It's Sad That So Many Christians Consider Themselves "New Testament" Christians

[The Liturgist]

This is a strawman - I have posted nothing that would imply that we are free to sin. I have simply said we are not required to follow the Law of Moses.

Let me try to explain this. I am a Canadian and, as such, do not have to follow American law in any way, shape, or form. And yet even though American Law forbids murder, Canadian law does as well. So I "sin" against Canadian law if I murder someone.

In other words, I am not free to sin even though I am in no way obligated to follow American Law.

Back to the topic: If the Spirit replaces the Law, then we are certainly not free to sin against the Spirit even if we have been released from the Law. And Paul certainly does believe we (actually the Jew - Gentiles were never under the Law of Moses) have been released from the Law and now the Spirit guides us:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code

Very good post!

 

[pescador]

Regarding the OP... I don't know of any Old Testament Christians. The idea is ludicrous.

 

[The Liturgist]

Regarding the OP... I don't know of any Old Testament Christians. The idea is ludicrous.

One could argue certain early sects like the Ebionites, which rejected the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 and the authority of the Pauline epistles, and modern equivalents, fit the bill. Of course such sects would not be defined as Christian by the CF statement of faith.

 

[trophy33]

No according to God. Hebrews 8:10, Jeremiah 31:33 which we see its still a sin to break any of the Ten Commandments in the New Covenant.

1. "You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Matthew 4:10).
2. "Little children, keep yourselves from idols" (1 John 5:21). "Since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising" (Acts 17:29).
3. "That the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed" (1 Timothy 6:1).
4. "He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all His works.' There remains therefore a rest ["keeping of a sabbath," margin] for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His" (Hebrews 4:4, 9, 10).
5. "Honor your father and your mother" (Matthew 19:19).
6. "You shall not murder" (Romans 13:9).
7. "You shall not commit adultery" (Matthew 19:18).
8. "You shall not steal" (Romans 13:9).
9. "You shall not bear false witness" (Romans 13:9).
10. "You shall not covet" (Romans 7:7).

I am sticking with the scriptures. We will have to agree to disagree. God bless and tale care.

It seems you do not understand what we mean by the New Covenant. We mean the one Jesus established with his disciples before he was crucified.

You also misunderstood the text of Heb 4:4, it does not mean keeping one day of the week like ancient Jews were told to do.

 

[The Liturgist]

The first ‘New Testament Christian’ was Marcion, and he even ended up rejecting most of the New Testament. And he was a flaming heretic to boot. He did push the Church to have to define the canon. People tend to remove books they don’t particularly like from the Bible, or chapters, or sentences, or phrases, or words. The Church has told us we have a complete Bible to contend with. But we have Christians that cannot abide what they personally don’t look like.

You know he kind of tried to bribe the Church of Rome into accepting his heresy. He first made a huge donation, as he was a wealthy shipping magnate, which the early church could have used, to take care of widows and the families of the martyred and the impoverished...diaconal work, and then he started preaching his heresy, and so the Church of Rome refunded his donation and excommunicated him with immediate effect. That’s the way things should go.

Its interesting how both he and Simon Magus tried to bribe their way into the Church.

 

[The Liturgist]

Sorry buddy, but I've seen it and seen others also talk about the same thing. I do realize I should change the word's Protestant to Evangelical in the above statement.


"Many would say that the Old Testament is hard to understand. That it is confusing and in many cases troubling because of the violence held within the text. Many believers and some pastors say that the Old Testament is not relevant and should be unhinged from the rest of the Bible."

Is the Old Testament Relevant Today


Why do pastors still preach teach and insist on Old Testament laws when the same stand cancelled in the New Testament? – Evidence for Christianity

Indeed. This is really what this thread is about; I feel like the segue into the Mosaic law is a bit tangential, when the real issue is an anomic crypto-Gnostic neo-Marcionitism.

 

[The Liturgist]

...and then there is the most quoted book in the Bible, which has been removed from most Bibles:




The Book of Enoch

Fortunately the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church (and now also the Eritrean church) retained it, along with Jubilees and a few other books that were omitted by the other churches.
I tend to accept their Old Testament canon. The Ethiopian church is incredibly pious.

Also, interestingly, in ecumenical discussions both internally within the Oriental Orthodox communion, of which the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox are members, along with the Copts (Egyptians), Syriac Orthodox (Aramaic speaking Christians in the Levant, Judea, Mesopotamia and India), and the Armenians, and in ecumenical discussions between the Oriental Orthodox and other churches, such as the Eastern Orthodox, the Ethiopian inclusion of 1 Enoch has never been an issue.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It seems you do not understand what we mean by the New Covenant. We mean the one Jesus established with his disciples before he was crucified.

