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Why people reject the reality of Hell

BobRyan

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I found little support for annihilation in the Bible.

Did you read

Matt 10:28??
Ezek 28:18-19 ??
Rev 20:9?
John 3:16?
1 John 3:15?​

As usual, side-stepping and misdirection. There is really no getting around God's taunt to Death and the Grave. Either He can make the taunt...or He can't. Deal with it.

Is that you saying you have not read those texts??
 
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BobRyan

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Not correct - the Fire of the Lake of Fire is the same Fire Moses saw in the Burning Bush. It is the same Fire that came out of the heavens and devoured this person or that person or Sodom & Gomorrah, etc, etc. A long and tedious word study on "fire," "burning" and related words informed me that all supernatural Fire mentioned in the Bible is in fact, Godfire, not "hellfire." That, btw, is why the LoF is not ID'd as "hell" in the Bible.

I see you also have no one emerging from the LOF and so no one surviving it. No wonder scripture calls it "the second death".,
 
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Lazarus Short

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Did you read

Matt 10:28??
Ezek 28:18-19 ??
Rev 20:9?
John 3:16?
1 John 3:15?​

Of course I did. I examined every book, chapter and verse in the Bible to decide which held the better explanation: damnation, annihilation and universal reconciliation. Isn't it interesting that the first two options have the emphasis on failure, and only the last on victory?

But, to be fair:

Matthew 10:28 should read "gehenna," not "hell."

Ezekiel 28:18-19 is about the King of Tyre, and he is pronounced to be a man in verse 9.

Revelation 20:9 is about people being devoured by Godfire. It had happened before, but nothing is said about them: damnation? annihilation? salvation? We don't know, and I try not to read my assumptions into the text.

John 3:16 is about those who believe, and I just think that all will...in the fullness of time. The doctrine of death being the cutoff for salvation is a doctrine of men. God can do anything, including saving the "lost."

First John 3:15 is about no eternal life in murderers, but that goes for any sin, and do you recall that John the Baptist called Jesus the Christ to be the Lamb who takes away the sins (not sinners) of the world?
 
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Lazarus Short

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Did you read

Matt 10:28??
Ezek 28:18-19 ??
Rev 20:9?
John 3:16?
1 John 3:15?​



Is that you saying you have not read those texts??

It was directed at another poster, before I saw your post.
 
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Lazarus Short

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I see you also have no one emerging from the LOF and so no one surviving it. No wonder scripture calls it "the second death".,

OK, riddle me this: If no one emerges from the LoF and no one survives it, then how does God make His famous taunt against Death? See First Corinthians 15:55?

Further, if no one emerges/survives, how does God ever become All in all?
 
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DavidPT

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OK, riddle me this: If no one emerges from the LoF and no one survives it, then how does God make His famous taunt against Death? See First Corinthians 15:55?

Further, if no one emerges/survives, how does God ever become All in all?


What is your view about what happens to those recorded in Revelation 20:10? Do you think any of them ever emerge from the LOF to be reconciled with God? Doesn't satan have an arsenal of fallen angels that he is in command of? Which should mean what happens to satan happens to them as well.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Doesn't this verse undeniably show that once satan is cast into the LOF, the result is this?---and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. The only way the tormenting can't continue throughout all eternity, for ever and ever has to have an end eventually.


How can for ever and ever have an end eventually?
 
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Der Alte

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OK, riddle me this: If no one emerges from the LoF and no one survives it, then how does God make His famous taunt against Death? See First Corinthians 15:55?
Further, if no one emerges/survives, how does God ever become All in all?
Hey! I feel neglected over here. What am I? A red headed stepchild?
Wonderful words! This passage certainly must mean all mankind will be saved, the unrighteous and righteous alike. Right?

1 Corinthians 15:52-58
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Who is Paul addressing in this vs. "all mankind?" NO! Who is we? Read this vs. in context. The "we" is NOT all mankind but "my beloved brethren!" vs. 58.
It seems certain groups insist on reading vss. out-of-context trying to make them say what they do not say.

