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Which of these eschatology houses will get washed away suddenly?

parousia70

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James 5:5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.


The way I go about things in general, when involving passages like this, where it's obvious that you go about it differently, even though I acknowledge that James was speaking to ppl alive 2000 years ago, can anything he said to them at the time also be applicable to future generations, which might include the day and time we are living in now?

For instance. the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Does this mean He only had long patience 2000 years ago and no longer has this long patience because that patience eventually ran out, thus no need for that long patience to expand beyond the day they were living in at the time?

Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Can the coming of the Lord also apply to future generations? Can it apply to us today, that we need to remain patient unto the coming of the Lord? If the coming of the Lord already happened in their day and time, what coming of the Lord are we still patiently waiting for today? Are we waiting in vain for a coming that is never going to happen because it already happened 2000 years ago?

As to these James was speaking to at the time, we do not know when any of them died. Assuming the coming of the Lord was only applicable to them, what happens if they died before this alleged coming ever took place? Does that mean James lied to some of them since they died while patiently awaiting the coming of the Lord, and that the Lord never came while they waited patiently, thus their waiting patiently was in vain?

I do not see those 3 things you mentioned as being the only options. I don't even see them being options at all. Unlike you, I choose not to interpret passages like this in a vacuum where it is obvious that some of it is applicable to more than just the audience being addressed at the time. Some passages though, are only applicable to those alive at the time, such as what happened in 70 AD. One can't apply those events to future generations as well. James 5:5-11 is not a passage like that, though.

Whoever it ALSO applies to, James' original audience can not be EXCLUDED form application, can they?

Before we can determine if, and who, it ALSO applies to, shouldn't we first work to discover HOW it applied to them?

How would you say this verse was applicable to them, back then?
Once we get that sorted we can turn to discovering who else it applied to, if anyone.
 
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sovereigngrace

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1.) should “In a little while” and “without delay” be understood literally or the complete opposite?

Hebrews 10:37 For, “In just a little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay.

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while
[Gr. mikron hosos hosos], and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Christians require patience in waiting for the Lord’s return. That is because it would take time!

The words “large,” “big,” “a long time,” “a short time” are all subject to the one talking, their perspective and the subject matter under discussion.

Preterists find themselves in the camp of the scoffers mocking the reality of, and the supposed delay in, the glorious climactic return of Christ.

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai]: with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

What is the focus here (and that of the rest of the NT)? Is it Titus or Jesus?

What is the promise? Is it AD70 or the final climactic return of Christ, which includes the general resurrection/judgment of the living and the dead and the introduction of the new perfect eternal state?

2.) James uses the perfect tense “has drawn near”. Did James believe jesus’ coming was literally soon or no?
James 5:8 You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming has drawn near.

James 5:7-9: Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh [Gr. eggizō - present active indicative]. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Christians require patience in waiting for the Lord’s return. That is because it would take time!

James, speaking 2000 years ago, testified that the coming of the Lord was approaching in the future. The reality of that had drawn near to the Lord’s disciple, or was impending for him back then. The approaching of Jesus return is indeed a past reality for James, as he has now left this earth and is now gone. But that was literally and experientially true for him then, as it is true for us today. We can therefore say the same in our day: “the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.” Eggizo is indeed a verb that is in the perfect tense, and thus it is a completed reality for James.

3.) Peter uses the perfect tense “has drawn near”. Did peter believe the end was near or no?
1 peter 4:7 7The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

So, the end of all things happened at the Preterist pivotal moment in history - the coming of Titus in AD70?

4.) did Jesus mean the generation standing in front of him or no?
Mark 13:30 30Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:23-51: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Jesus said in Mark 13:21-37: “And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:25-36: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Context proves that the phrase “this generation” relates to those alive before Christ’s one final future climactic coming. It has nothing to do with first century events or AD70. Jesus was talking about events preceding His climactic future coming at the end of this age.

5.) why shouldn’t the coming of Christ in judgement upon Israel in 66-70ad be understood in similar fashion to OT oracles where God came down from heaven on the clouds for national judgements?

The partial preterist simply argues that these imminent time statements refer to the coming of Christ in judgement upon in Israel in 70ad, with the Roman armies as his war hammer. It is also argued that these imminent time statements do not refer to the future still to come parousia of christ.

Why? Hello! Because the detail attributed to the coming of Christ has not happened and the NHNE have not arrived. Simple!
 
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parousia70

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That's nonsense! When Jesus comes to condemn them to the lake of fire you don't think that would fulfill the promise of Christ taking vengeance on them? Of course it will! Your thinking is too narrow. Do you not think those Thessalonian persecutors will have to stand before Christ to give an account of themselves? You better believe they will and it won't be pretty for them.

Here's where you are thinking too narrow.
The text says:
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

This can only mean one of two things.

If the Event of Jesus being "revealed with His mighty angels taking vengeance" has yet to take place, then the only conclusion one can arrive at is that the 1st century Thessalonian congregation Paul was speaking to MUST STILL TODAY be suffering persecution at the hands of the 1st century people who were troubling them, and their persecutors have not yet been re payed with Tribulation (2 Thess 1:6)

OR

The 1st century Congregation Paul was speaking to IS TODAY AT REST and no longer suffering persecution at the hands of their 1st century Persecutors.

