yes, this is true of much of our hymns for what little I know. I am just an average layperson although I am in the choir and these hymns are familiar. I am glad our message is overall hopeful & positive.

Still, when it comes to the judgment there is our hopeful side but there is also a fearful message as in the Saturday vesperal hymns that precede the Sunday of the Final Judgment as we lead up to Lent.

See:

https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/triodion/lstjudg.txt

 

[Servus]

You spoke to Brad Jersak in this forum? Amazing. I have his book. A few years ago we had a Universalist conference here in Colorado and he was a guest speaker. Along with many others.

We exchanged email.

 

[Der Alte]

It may be irrelevant to you personally. However, I am open to exploring Judaism paradigms. Apologist for Judaism explains that they do not teach eternal torment. Source THE JEWISH DOCTRINE OF HELL By Daniel Cohn-Sherbok.

You, as anyone in this forum, are free to read anything you want, any time you want to but the topic of this thread is "Why people reject the reality of Hell." You claim Cohn-Sherbok is an Apologist for Judaism. Unless he cites historical Jewish writings such as the 1917 Jewish Encyclopdia, the 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud which I have quoted repeatedly, his writings are no more compelling than the graffiti on a passing box car.
What modern day Jews believe about "hell" or anything else has absolutely no effect on the faith and practices of Christianity. Therefore those beliefs have no bearing on why Christians reject the reality of hell.

 

[Der Alte]

Duplicate post deleted.

 

[wendykvw]

You, as anyone in this forum, are free to read anything you want, any time you want to but the topic of this thread is "Why people reject the reality of Hell." You claim Cohn-Sherbok is an Apologist for Judaism. Unless he cites historical Jewish writings such as the 1917 Jewish Encyclopdia, the 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud which I have quoted repeatedly, his writings are no more compelling than the graffiti on a passing box car.
What modern day Jews believe about "hell" or anything else has absolutely no effect on the faith and practices of Christianity. Therefore those beliefs have no bearing on why Christians reject the reality of hell.

Who rejects the reality of hell? And the history of hell in Judaism is part of the discussion according to how Judaism interpreted the Tanakh . So yes, it is relevant.

 

[Servus]

Your unsupported opinion of my sources is meaningless rubbish!

There's no need to throw a tantrum.

I highlighted all of the sources in blue and what was said in red and rabbinical sources bolded.
I have repeatedly documented that there was a among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus a belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment which they called both "sheol" and "Gehinnom" in the 225 BC LXX an d the NT. Nothing you have said or could say changes anything.

Well if you only put in red everything in all of post #624 which actually says anything about eternal torment, written before the time of Jesus, you have:

The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" Judith xvi. 17 (dubious apocrypha).

The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al).

I thought at first the Enoch reference also had something about eternal hell, but that's because the Enoch reference and the Judith reference are crammed together. So now it's down to just Judith.

Fuss all you want, but that's all there is.

How about just quoting what a Rabbi says regarding hell in 1st century Judaism instead?

 

[Original Happy Camper]

You all need to read the book of Lazurus as he was dead for four days before Christ ressurected him.

 

[P1LGR1M]

How about just quoting what a Rabbi says regarding 1st century Judaism instead?

How about this:

Matthew 23:15 KJV
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.


God bless.

 

[Marumorose]

Jesus and the Bible says that Hell is a real literal place in the heart of the Earth, (Matthew 12:40, Ephesians 4:9, Isaiah 14:9) eternal torment (torture) worm dieth not (Mark 9:44), facing the full wrath of God it isn’t separation (Revelation 14:10). It is a place created by God (Colossians 1:16, John 1:3) where the wicked souls immediately go to after death (Luke 16:23) and start their eternal conscious torment. (Luke 16:25) Eventually Hell will be thrown into the Lake of Fire after the great white throne judgement (Revelation 20:11-15) and that will be eternal. (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 20:10, Daniel 12:2, Jude 7)

Why do people reject the biblical fact of Hell? Firstly it isn’t preached to them, the prosperity health and wealth motivational speakers don’t speak on the reality of Hell, they openly admit to not preaching about sin, or the controversial issues, it might scare some people off. They don’t care about saving souls from Hell, the place that Jesus suffered and died shed his blood to save us from, clearly anyone who does would be preaching the reality of Hell to everyone they know to keep people out of it.