(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
(56) The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
(57) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Who is "us" in this vs? Is it all mankind? Again, no! It is still "my beloved brethren", vs. 58
(58) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
It is abundantly clear that this passage is NOT an all mankind will be saved text. Paul is addressing "my beloved brethren" throughout the passage. "be stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord." All mankind are not involved "in the work of the Lord" And all mankind do NOT "know" that their menial, mundane work is "not in vain."
 
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BobRyan

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Of course I did. I examined every book, chapter and verse in the Bible to decide which held the better explanation:

That is good to know. It is the right way to do it.
 
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Lazarus Short

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What is your view about what happens to those recorded in Revelation 20:10? Do you think any of them ever emerge from the LOF to be reconciled with God? Doesn't satan have an arsenal of fallen angels that he is in command of? Which should mean what happens to satan happens to them as well.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Doesn't this verse undeniably show that once satan is cast into the LOF, the result is this?---and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


How can for ever and ever have an end eventually?

As I said a few posts ago, I try to not read more into a Scripture than what is there - otherwise I would be "adding to," which God tells us not to do. OTOH, I do compare & contrast verses, some of them very far apart. I have this idea that God scatters His truth here and there in the text so that we must go back, go back, go back again and again to expose ourselves to His Word.

As I have also said before, some things are above my pay grade, and probably yours too.

As for "for ever and ever," check those verses out in an interlinear Greek/English version.
 
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BobRyan

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Of course I did. I examined every book, chapter and verse in the Bible to decide which held the better explanation: damnation, annihilation and universal reconciliation. Isn't it interesting that the first two options have the emphasis on failure, and only the last on victory?

But, to be fair:

Matthew 10:28 should read "gehenna," not "hell."

And so it does - but that is the word that is translated as "hell" since obviously God will not transport each human that is lost to Jerusalem and kill them in the dumpster fire that used to be there 1000's of years ago,

So then the details in Matt 10:28 point to the fact that in this life the body is killed but not the soul. Yet God is the one that destroys both body and soul in fiery hell so then He is the one to fear not those humans who in this life can only kill the body.
 
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BobRyan

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OK, riddle me this: If no one emerges from the LoF and no one survives it, then how does God make His famous taunt against Death? See First Corinthians 15:55?

Further, if no one emerges/survives, how does God ever become All in all?

1 Cor 15:
50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I am telling you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written: “Death has been swallowed up in victory. 55 Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 15 makes it clear it is only those "who are Christ's" , those who "have believed in Christ in this life" that go to that eternal immortal reward.

Rev 21 speaks to the time when the lake of fire event has destroyed all the wicked and is no longer going on... and it says

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

There comes a point after the lake of fire event ends - that no one will ever again be subject to death -- no more dying, no more pain and suffering.

The text does not say "nothing ever died in all of time" or that every animal or bug that ever died comes back to life. And it does not say that every human that was consumed in the lake of fire comes back to life again in Rev 21.
 
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Der Alte

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And so it does - but that is the word that is translated as "hell" since obviously God will not transport each human that is lost to Jerusalem and kill them in the dumpster fire that used to be there 1000's of years ago,
So then the details in Matt 10:28 point to the fact that in this life the body is killed but not the soul. Yet God is the one that destroys both body and soul in fiery hell so then He is the one to fear not those humans who in this life can only kill the body.
Are you laboring under the false assumption that when "Gehenna" is mentioned in the NT it refers to a supposed ever burning trash dump in the valley of Gehenna?
There was an ever burning trash dump in a valley near Jerusalem but it was NOT Gehenna, it was the next valley over, the kidron valley. This is what is know as archaeological evidence.
…..Note: There is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no, zero, none such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location … Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/
Abstract
Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem








 
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BobRyan

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Are you laboring under the false assumption that when "Gehenna" is mentioned in the NT it refers to a supposed ever burning trash dump in the valley of Gehenna?
There was an ever burning trash dump in a valley near Jerusalem but it was NOT Gehenna, it was the next valley over, the kidron valley. This is what is know as archaeological evidence.
…..Note: There is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no, zero, none such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location … Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/
Abstract
Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem

ok -- an interesting proposal.