You also misunderstood the text of Heb 4:4, it does not mean keeping one day of the week like ancient Jews were told to do.

.
Are you suggesting to just delete Hebrews 8:10 and Jeremiah 31:33?

Jesus did not teach something different than what He followed as our example. Jesus taught the Ten Commandments and followed the Ten Commandments as our example. John 15:10, Matthew 5:17-30, Matthew 19:17, Luke 4:16-22, John 14:15, and Jesus commissioned His disciples to continue in His teachings, not teach something new or different, which is why the disciples also taught and kept the Ten Commandments. 1 John 5:3, 1 John 2:3-5, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 13:9, 1 Cor 7:19, 2 John 1:6, James 2:10-12, Romans 2:13, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12, Revelation 22:14.

Obeying the commandments of God are not burdensome to me and I love God and His law is written in my heart so for me I will stick with the scriptures and we can agree to disagree. God bless and take care.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Regarding the OP... I don't know of any Old Testament Christians. The idea is ludicrous.

There are certain groups of Messianic Jews that totally disregard all of Paul's writings, who try to keep the law with the zeal of the Pharisees, all of the Jewish feasts and who will worship only on the Sabbath. One might call them "OT Christians"?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This is a strawman - I have posted nothing that would imply that we are free to sin. I have simply said we are not required to follow the Law of Moses.

Let me try to explain this. I am a Canadian and, as such, do not have to follow American law in any way, shape, or form. And yet even though American Law forbids murder, Canadian law does as well. So I "sin" against Canadian law if I murder someone.

In other words, I am not free to sin even though I am in no way obligated to follow American Law.

Back to the topic: If the Spirit replaces the Law, then we are certainly not free to sin against the Spirit even if we have been released from the Law. And Paul certainly does believe we (actually the Jew - Gentiles were never under the Law of Moses) have been released from the Law and now the Spirit guides us:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code

I don’t think its up to us to define sin, only God can do that. We should not obey God according to our will, but obey God according to His will. God wrote His law with His own finger and His law was kept in the ark of the Covenant in the Most Holy of His Temple where God dwells, which is also revealed in Heaven. Revelation 11:19.

Which is why Paul quotes directly from the Ten when defining what sin is.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

According to James you break one of the Ten Commandment you break them all again quoting from the Ten. James 2:10-12

“Thou shalt not murder” did not magically show up in the New Testament, this was established by God as His commandments. Exodus 20:6 and Jesus repeated verbatim often. Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 5:17-30, John 15:10, John 14:15 I’m not sure trying to remove God as the author of the Ten Commandment is very wise, and when Jesus quotes “thou shalt not murder” from the Ten Commandments it is harmonizing with scripture as Jesus did not come to do His will, but the will of His Father. John 6:38 and did not come to destroy the laws. Matthew 5:17-30

I think perhaps you don’t read the scriptures I provide in my posts so I am going to quote them directly. The Spirit is given to those who obey God’s commandments. To think the Spirit and God’s laws are at odds it not something that is Biblical. The Spirit is given to those who obey.

John 14: 15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments (quoted from Exodus 20:6). 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”


We are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness and God is the one who defines sin, not us.

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

I think we should obey God on His terms, not ours, but God does give us free will. The Bible is filled with warnings about not obeying and we should always obey because of our love for God. God bless.

 

[pescador]

There are certain groups of Messianic Jews that totally disregard all of Paul's writings, who try to keep the law with the zeal of the Pharisees, all of the Jewish feasts and who will worship only on the Sabbath. One might call them "OT Christians"?

Calling them "OT Christians" is wrong. If they try to keep the law with the zeal of the Pharisees, all of the Jewish feasts and who will worship only on the Sabbath they are not Christians.

BTW, I don't know a single Messianic Jew who behaves in this manner. There are also "Christians" who don't have the faith described the Bible.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Oh goodness! Well, there goes the pork tenderloin cuisine that my wife was marinating and lovingly preparing for me and the rest of our family ... for tonight's dinner.

So, if I understand what you're saying correctly, if we eat our pork tenderloin dish tonight, it means we're going to Hell?