Those are the only two options.

Which do you believe is true?

Remember, according to the text itself, the ONLY VEHICLE and ONLY TIME by which the Thessalonian congregation would get "rest" from their persecution is "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels".
It can not happen before that event or by any other means, if we are to believe the text.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Here's where you are thinking too narrow.
The text says:
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

This can only mean one of two things.

If the Event of Jesus being "revealed with His mighty angels taking vengeance" has yet to take place, then the only conclusion one can arrive at is that the 1st century Thessalonian congregation Paul was speaking to MUST STILL TODAY be suffering persecution at the hands of the 1st century people who were troubling them, and their persecutors have not yet been re payed with Tribulation (2 Thess 1:6)

OR

The 1st century Congregation Paul was speaking to IS TODAY AT REST and no longer suffering persecution at the hands of their 1st century Persecutors.

Those are the only two options.

Which do you believe is true?

Remember, according to the text itself, the ONLY VEHICLE and ONLY TIME by which the Thessalonian congregation would get "rest" from their persecution is "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels".
It can not happen before that event or by any other means, if we are to believe the text.
You forgot the option that I already explained to you. You're making it quite clear that you have no interest in taking my points into consideration and I no longer have any interest in taking yours into consideration, either. Agree to disagree.
 
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grafted branch

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Absolutely.
It's laughable that anyone would attempt to frame his theology as unorthodox.
His positions are entirely orthodox, and are indeed steeped in scriptural truth.
You posted a link some time ago to a Bible study Scott Hahn did. I listened to it several times, I didn’t agree with everything but didn’t think it could be considered unorthodox either. Maybe you could post the link again for those that want to examine it for themselves.
 
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parousia70

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Zao is life

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Is that only involving the raptured church then? Wouldn't one that has already died, thus presently in heaven, already see Him as He is? Yet, that passage says one doesn't do that until until His glorious appearing, and that you conclude this is yet to be fulfilled. I don't disagree that it's yet to be fulfilled, but at the same time, how do we reasonably square some of this with the fact that some would already see Him as He is, but that this passage says that doesn't happen until His glorious appearing, thus why I asked, is that only meaning in regards to the raptured church?

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The ones being addressed at the time, they would all be long gone and dead by now, and that He never appeared during their lifetimes. Were they lied to then? Meaning since they already see Him as He is if they are presently in heaven, they won't see Him as He is when He appears, because they already do that before He appears. You always bring up objectivity, so let's see you how objective you can be here since this particular topic is not about Premil vs Amil.
I don't think John ...

... I'm interrupting again.

I don't think John was thinking about those who have fallen asleep and are resting in Christ:

1 Corinthians 13
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall fully know even as I also am fully known.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Paul and John are both talking about those who are alive on earth looking for and eagerly anticipating His appearing. Those who have fallen asleep are resting in Him now, but I don't think even they can fully see Him as He is either, not until they are resurrected from the dead with a resurrected body like His:

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
 
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Zao is life

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I’m not the one calling him unChristian, friend.
And he flat out lied to me. Which I find to be quite nasty, and sinful. But that part is between him and God. It’s his sin to repent from, And I hope for his sake he does.

But to address your question, i love the challenge.
I wish He wouldn’t have decided not to respond. I believe his responses, your responses give our readers a great opportunity to see the contrast in our views.

i also enjoy learning the latest wiggle and get around your side looks to employ to prop up your non-fulfillment theories, Tho I must admit, as I enter my 20th year posting on Christian forums, I’ve pretty much seen them all so it’s rare to find a new and different one, but they do sprout up from time to time.

I also find it entertaining to watch you guys pat yourselves on the back. It’s cute.

Perhaps you might ask our friend Fullness if the Gentiles if he’s struggling to deal with the challenges and that is why he’s made the claim that he no longer wants to respond to my posts. Nothing screams “I can’t deal with the challenges you’re presenting“ any louder than ““I will not respond to your posts“

I very rarely ignore members, and when I do it’s because their attacks have turned personal, instead of challenging my views… I’m sure you can understand the correlation between someone not being able to deal with the challenges turning to attack the person making those challenges instead of addressing the challenges themselves. This is what Fullness of the Gentiles is beginning to do with me, and if he keeps it up he will definitely find himself on the business end of my ignore button. However, if he’d like to continue to engage me on the ideas, And drop the personal attacks, I would entertain accepting an apology and moving forward with the discussion.
I'm sorry to hear that things I said made you feel as though I was attacking you personally (which I was not, and was certainly not my intention to do).

After not responding to specific things I'd mentioned in reply to your posts, your posts addressed to me were coming one after the other (at least three in a row at one stage), not giving me a chance to respond, and each post was very long, and would have taken hours for me to respond to a quite number of the assertions you were making in them which are not biblically sound.

I hope you at least understand the reason for my frustration.

I wasn't attacking you personally, and I'm sorry to hear you feel that way (if you feel that my pointing out that your claim that "the proof that the law of Moses was no more was the destruction of the temple in A.D 70" is not Christian, because for all eternity the proof that the law was no more was Jesus' resurrection from the dead, was a personal attack, this is not the case, as your claim is simply not Christian doctrine, IMO).