So also is this

from: Gehenna - Lake of Everlasting Fire...Just Outside Jerusalem - Christianity Original.
"The Valley of Hinnom, named Gehenna in Greek, lies just outside the city of Jerusalem. During Jesus’ time, it was the city’s garbage burner."

Your post says this: "It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom "

You also post this "“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200;"

so then ================

from: Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) - Wikipedia

"the biblical words in the Book of Jeremiah describe events taking place in the seventh century in the place of Ben-hinnom: "Because they [the Israelites] have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind; therefore, behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when this place will no longer be called Topheth or the valley of Ben-hinnom, but rather the valley of Slaughter".[19] J. Day, Heider, and Mosca believe that the Molech cult took place in the valley of Hinnom at the Topheth.[20]

No archaeological evidence such as mass children's graves has been found; however, it has been suggested that such a find may be compromised by the heavy population history of the Jerusalem area compared to the Tophet found in Tunisia.[21] The site would also have been disrupted by the actions of Josiah "And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech." (2 Kings 23). A minority of scholars have attempted to argue that the Bible does not portray actual child sacrifice, but only dedication to the god by fire; however, they are judged to have been "convincingly disproved" (Hay, 2011).[22]

... Jeremiah also included a prophecy that Jerusalem itself would be made like Gehenna and Topheth (19:2–6, 19:11–14).

...

Rabbinical Judaism (with apocryphal/pseudo religious texts)
Although the actual term [Gehenna] does not occur in the Tanakh or Talmud, it is strictly a [Koine Greek/Alexandrian Dialect] term originated from the Hebrew [Gehinnom] and used by first Century Christ-followers to depict the literal place of eternal damnation spoken of in [Revelation 21:8] - The Lake of Fire. Gehenna is not mentioned in the Torah. Nevertheless, some rabbinic texts maintain that God created Gehenna on the second day of Creation (Genesis Rabbah 4:6, 11:9). Other texts claim that Gehenna was part of God's original plan for the universe and was actually created before the Earth (Pesahim 54a; Sifre Deuteronomy 37). The concept of Gehenna was likely inspired by the biblical notion of Sheol. The original picture of [Sheol] is not the first century "Eternal Lake of Fire" Gehenna as the place of punishment or destruction of the wicked and does not occur frequently in classic rabbinic sources.[25] Gehenna is likened to [Sheol] where the wicked go to suffer when they are judged. The Mishnah names seven Biblical individuals who do not get a share in Olam Ha-Ba: Jeroboam, Ahab, Menasseh, Doeg the Edomite, Ahitophel, Balaam, and Gehazi. According to the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda, Menasseh got a share in Olam Ha-Ba[26] Midrash Konen places Ahab in the fifth compartment of Gehenna, as having the heathen under his charge. Absalom was consigned to the 7th circle of Gehenna;[27][And according to the description of Gehenna by Joshua ben Levi, who, like Dante, wandered through hell under the guidance of the angel Duma, Absalom still dwells there, having the rebellious heathen in charge; and when the angels with their fiery rods run also against Absalom to smite him like the rest, a heavenly voice says: "Spare Absalom, the son of David, My servant."[28]]; possibly his half brother Amnon was consigned to the 2nd circle of Gehenna.[29] Amon of Judah sinned very much but his name was not placed on the list of the kings excluded from the world to come out of respect for his son Josiah; however a midrashic fragment reads: "No sin is more grievous than idolatry, for it is treason against God. Yet even this has been forgiven upon sincere repentance; but he that sins from a mere spirit of opposition, to see whether God will punish the wicked, shall find no pardon, although he say in his heart, 'I shall have peace in the end (by repenting), though I walk in the stubbornness of my evil heart'" (Deut. xxix. 19)."​
 