Secondly it’s not preached correctly, even if someone preaches Hell they say, well nobody really goes there except those who are really bad like Hitler and Stalin, God is too loving to send people to hell, most people are good people, Or that Hell is actually not eternal, or the wicked are just annihilated, burned up once and that’s it, what the Bible really means when it says eternal punishment is just that the punishment lasts forever but you’re not conscious you just get burned up once. Or the wicked just go to temporary place like purgatory to pay off their sins then enter Heaven.

Or that the wicked just cease to exist at death, there’s no eternal punishment or torment that’s it (they use the word destroy in Matthew 10:28 to teach annihilation theory despite Matthew 25:46, Revelation 20:10 saying the wicked will go to eternal punishment so the word destroy can’t possibly mean cease to exist) destroy, perish, consume these three words do not mean ceasing to exist like some teach, Hell is eternal punishment is clearly taught in scripture. Not annihilation or ceasing to exist.

Other verses disproving annihilation: 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Jude 13

Or Hell is just seperation from God (whatever that means) they say being separated from God is the worst torment (no you won’t be separated Gods wrath will be on them forever Psalm 139:8)

Other lies you hear about hell: hell is just a state of mind, this earth is hell, hell is empty nobody but Satan goes there and he isn’t in there yet. Or that Hell is run by Satan (no Jesus is control of death and hell, Satan isn’t in hell or the Lake of fire yet his throne is on the Earth) Or that the wicked don’t immediately go to Hell at death, despite the fact that the Rich man went straight to hell. This idea that nobody is in hell yet comes from a misunderstanding of scripture, the fact is there is a place called Hell currently located in the center of the Earth (Matthew 12:40, Ephesians 4:9, Isaiah 14:9) one day they will be resurrected and judged, then death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire. The current Hell and the Lake of Fire are two seperate places and locations, nobody is in the Lake of Fire yet, they are all in the first Hell awaiting resurrection and judgement. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach soul sleep, or souls sleeping in the grave, when the Bible uses the word sleep it is talking about death, and the physical body, not the soul.

Thirdly people can’t comprehend the reality of eternal torment of Hell so they just reject it, “a loving God would never send his creation to eternal pain in Hell” “well my preacher says that Hell is not really Hell and everybody goes to paradise” the truth is that Gods word clearly says that most people will go to hell no matter what or who anyone else says, and that they fully deserve it, God is just.

Fourthly people believe in doctrines of men not found once in scripture: annihilation, purgatory, or universal salvation, none of this is truly found in the Bible but these are man made doctrines that tickles people’s ears and makes them feel good by lying with Gods word. they take verses in the Bible completely out of context to create their theology, while ignoring the dozens of verses warning about the real literal Hell. This is why it is important to read the entire Bible not just the parts we personally agree with.

Fifthly they believe these different translations of the word Hell: they teach that English Bible versions have falsely used the word Hell for Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, people will take these words from other languages and use them to describe totally different places, people will say oh Sheol just means the grave for instance, Sheol is just a grave, you go to the grave. I guess they use this to believe in annihilation or soul sleep. Then they will take the word Gehenna and say that when the Bible uses Gehenna that means it isn’t really talking about hell, just a place in Jerusalem.

Sixthly (building on the fifth point) they use different translations like Greek and Hebrew to explain away words like eternal, they lie and say it doesn’t really mean eternal. It is easy to deceive people in other languages that they don’t know about. Catholic Church used Latin for hundreds of years, nobody could understand it. Anytime someone says we need to go back to the Greek, Latin or Hebrew for something, that is a red flag, this person is trying to change the meaning of scripture and deceive you in languages you don’t understand. As if God would confuse us enough to have to go to other languages to get the real meaning of his eternal word.

I could go on but I will end here, the point is that Hell is real, it is eternal because the Bible says so, there are no ways around it, those who do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation and they never get saved will be sent there regardless of how good of a person they thought or others thought that they were. We need to spread the truth, wake people up to reality and not give them some feel good motivational message to not risk offending people, this is eternity on the line, people’s souls we can’t play around in our messaging of the gospel.