The fact that though I wasn't attacking your personally I'm nevertheless sorry about the way you feel does not mean that I believe it's wise for me to engage with you again on any topic. So I'm requesting that you don't respond to any of my posts or quote me, so that I'm not tempted to respond, because I think it's better that I don't read your posts henceforth.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I've said this to you before, but apparently it needs repeating.

So you claim God is a manufacturer of loopholes and get-arounds?
I vehemently disagree.
I believe God is deliberate and trustworthy and does not mislead his people by placing little loopholes in His promises so He can later do exactly the opposite of what He promised..

God said, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake”
“Never again curse the ground...”

Do You simply spiritualize that away into meaningless Arglebargle?
Or, can God be trusted to mean what he says?

Wasn't that supposed to be a COMFORTING promise?

Are we Human beings supposed to find Comfort in the fact that God would never again destroy the world "with a flood", and instead he'll do it with an unquenchable Fire?

"Hey, Noah...Let me send your Dove back with a nice olive branch, and oh, by the way, here's a lovely, beautiful Rainbow to remind you that I Promise to SCORCH the earth into pile of smoke and ashes next time I wipe everyone out...since, you know, The Flood was a one time deal."

... Really?

There is no comfort in hearing you'll burn instead of drown..

I believe the promise to never again destroy the world was not simply a promise, caveat, loophole and get around, to just use a different, more heinous method of destruction "next time", rather I maintain it was indeed a promise of COMFORT, truly, to "NEVER AGAIN Curse the ground for Man's Sake" - which rules out a future global Fire from God... (IF we have faith that God is a trustworthy Promise KEEPER that is)

In order to make scripture fit your view you have to redact, cut out or completely disregard the myriad of scripture that teaches the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are unending and perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33) and that God PROMISED to NEVER AGAIN Curse the Ground for the sake of Man. (Genesis 8:21)

I need no such gymnastics... I let scripture conform my view.

Please do not lecture anyone about theological "gymnastics." That is what Extreme Preterism is.

God speaks to Noah just after he gets out of the ark where all flesh had just been destroyed by a flood. God speaks to him about this, "And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done" (Genesis 8:21).

How was this "done"? Was this by water, fire or war? Was it by water or fire?

By water - by a flood.

That is how God did it. He says that He will never again destroy everything living by a flood. This is the only message one can take out of this. If He had simply said "neither will I again smite any more every thing living" then you would have an argument. Even then, we would have to remove other explicit passages in Genesis and elsewhere that add further detail to such a un-definite statement. We would also have to disregard the many passages that show all the wicked being destroyed and judged at Christ's return. Thankfully we don't need to go searching elsewhere for clarity and more meat on the bones, it is all in the passage before us. The Lord carefully qualifies His statement saying: "as I have done."

Genesis 9:11-13 adds further support to this position, saying, "And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth."

Genesis 9:11-13 parallels Genesis 8:21. It repeats the same truth. These tell us that there will be no repeat of the deluge that enveloped the globe. When Jesus comes He is going to destroy all the wicked with fire. Never again will it be water.

What happened in Sodom and the antediluvian world will happen at Christ’s return, He will eliminate the wicked. God expressly “destroyed them all.” This is the end of the world. What follows is judgment and eternity.
 
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parousia70

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For the edification of our readers, there in fact is no agreement WITHIN ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY as to the timing of the end of the Old Covenant, and there is certainly no doctrinal edict that says one must believe one way or another about it, in order to be a Christian, in right standing with our Lord.

Nothing in the Historic creeds mentions any “we believe” requirement regarding the timing of the Old Covenant’s end, and we even have multiple CHRISTIAN denominations today that assert it is currently in place and functioning for the Jews.

Let’s recap:
Believing it ended at the Cross is a CHRISTIAN belief

Believing it ended at the Ascension is a CHRISTIAN belief

Believing it ended when the temple fell is a CHRISTIAN Belief.

Believing the old covenant is still in effect today for the Jews is a CHRISTIAN belief.

There is no requirement to be found anywhere in Orthodox Christianity, in scripture or history, that states the Christian MUST hold to a certain one of these views in order to BE Christian.
 
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parousia70

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Please do not lecture anyone about theological "gymnastics." That is what Extreme Preterism is.

Right. So I guess it’s only OK when YOU do it?

God speaks to Noah just after he gets out of the ark where all flesh had just been destroyed by a flood. God speaks to him about this, "And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done" (Genesis 8:21).

EVERY living thing?
Even you demonstrably don’t believe that is LITERAL.
Proving, again, That you are just as Free and Loose with your literal vs figurative renderings as you accuse anyone of being.

How was this "done"? Was this by water, fire or war? Was it by water or fire?

By water - by a flood.

Which, again, destroyed the fish, how?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Right. So I guess it’s only OK when YOU do it?



EVERY living thing?
Even you demonstrably don’t believe that is LITERAL.
Proving, again, That you are just as Free and Loose with your literal vs figurative renderings as you accuse anyone of being.



Which, again, destroyed the fish, how?

Your struggle is with the text. That is why you have to avoid so much Scripture, posts and arguments.
 