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Der Alte

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ok -- an interesting proposal.
So also is this
from: Gehenna - Lake of Everlasting Fire...Just Outside Jerusalem - Christianity Original.
"The Valley of Hinnom, named Gehenna in Greek, lies just outside the city of Jerusalem. During Jesus’ time, it was the city’s garbage burner."
Your post says this: "It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom "
You also post this "“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200;"
so then ================
from: Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) - Wikipedia

"the biblical words in the Book of Jeremiah describe events taking place in the seventh century in the place of Ben-hinnom: "Because they [the Israelites] have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind; therefore, behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when this place will no longer be called Topheth or the valley of Ben-hinnom, but rather the valley of Slaughter".[19] J. Day, Heider, and Mosca believe that the Molech cult took place in the valley of Hinnom at the Topheth.[20]
No archaeological evidence such as mass children's graves has been found; however, it has been suggested that such a find may be compromised by the heavy population history of the Jerusalem area compared to the Tophet found in Tunisia.[21] The site would also have been disrupted by the actions of Josiah "And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech." (2 Kings 23). A minority of scholars have attempted to argue that the Bible does not portray actual child sacrifice, but only dedication to the god by fire; however, they are judged to have been "convincingly disproved" (Hay, 2011).[22]
... Jeremiah also included a prophecy that Jerusalem itself would be made like Gehenna and Topheth (19:2–6, 19:11–14).
...

Rabbinical Judaism (with apocryphal/pseudo religious texts)
Although the actual term [Gehenna] does not occur in the Tanakh or Talmud, it is strictly a [Koine Greek/Alexandrian Dialect] term originated from the Hebrew [Gehinnom] and used by first Century Christ-followers to depict the literal place of eternal damnation spoken of in [Revelation 21:8] - The Lake of Fire. Gehenna is not mentioned in the Torah. Nevertheless, some rabbinic texts maintain that God created Gehenna on the second day of Creation (Genesis Rabbah 4:6, 11:9). Other texts claim that Gehenna was part of God's original plan for the universe and was actually created before the Earth (Pesahim 54a; Sifre Deuteronomy 37). The concept of Gehenna was likely inspired by the biblical notion of Sheol. The original picture of [Sheol] is not the first century "Eternal Lake of Fire" Gehenna as the place of punishment or destruction of the wicked and does not occur frequently in classic rabbinic sources.[25] Gehenna is likened to [Sheol] where the wicked go to suffer when they are judged. The Mishnah names seven Biblical individuals who do not get a share in Olam Ha-Ba: Jeroboam, Ahab, Menasseh, Doeg the Edomite, Ahitophel, Balaam, and Gehazi. According to the opinion of Rabbi Yehuda, Menasseh got a share in Olam Ha-Ba[26] Midrash Konen places Ahab in the fifth compartment of Gehenna, as having the heathen under his charge. Absalom was consigned to the 7th circle of Gehenna;[27][And according to the description of Gehenna by Joshua ben Levi, who, like Dante, wandered through hell under the guidance of the angel Duma, Absalom still dwells there, having the rebellious heathen in charge; and when the angels with their fiery rods run also against Absalom to smite him like the rest, a heavenly voice says: "Spare Absalom, the son of David, My servant."[28]]; possibly his half brother Amnon was consigned to the 2nd circle of Gehenna.[29] Amon of Judah sinned very much but his name was not placed on the list of the kings excluded from the world to come out of respect for his son Josiah; however a midrashic fragment reads: "No sin is more grievous than idolatry, for it is treason against God. Yet even this has been forgiven upon sincere repentance; but he that sins from a mere spirit of opposition, to see whether God will punish the wicked, shall find no pardon, although he say in his heart, 'I shall have peace in the end (by repenting), though I walk in the stubbornness of my evil heart'" (Deut. xxix. 19)."
Seems to mostly agree with my post. Also please note there is a difference between "scholars" stating an opinion, with no evidence, and the archaeological evidence presented in the second part of my post.
Despite all this there are some who will staunchly insist that all the references to Gehenna in the NT refer to the nonexistent ever burning trash dump.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Hey! I feel neglected over here. What am I? A red headed stepchild?
Wonderful words! This passage certainly must mean all mankind will be saved, the unrighteous and righteous alike. Right?