Yeah it is interesting the number of Christian groups that have raised pork etc. There is an Egyptian Coptic group called "The Zabaleen" which basically translates to "garbage people" who have been the Garbage men of Cairo for probably the last 1000 years or so. While they make their living through recycling, but mostly from raising piglets that they sell to tourist resorts and fancy hotels. They feed them mostly from the thrown away kitchen scraps they get from garbage collection, but the pork they raise with a little chicken and goat is about all the meat they can afford. And the folks were largely forced into this life from Islamic persecution for not converting to Islam. This type of lifestyle works given an Orthodox understanding of the New Testament but would not work if these other sects defined the faith.

 

[The Liturgist]

Yeah it is interesting the number of Christian groups that have raised pork etc. There is an Egyptian Coptic group called "The Zabaleen" which basically translates to "garbage people" who have been the Garbage men of Cairo for probably the last 1000 years or so. While they make their living through recycling, but mostly from raising piglets that they sell to tourist resorts and fancy hotels. They feed them mostly from the thrown away kitchen scraps they get from garbage collection, but the pork they raise with a little chicken and goat is about all the meat they can afford. And the folks were largely forced into this life from Islamic persecution for not converting to Islam. This type of lifestyle works given an Orthodox understanding of the New Testament but would not work if these other sects defined the faith.

Indeed, they live in Muqattam, near Cairo, and had a famine when President Mubarak had all their pigs killed as a “precaution” against swine flu. They were also one of several Coptic dioceses exploited by some non-Orthodox clergy, but a new bishop, Abanoub, named for one of my favorite saints, St. Abanoub the boy martyr, was appointed a few years ago and restored Orthodoxy. The church in Muqattam was bizarre though as it had the appearance of a megachurch, and not the iconostasis and beautiful iconography and altar you expect to see in a Coptic Orthodox church.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

And I very much appreciate the discussion, too....

As I understand it @2PhiloVoid , there are 3 sets of Laws.

1. The Ceremonial Laws
2. The Moral Laws (the 10 Commandments)
3. The Health Laws.

I believe the KEY to understanding Acts 15, is to see that Acts 15 was a rebuttal to the Jewish Christian leaders, who were trying to force the new converts to accept the Ceremonial Law of Circumcision if they wanted to be accepted into the faith. It's not discussing the MORAL LAWS or the HEALTH LAWS (it does touch on a segment of the Dietary Laws that fall under the Health Laws). As far as I can tell, there are no references to the Ten Commandments (the MORAL LAW) in Acts 15. Can we conclude then, that because the TEN COMMANDMENTS were not mentioned as something that the Gentile converts must abide by, that they were FREE to MURDER, COMMIT ADULTERY, LIE, STEAL, BOW DOWN TO IDOLS, etc? Surely we wouldn't say that.... Instead we would say that when Gentiles were converted to the TRUTH, that it was a common understanding that part of what they were learning was to keep the Moral Law. Just as today, when we bring someone out of the world into the TRUTH, we teach them that being a Christian means you no longer steal, lie, commit adultery, etc.

Also, the Health Laws were not being discussed in Acts 15, other than confirming that the health law of not consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals was still binding. There are many more health laws that were not touched on.

"You must abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. If you do this, you will do well. Farewell.” Acts 15:29 (NLT)
​

There were 3 things that the Apostles believed needed to be taught to the new converts right from the beginning. Surely we can see the wisdom in not overwhelming new converts with too many things at one time. They narrowed down what they believed were the most important 3 things that new converts should accept before being allowed into fellowship. But surely, we wouldn't stop at that and say, "Those 3 things are all that matters, there is nothing more for them to learn." We should be learning and growing into the TRUTH, walking in the light on the ever narrowing path to Heaven more and more as time goes on.

Here is why these 3 things were so important:

​

1. "Abstain from eating food offered to idols." That was exactly why Daniel and his 3 friends refused to eat the food from the table of Nebuchadnezzar. One of my favorite authors says the following about that ~

A second consideration of these youthful captives was that the king always asked a blessing before his meals, and addressed his idols as deity. He set apart a portion of his food, and also a portion of his wine to be presented to the idol gods whom he worshiped. This act, according to their religious instruction, consecrated the whole to the heathen god. To sit at the table where such idolatry was practiced, Daniel and his three brethren deemed, would be a dishonor to the God of heaven. These four children decided that they could not sit at the king's table, to eat of the food placed there, or to partake of the wine, all of which had been dedicated to an idol god.... There was no presumption with these youth, but a firm love for truth and righteousness. They did not choose to be singular, but they must be, else they would corrupt their ways in the courts of Babylon.—
Manuscript 122, March 10, 1897.
​