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Acts29

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Therefore, bearing in mind what we may be doing to our own minds when we answer these questions below,

When Jesus said "I am coming quickly [swiftly, suddenly, and without delay - 5035 tachý], and My reward is with Me, to give to each according as his work is.",

1. Did he mean "soon"; and if so,
2. How soon?
3, Or did He mean, "suddenly, and swiftly, and (when the time comes), without delay"?

The testimony of Jesus Christ IS the spirit of prophecy. He is coming soon WHEN the prophecy applies.

Revelation 1:5 To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us a kingdom of priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

When the saints are washed in His own blood, and has been made a kingdom of priests TO His Father, then Jesus is coming quickly. This indicates two events that come in quick succession. Once the first one takes place, then He is coming quickly. Joel also lays out the same pattern with the armies of the Lord going thru the land when the Day of the Lord is near, and then again once the Day of the Lord has come.

Joel 1:13 “Gird yourselves with sackcloth, and lament, you priests: mourn, you that serve at the altar: go in, sleep in sackcloth, you that minister to God: for the meat-offering and drink-offering are withheld from the house of your God. 14 Sanctify a fast, proclaim a solemn service, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of your God, and cry earnestly to Yehovah, 15 Alas, Alas, Alas for the day! For the day of Yehovah is near, [Near, not Here.] and it will come as trouble upon trouble.

2:1 “Sound the trumpet in Zion, make a proclamation in My holy mountain, and let all the inhabitants of the land be confounded: for the day of Yehovah is near; 2 for a day of darkness and gloominess is near, a day of cloud and mist: a numerous and strong people shall be spread upon the mountains as the morning; there has not been from the beginning one like it, and after it there shall not be again even to the years of many generations.

10 Before them the earth shall be confounded, and the sky shall be shaken: the sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their light. 11 And Yehovah shall utter His voice before His host: for His camp is very great: for the execution of His word is mighty. For the day of Yehovah is great, very glorious, and who shall be able to resist it?
 
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Zao is life

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Brothers and sisters who believe in Jesus, the following is central to your faith and extremely important for you to understand:

The most central part of the old system, which was the means of people having a covenant relationship with God through obedience to the law of Moses, was the worship of God in the temple, the inner part of which was divided between the holy court (room inside the structure) and the most holy place by a very thick and heavy material curtain, dividing the holy court into the most holy place (or holy of holies) and the holy place.

Only the priests were allowed into the holy place, and only the high priest was allowed beyond the veil into the holy of holies - and only once a year on the Day of Atonement, when after ritual washing ceremonies, he was to sprinkle the blood of an animal offered for the atonement of the people onto the mercy seat, and in the holy of holies.

This curtain was torn in two when Jesus died on the cross, shedding His own blood, and the greatness of the significance of this should never be overlooked nor underestimated by anyone who believes in Jesus, because the tearing of the veil in two when Jesus died on the cross

was the sign to all humanity from that moment on and forevermore that the way to God provided through the law of Moses was completely gone, and had been replaced by a new way:

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me." (John 14:6).

Explaining the spiritual application for us of this now redundant system, the author to the Hebrews wrote:

"Therefore, my brothers, having boldness to enter into the Holy of Holies by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He has consecrated for us through the veil, that is to say, His flesh; and having a High Priest over the house of God,
let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies having been washed with pure water.
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering (for He is faithful who promised)." (Hebrews 10:19-23).

God does not deal in partial measures with something that was for Him the central part of worship of God. He did not retain either a part of the law of Moses or the entire law for ANY people.

Any belief that the above is not the case is not like the sturdy rock structure that was the temple in Jerusalem, which took months of Roman battering-rams to penetrate its walls before it could be destroyed:

Any belief that the law of Moses continued beyond the death of Christ is nothing more than a sand castle which was washed away by the blood of Christ (for those who repent of the insult) before it even "became", and is worthy only to be trampled underfoot by the bathers in the ocean.

Jesus is our High Priest "who does not need, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice daily, first for his own sins and then for the people's sins. For He did this once for all, when He offered up Himself." (Hebrews 7:27).

"By this will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Hebrews 10:10).

To say that God "reserved His Law" that Jesus shed His blood to replace "in order to use it to curse the Jews" (and only the Jews) is a terrible insult to God and to His Christ:

"For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.: (Matthew 26:28).

Besides the insult to God and to His Christ, this particular belief also adds to the insult the sin of bigotry and racism, because it implies that the Jews were more evil than any other nation and were the only nation ever to be worthy of being cursed of God.

And yet God did not want their destruction. Jesus died and replaced the system of law to save them, as He did to save us:

"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness through the passing by of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God" (Romans 3:23-25).

So even though I created this thread, I will not argue anymore with those who believe or teach that the law of Moses was still in place after Jesus shed His blood. Whether we will believe only in Jesus and the fact that He is the way, the truth and the life, bringing us to God and to truth, forever replacing the law of Moses from the moment He died and the veil of the temple was torn in two, or whether we will mix our faith with faith in false doctrines or theologies, is the choice each person must make for himself, or herself.
 
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claninja

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The words “large,” “big,” “a long time,” “a short time” are all subject to the one talking, their perspective and the subject matter under discussion.

so, when the author of Hebrews (Hebrews 10:37) told his audience “in a little while” and “without delay” in regards to Christ’s coming, whose perspective is that from? Not the author’s?

it’s untenable to argue that the author of Hebrews believed it could be thousands of years away and yet tells his audience “in a little while” and “without delay”.