Hell is inside AND outside of us. There are many levels of hell. People must Not think that we experience/connect with hell after death only! We are connected to heaven and hell while on earth. Evil people are influenced by hell and righteous people are influenced by heaven. After death we go to the place we corresponded to while we were still on earth
May God Bless You

 

[P1LGR1M]

Hell is inside AND outside of us. There are many levels of hell. People must Not think that we experience/connect with hell after death only! We are connected to heaven and hell while on earth. Evil people are influenced by hell and righteous people are influenced by heaven. After death we go to the place we corresponded to while we were still on earth
May God Bless You

I would take issue with that for a couple different reasons:

1. Hell (Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, the final destination of the lost/unsaved/unredeemed) is a literal place taught in Scripture (Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:11-15), and the redeemed have been from the wrath that is to come. We are "connected" to Christ, not Hell.

2. While it is true Christians can sin, and be tempted by Satan, be put to death according to the general principle that "the wages of sin is death," and even be given over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (1 Corinthians 5:5)—it remains true that we are in Christ and thus have no connection to Hell.

3. Lastly, we cannot create two distinct groups of "evil" and "righteous" from a temporal perspective, because even those who are "righteous" can commit evil after being born again, and our only claim to being "righteous" is not based on what we have done or what we are doing or what we will do—it is based on the righteousness of Christ alone. So when we look at this from an eternal perspective we cannot support a notion that our eternal destinies will be based on whether we are more "connected" to Heaven or Hell in our temporal standing.

Remission of sins is a once-for-all accomplishment by Christ on the Cross and is credited to the believer on His behalf. As far as our daily conversation and our temporal standing, if we say we have not, do not, or will not sin while we remain in this flesh we deceive ourselves.

Thankfully, as we grow in Christ we have an Advocate with the Father. We all start out as babes, and our progressive sanctification is something we can affect through seeking to walk with Him closer. It is just my belief that born-again believers will grow, but the rate of growth can be hindered by our sin. That doesn't make for "better" and "worse" Christians, just those who are more mature and those who are more immature.

On a side note, your name and picture look a lot like someone who runs an orphanage in SA, who is also known as Sister Rose. That isn't you by any chance, is it?

God bless.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Just keep telling yourself that. It won't change the reality of eternal condemnation in the lake of fire.
The only question that really matters is whether your denial of eternal condemnation undermines yor belief in the word of God to the point at which you are not saved.

The REALITY is that the Lake of Fire is not eternal, nor is "condemnation" to it eternal. It is age-long at the most, and designed to burn away the dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble of those cast in - to burn away all that cannot endure the fire. How do I know? Because God describes Himself as a Refiner of Men - often as Fire and sometimes as Soap. Nowhere is it said about the LoF that those cast in are there forever or annihilated, but people read that into the relevant verses. In this connection, take a look at I Corinthians 3:15.

 

[Receivedgrace]

The REALITY is that the Lake of Fire is not eternal, nor is "condemnation" to it eternal. It is age-long at the most, and designed to burn away the dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble of those cast in - to burn away all that cannot endure the fire. How do I know? Because God describes Himself as a Refiner of Men - often as Fire and sometimes as Soap. Nowhere is it said about the LoF that those cast in are there forever or annihilated, but people read that into the relevant verses. In this connection, take a look at I Corinthians 3:15.

Just how do you suppose that the devil and his angels will be refined? 1000 years in the bottomless pit and when they come out they foment a rebellion against God.
1 Cor 3:15 is Christ judging the works of believers not God judging lost souls which happens at the GWT judgment.
Lost souls are judged for their sins. Christians are judged for their works.

 

[Der Alte]

There's no need to throw a tantrum.
Well if you only put in red everything in all of post #624 which actually says anything about eternal torment, written before the time of Jesus, you have:
The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" Judith xvi. 17 (dubious apocrypha).
I thought at first the Enoch reference also had something about eternal hell, but that's because the Enoch reference and the Judith reference are crammed together. So now it's down to just Judith.
Fuss all you want, but that's all there is.
How about just quoting what a Rabbi says regarding hell in 1st century Judaism instead?

What affect has all of your objections had? Did anything change? Have you convinced anyone of anything? Do you think the Jews will revise their sources?
Here again what you can't seem to see.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the eleven [11] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).

“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them [quoted as factual DA] (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
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[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
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[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​