2. "From consuming blood or the meat from strangled animals." I believe 2 Corinthians 6:17 sheds much light on this ~

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you..." 2 Corinthians 6:17.​

Blood and meat from strangled animals falls into the category of things that God has told us from the beginning were "unclean". Clearly Paul was confirming in the New Testament that there were STILL UNCLEAN things we as Christians needed to separate from. "Unclean things" have to do with food as well as with who we associate with and the activities we do. The same things that God told us are "unclean" in the OT are still unclean in the NT...and as Paul tells us, if we want to be received by God into fellowship with Him, we need to separate from those things, whatever they are. I'm sure that as the new converts were taught the TRUTH, teaching them the importance of taking care of their body, and that their body was the "temple of the Holy Spirit" included teaching them about which meats were CLEAN & UNCLEAN, and to abstain from the UNCLEAN MEATS.

3. "...and from sexual immorality." Licentiousness and sexual sin was rampant among the heathen. The Apostles knew how important it was to keep the moral standard high, in order to have a pure Church.

​

That was a very thoughtful (and interesting) exposition on this topic. I can see what you're saying and even though at the moment I can't say I'm convinced, you have given me pause to study the Scriptures more deeply on this subject and I will keep in mind your well stated points. Thank you for taking the time to write all of that out for me to further ponder over and to pray about.

Be blessed, sister!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yeah it is interesting the number of Christian groups that have raised pork etc. There is an Egyptian Coptic group called "The Zabaleen" which basically translates to "garbage people" who have been the Garbage men of Cairo for probably the last 1000 years or so. While they make their living through recycling, but mostly from raising piglets that they sell to tourist resorts and fancy hotels. They feed them mostly from the thrown away kitchen scraps they get from garbage collection, but the pork they raise with a little chicken and goat is about all the meat they can afford. And the folks were largely forced into this life from Islamic persecution for not converting to Islam. This type of lifestyle works given an Orthodox understanding of the New Testament but would not work if these other sects defined the faith.

... my jaw just drops at this information you've passed along. It's heart breaking to realize that this is the situation there in Cairo. I didn't know this, Pavel. Thanks for this bit of education. I'll keep it in mind.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

The church in Muqattam was bizarre though as it had the appearance of a megachurch,

That is because of Sharia law. The government imposed regulations concerning building new churches... even repairing church fixtures, but there is (or was) a church excavation loop hole

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Indeed, they live in Muqattam, near Cairo, and had a famine when President Mubarak had all their pigs killed as a “precaution” against swine flu. They were also one of several Coptic dioceses exploited by some non-Orthodox clergy, but a new bishop, Abanoub, named for one of my favorite saints, St. Abanoub the boy martyr, was appointed a few years ago and restored Orthodoxy. The church in Muqattam was bizarre though as it had the appearance of a megachurch, and not the iconostasis and beautiful iconography and altar you expect to see in a Coptic Orthodox church.

I noticed a video broad cast from this western Charismatic Protestant minister team a few years that I sometimes reference or link to. It gives a good view of the facilities and it is nice to hear people from that sort of tradition find something positive from that the Faith when typically such folks don't usually like such formal religious tradition in Christianity.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Calling them "OT Christians" is wrong. If they try to keep the law with the zeal of the Pharisees, all of the Jewish feasts and who will worship only on the Sabbath they are not Christians.

BTW, I don't know a single Messianic Jew who behaves in this manner. There are also "Christians" who don't have the faith described the Bible.

Actually, there is a good number here at CF.

 

[trophy33]

.
Are you suggesting to just delete Hebrews 8:10 and Jeremiah 31:33?

No, I am saying that when we say New Covenant, we mean the one Jesus established with his disciples during the Last Supper. There seems to be some misunderstanding about it from the SDA side.

Also, I am saying that you have no verse from the New Testament saying that Christians should keep weekly sabbath like the ancient Jews were instructed before Christ.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

No, I am saying that when we say New Covenant, we mean the one Jesus established with his disciples during the Last Supper. There seems to be some misunderstanding about it from the SDA side.

Also, I am saying that you have no verse from the New Testament saying that Christians should keep weekly sabbath like the ancient Jews were instructed before Christ.

It does however tell us that they gathered on the first day of the week:

Acts 20:7
Verse Concepts
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.

Source: 15 Bible verses about The First Day Of The Week