Your ducking around answering my question on Hebrews 10:37 by listing other verses from 2 Peter, does not address if the author Hebrews believed the coming of Christ was literally near or not.


Preterists find themselves in the camp of the scoffers mocking the reality of, and the supposed delay in, the glorious climactic return of Christ.

This makes zero sense. If the apostles believed and taught in a delayed return, even by thousands of years, why would scoffers scoff “where is his coming?”?

that’s like a 6 year old telling his friends, “my parent promised to by me a car on my 16th birthday”. At his 7th birthday party, his friends proceed to scoff “where is the promise of your car?”

James, speaking 2000 years ago, testified that the coming of the Lord was approaching in the future. The reality of that had drawn near to the Lord’s disciple, or was impending for him back then. The approaching of Jesus return is indeed a past reality for James, as he has now left this earth and is now gone. But that was literally and experientially true for him then, as it is true for us today. We can therefore say the same in our day: “the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.” Eggizo is indeed a verb that is in the perfect tense, and thus it is a completed reality for James.

Im not talking about philosophical loop holes. I’m talking about the actual definition of “has drawn near” in the perfect tense.

Did James believe the coming of Lord had literally drawn near?


So, the end of all things happened at the Preterist pivotal moment in history - the coming of Titus in AD70?

understanding Peter’s use of the “end of all things having drawn near” in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad is not some new understanding, nor is it exclusive to preterism:

Benson commentary
“Many commentators indeed understand St. Peter as speaking only of the end of the Jewish commonwealth, city, temple, and worship.”

matthew Henry concise commentary
“The destruction of the Jewish church and nation, foretold by our Saviour, was very near.”


Context proves that the phrase “this generation” relates to those alive before Christ’s one final future climactic coming. It has nothing to do with first century events or AD70. Jesus was talking about events preceding His climactic future coming at the end of this age.

this answer makes no effort to explain “how” context “proves” your point. You simply stating so doesn’t prove anything.

1.) the context of the olivet discourse is the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple

Matthew 24:1-2 1Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple.2But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

2.) if using scripture to interpret scripture helps us understand that the AOD (matthew 24:15) = Jerusalem being surrounded by armies(Luke 21:20-22), THEN Using the same principle tells us that “your coming and end of the age” = signs that they (destruction of city and temple) are fulfilled/about to take place.

Matthew 24:3 Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

Mark 13:4 Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to be fulfilled?”

luke 21:7 Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”

3.) it is a historical fact that Jesus’ generation lived through wars, false prophets, persecution, famines, pestilence, earthquakes, and the destruction of Jerusalem.

4.) the passages leading up to the olivet discourse discuss 1st century Jerusalems destruction:

a.) COMING of the vineyard owner to destroy the wicked tenants who killed his son: Matthew 21

b.) destruction of the original wedding guests and their city by the Lords army: Matthew 22

c.) Jesus prophesying that the generation of wicked Pharisees of the 1st century would face punishment for all the righteous blood shed: Matthew 23.

5.) thayers Greek lexicon has “this generation” meaning:

the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30;

6.) the belief that the olivet discourse (matthew 24:1-34) is completely fulfilled is NOT exclusive to preterism:

John Gill

“Till all these things were fulfilled; see Matthew 16:28 as many did, and as there is reason to believe they might, and must, since all these things had their accomplishment, in and about forty years after this: and certain it is, that John, one of the disciples of Christ, outlived the time by many years; and, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, many of the Jewish doctors now living, when Christ spoke these words, lived until the city was destroyed; as Rabban Simeon, who perished with it, R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others: this is a full and clear proof, that not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state.”


Why? Hello! Because the detail attributed to the coming of Christ has not happened and the NHNE have not arrived. Simple!

by that same logic:

1.) David lied and his enemies were not actually defeated because the detail of God descending from heaven didn’t literally occur.

2 samuel 22:10-11He parted the heavens and came down with dark clouds beneath His feet.11He mounted a cherub and flew; He soaredb on the wings of the wind.

2.) Egypt wasn’t destroyed by the Babylonians because God didn’t literally descend from heaven on a cloud

Isaiah 19:1 Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud
and comes to Egypt;

3.) Samaria wasn’t destroyed because God didn’t literally descend from heaven and melt mountains

Micah 1:3-4 For behold, the LORD comes forth from His dwelling place; He will come down and tread on the high places of the earth.The mountains will melt beneath Him,
 
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claninja

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Brothers and sisters who believe in Jesus, the following is central to your faith and extremely important for you to understand:

The most central part of the old system, which was the means of people having a covenant relationship with God through obedience to the law of Moses, was the worship of God in the temple, the inner part of which was divided between the holy court (room inside the structure) and the most holy place by a very thick and heavy material curtain, dividing the holy court into the most holy place (or holy of holies) and the holy place.

Only the priests were allowed into the holy place, and only the high priest was allowed beyond the veil into the holy of holies - and only once a year on the Day of Atonement, when after ritual washing ceremonies, he was to sprinkle the blood of an animal offered for the atonement of the people onto the mercy seat, and in the holy of holies.