1 Corinthians 15:52-58
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Who is Paul addressing in this vs. "all mankind?" NO! Who is we? Read this vs. in context. The "we" is NOT all mankind but "my beloved brethren!" vs. 58.
It seems certain groups insist on reading vss. out-of-context trying to make them say what they do not say.

(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
(56) The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
(57) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Who is "us" in this vs? Is it all mankind? Again, no! It is still "my beloved brethren", vs. 58
(58) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
It is abundantly clear that this passage is NOT an all mankind will be saved text. Paul is addressing "my beloved brethren" throughout the passage. "be stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord." All mankind are not involved "in the work of the Lord" And all mankind do NOT "know" that their menial, mundane work is "not in vain."

Of course, Paul was addressing believers - I don't dispute that. What I do dispute is ignoring what John the Baptist said, that Jesus the Christ was the Lamb Who will take away the sins (not sinners) of the world.
 
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Der Alte

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Of course, Paul was addressing believers - I don't dispute that. What I do dispute is ignoring what John the Baptist said, that Jesus the Christ was the Lamb Who will take away the sins (not sinners) of the world.
One can quote any number of verses out-of-context and make the Bible say almost anything they want it to.
The same Jesus also said this.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Note, Jesus said "Not every one ...shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;" Then He stated some conditions.
But in the end "then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Where is a vs. where Jesus says "Everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven?"
When Jesus says never He means never, not sometime.
 
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Saint Steven

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God's compassion is seen that He saves any when all deserve eternal destruction.
"all deserve eternal destruction" - Receivedgrace

What's up with that?
 
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Lazarus Short

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One can quote any number of verses out-of-context and make the Bible say almost anything they want it to.
The same Jesus also said this.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Note, Jesus said "Not every one ...shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;" Then He stated some conditions.
But in the end "then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Where is a vs. where Jesus says "Everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven?"
When Jesus says never He means never, not sometime.

I note that any Scripture I, or any other universalist quotes, is automatically "out of context." OTOH, anything you quote, however short, is always in context.

I also note that you consider the word of John the Baptist to be worthless.
 
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FineLinen

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God also judges and has declared that sin brings death. Those who will not turn will not see life but will perish.
God's compassion is seen that He saves any when all deserve eternal destruction.
Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

There is no such thing as "eternal destruction" in Scripture. Our wonderful Father does indeed destroy with one objective, change & transformation at the conclusion.

images
 
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Der Alte

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I note that any Scripture I, or any other universalist quotes, is automatically "out of context." OTOH, anything you quote, however short, is always in context.
I also note that you consider the word of John the Baptist to be worthless.
Any verse which is posted and which disregards other vss. on the same topic which indicate a different conclusion is out-of-context.
Any vs. I post please show how it is out-of-context?
You made the false accusation that " consider the word of John the Baptist to be worthless." Is patently false. When what any NT writer writes appears to contradict the words of Jesus it must absolutely, always be resolved in favor of Jesus. The words of a disciple cannot contradict the words of Jesus.
ETA: I went back and reviewed. The words of Jesus in Matt 7:21-23 absolutely supersede the words of John in Joh 1:29. Not the wrong way round as you are doing. I cannot comprehend why you fail to understand that.
 
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