This curtain was torn in two when Jesus died on the cross, shedding His own blood, and the greatness of the significance of this should never be overlooked nor underestimated by anyone who believes in Jesus, because the tearing of the veil in two when Jesus died on the cross

was the sign to all humanity from that moment on and forevermore that the way to God provided through the law of Moses was completely gone, and had been replaced by a new way:

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me." (John 14:6).

Explaining the spiritual application for us of this now redundant system, the author to the Hebrews wrote:

"Therefore, my brothers, having boldness to enter into the Holy of Holies by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He has consecrated for us through the veil, that is to say, His flesh; and having a High Priest over the house of God,
let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies having been washed with pure water.
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering (for He is faithful who promised)." (Hebrews 10:19-23).

God does not deal in partial measures with something that was for Him the central part of worship of God. He did not retain either a part of the law of Moses or the entire law for ANY people.

Any belief that the above is not the case is not like the sturdy rock structure that was the temple in Jerusalem, which took months of Roman battering-rams to penetrate its walls before it could be destroyed:

Any belief that the law of Moses continued beyond the death of Christ is nothing more than a sand castle which was washed away by the blood of Christ (for those who repent of the insult) before it even "became", and is worthy only to be trampled underfoot by the bathers in the ocean.

Jesus is our High Priest "who does not need, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice daily, first for his own sins and then for the people's sins. For He did this once for all, when He offered up Himself." (Hebrews 7:27).

"By this will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Hebrews 10:10).

To say that God "reserved His Law" that Jesus shed His blood to replace "in order to use it to curse the Jews" (and only the Jews) is a terrible insult to God and to His Christ:

"For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.: (Matthew 26:28).

Besides the insult to God and to His Christ, this particular belief also adds to the insult the sin of bigotry and racism, because it implies that the Jews were more evil than any other nation and were the only nation ever to be worthy of being cursed of God.

And yet God did not want their destruction. Jesus died and replaced the system of law to save them, as He did to save us:

"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness through the passing by of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God" (Romans 3:23-25).

So even though I created this thread, I will not argue anymore with those who believe or teach that the law of Moses was still in place after Jesus shed His blood. Whether we will believe only in Jesus and the fact that He is the way, the truth and the life, bringing us to God and to truth, forever replacing the law of Moses from the moment He died and the veil of the temple was torn in two, or whether we will mix our faith with faith in false doctrines or theologies, is the choice each person must make for himself, or herself.

While there is some truth in your post, I don’t think it’s as white and black as you make it out to be.

Was this precept from the law of Moses no longer in affect?


Acts 3:22-23 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’

Why would it matter if they had to flee on a sabbath?

Matthew 24:20 20Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.

why were the Christian jews still zealous for the customs and laws of Moses?

Acts 21:20-22 when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, 21and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. 22What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come

why did the old covenant still need to vanish, it was already removed?

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
 
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sovereigngrace

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While there is some truth in your post, I don’t think it’s as white and black as you make it out to be.

Was this precept from the law of Moses no longer in affect?


Acts 3:22-23 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’

Why would it matter if they had to flee on a sabbath?

Matthew 24:20 20Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.

why were the Christian jews still zealous for the customs and laws of Moses?

Acts 21:20-22 when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, 21and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. 22What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come

why did the old covenant still need to vanish, it was already removed?

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

AD70 was not the end of the old covenant. That occurred 40 years earlier. When Christ said "it is finished" on the cross that was the end of the old covenant arrangement. From a heavenly perspective the renting of the veil finished the temple sacrifices forever. Whilst Matthew doesn’t identify what Christ said before He gave up the ghost John does in 19:30: “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.”

The continued practice of the Jewish sacrifice system and the strict religious laws that the apostate Jewish religious leaders enforced after Christ's death did not in any way negate the abolition of the old covenant at the cross. To say otherwise is to fight with multiple NT Scripture.

The book of Hebrews shows the removal of the old covenant arrangement and its replacement by the new superior covenant. Hebrews 8:6 declares (before AD70): “now hath he (Christ) obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.”

Hebrews 8:7-8 explains (before AD70), “For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.”

The old covenant was faulty or defective. It had many limitations. It had to be replaced. Those who suggest it was still active and useful between Calvary and AD70 undermine the cross and fight with clear and repeated Scripture.

Albert Barnes contends: “it did not contain the ample provision for the pardon of sin and the salvation of the soul which was desirable. It was merely ‘preparatory’ to the Gospel.”

The Preachers Homiletical states: “Not merely ‘free from defect’, but ‘incomplete’, unable fully to meet man’s case. The old system was complete enough for its limited sphere and purpose: fault was found with its limitations.”

John Wesley explained: “For if the first had been faultless - If that dispensation had answered all God's designs and man's wants, if it had not been weak and unprofitable unable to make anything perfect, no place would have been for a second.”

Scripture (before AD70) describes the old covenant sacrificial system as that which is done away (2 Corinthians 3:11) and that which is abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.”

The sad thing is: many Christians today speak on this subject as if the cross never happened. They talk as if the old covenant still exists and is still relevant today or in the future. They fail to see that it has been eternally removed and the new covenant has replaced it. This is why they get messed up when they get to this subject. They want to go back to the old imperfect arrangement or they want Israel to go back to the old imperfect arrangement. They yearn for an old-covenant-type physical kingdom that is focused on the natural, temporal and earthly.

Equally, they want to elevate Israel to a place that they no longer own in the New Testament. Many want to render circumcision (the sign of the old covenant) meritorious or advantageous when the New Testament says it avails nothing.

The fact is, on the authority of God’s Word, we are never going back to the shadow, the type and the abolished. The reason being: God was, and is, fully and eternally satisfied with the new covenant. It doesn’t need modified, added to or replaced. The cross did it all!

The old covenant was only a signpost to the new covenant – the substance, fulfilment and the reality. It simply pointed to the new covenant arrangement that was focused on the real Jerusalem (the heavenly), not Christ-rejecting carnal Jerusalem. The old has been eternally abolished.

Hebrews 10:1 (before AD70) makes it perfectly clear, “For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things."

The old Jewish temple in Jerusalem, which is now destroyed, served as an impressive physical, yet, imperfect temporal type of the living temple of God – the Lord Jesus Christ and His mystical body. It was the focal-point for the whole Judaic sacrificial system for many centuries.

Paul the Apostle addresses this in Galatians 4:9-10 (before AD70), asking, “now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.”

The New Testament writer is referring here to the old covenant ceremonial calendar. His contention is simple: why would a liberated Christian want to go back to the old elaborate abolished Jewish arrangement? This phrase “days, and months, and times, and years” refer to the many holy days, feasts and festivals that Israel had to carefully maintain until Jesus died on the cross. All of these were a heavy bondage to them. Paul despaired because some believers were looking back to the bondage of the old that was gone. This is so opposed to the freedom that comes in Christ.

The phrase “Ye observe” is one Greek word paratēreō meaning you ‘assiduously observe’ or you ‘painstakingly observe’. The word translated “weak” here (asthenes) means strengthless or impotent. The word interpreted “beggarly” in this passage (ptochos) relates to the condition of a pauper. It is derived from the original word ptoeo meaning fallen or flown away. The word “bondage,” which relates to the old Judaic system, is the word douleuo, meaning to be a slave.

As we piece these original Greek words together, we start to get a real sense of how the New Testament viewed the whole Old Testament ceremonial law. The old covenant ritualistic system has been abolished because it is expressly impotent, impoverished and slavish’. The old covenant could not remove sin. It could never eradicate a guilty conscious. It was destitute. It has fallen and flown away. It has been rendered redundant. It is obsolete!

It has no ongoing purpose in the plan of God because of its weakness. It could never secure eternal salvation because it was not an eternal covenant. It had an expiration date. The coming in of the new perfect covenant removed the old imperfect system. When Christ came, He introduced “the everlasting covenant,” thus making the old temporal system useless. The shadow simply pointed to the substance.

Why would God ever want to bring back an insolvent and ineffective religious system that has been replaced by a perfect arrangement?

Colossians 2:14 (before AD70) plainly declares, speaking of these Old Testament ordinances and what happened at Calvary: “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

The Greek word for “blotting out” here is exaleiphō meaning: ‘to wipe off, wipe away, to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out’

Q. When did/will the "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances" occur?
A. Christ "took it out of the way" by "nailing it to his cross.”

These ordinances embraced the old covenant civil, ceremonial and ecclesiastical law. They were finished at the cross. When Christ made that final sacrifice for sin He satisfied all God’s holy demands for sin and uncleanness and thus Christ became the final propitiation and substitution for the sinner.

Colossians 2:16-17 (before AD70) continues, keeping on the same theme: “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”

The Greek word translated “holyday” here is heorte meaning a festival or feast. The normally precise KJV should probably have used feast or festival here rather than holyday because out of 27 mentions of this word in the New Testament it is interpreted “feast” in all of them apart from here.

New American Standard puts it like this: “Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day -- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.”

The Living Bible says, “So don't let anyone criticize you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating Jewish holidays and feasts or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these were only temporary rules that ended when Christ came. They were only shadows of the real thing-of Christ himself.”

Paul is saying here that the old covenant feasts and festivals simply served as types and shadows of things that were to come. They looked forward to the new covenant arrangement and the reality and substance in Christ. The Jews of Ezekiel’s day and Zechariah’s day would never have understood this.

Colossians 2:20-22 (before AD70) adds, summing up the new covenant freedom: “Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, whyare ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?”

The phrase “are ye subject to ordinances” is interpreted from the lone Greek word dogmatizo, which literally means to submit to ceremonially rule. Christianity took us completely away from the bondage of the old Mosaic ceremonial law. These festivals were filled with numerous ordinances and blood sacrifices that had to be stringently observed.

Speaking of these impotent religious ordinances, Scriptures counsels: “Touch not; taste not; handle not.” This couldn’t be clearer!

Matthew Henry adds: “Christians are freed by Christ from the ritual observances of Moses's law, and delivered from that yoke of bondage which God himself had laid upon them. Subjection to ordinances, or human appointments in the worship of God, is highly blamable, and contrary to the freedom and liberty of the Gospel.”

Adam Clarke explains: “all the rites and ceremonies of the Jewish religion now perish, having accomplished the end of their institution; namely, to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.”

Romans 15:6-7 (before AD70) tells us: One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.”

The strict religious insistence on observing precise sacred days and the keeping of the old arrangement is exposed here as erroneous. Under the new covenant we are at liberty to worship God anywhere at any time, and it is totally acceptable unto God.
 
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grafted branch

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While there is some truth in your post, I don’t think it’s as white and black as you make it out to be.

Was this precept from the law of Moses no longer in affect?


Acts 3:22-23 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’

Why would it matter if they had to flee on a sabbath?

Matthew 24:20 20Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.

why were the Christian jews still zealous for the customs and laws of Moses?

Acts 21:20-22 when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, 21and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. 22What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come

why did the old covenant still need to vanish, it was already removed?

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
One other thing to consider about the veil being torn and why it’s not such a clear cut of the law is that Jesus has power to forgive sins prior to the cross (Matthew 9:2-6). So would it have been appropriate for someone who had their sins forgiven to continue obeying the law with sacrifices prior to the veil being torn? I personally wouldn’t think so but the scriptures are silent on this.
 
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sovereigngrace

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so, when the author of Hebrews (Hebrews 10:37) told his audience “in a little while” and “without delay” in regards to Christ’s coming, whose perspective is that from? Not the author’s?

it’s untenable to argue that the author of Hebrews believed it could be thousands of years away and yet tells his audience “in a little while” and “without delay”.

Your ducking around answering my question on Hebrews 10:37 by listing other verses from 2 Peter, does not address if the author Hebrews believed the coming of Christ was literally near or not.

Your arguments are self-defeating. Would any non-Extreme Preterist who had no theological agenda to push consider 40 years from a human perspective “a little while” and “without delay”? Of course not. That is a long time in human terms. Imagine telling a young man of 21 years that he will get his wife in “a little while” and “without delay.” Then at 61 she finally arrives. Imagine a boss telling an employee that they will be getting a big rise in “a little while” and “without delay” and it not arriving for another 40 years. That would be absurd in human terms! 40 years is a very long time from a human perspective. For Extreme Preterists to deny this is denying reality!

Christians require patience in waiting for the Lord’s return. That is because it would take time!

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while
[Gr. mikron hosos hosos], and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

You did not even address my main point in regard to Hebrews 10:36–37. Christians require patience in waiting for the Lord’s return. That is because it would take time!

The same applies to James 5:7-9: Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh [Gr. eggizō - present active indicative]. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Christians require patience in waiting for the Lord’s return. That is because it would take time!

This makes zero sense. If the apostles believed and taught in a delayed return, even by thousands of years, why would scoffers scoff “where is his coming?”?

that’s like a 6 year old telling his friends, “my parent promised to by me a car on my 16th birthday”. At his 7th birthday party, his friends proceed to scoff “where is the promise of your car?”

First of all: you didn't even address my argument. Denial means nothing. As for your illustration: I do not have a clue what you're talking about.

Im not talking about philosophical loop holes. I’m talking about the actual definition of “has drawn near” in the perfect tense.
Did James believe the coming of Lord had literally drawn near?

In human terms, 40 years is a very long time, and 2000 years is a very long time. From God's perspective, this is a very short time. So, your argument against the orthodox position can also be used to negate your beliefs. The reality is: the end was drawing nigh for James as it is for us. Not a difficult concept to grasp if you have no false theological paradigm to justify.

understanding Peter’s use of the “end of all things having drawn near” in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad is not some new understanding, nor is it exclusive to preterism:
Benson commentary
“Many commentators indeed understand St. Peter as speaking only of the end of the Jewish commonwealth, city, temple, and worship.”

matthew Henry concise commentary
“The destruction of the Jewish church and nation, foretold by our Saviour, was very near.”

Every time your position is exposed and refuted you have to run to some commentator and hide behind (or misrepresent and misapply) their comments. This is a common trait with Extreme Preterists. Parousia70 does this often.

this answer makes no effort to explain “how” context “proves” your point. You simply stating so doesn’t prove anything.

1.) the context of the olivet discourse is the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple
Matthew 24:1-2 1Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple.2But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

2.) if using scripture to interpret scripture helps us understand that the AOD (matthew 24:15) = Jerusalem being surrounded by armies(Luke 21:20-22), THEN Using the same principle tells us that “your coming and end of the age” = signs that they (destruction of city and temple) are fulfilled/about to take place.

Matthew 24:3 Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

Mark 13:4 Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to be fulfilled?”

luke 21:7 Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”

3.) it is a historical fact that Jesus’ generation lived through wars, false prophets, persecution, famines, pestilence, earthquakes, and the destruction of Jerusalem.

4.) the passages leading up to the olivet discourse discuss 1st century Jerusalems destruction:

a.) COMING of the vineyard owner to destroy the wicked tenants who killed his son: Matthew 21

b.) destruction of the original wedding guests and their city by the Lords army: Matthew 22

c.) Jesus prophesying that the generation of wicked Pharisees of the 1st century would face punishment for all the righteous blood shed: Matthew 23.

5.) thayers Greek lexicon has “this generation” meaning:

the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30;

6.) the belief that the olivet discourse (matthew 24:1-34) is completely fulfilled is NOT exclusive to preterism:

John Gill

“Till all these things were fulfilled; see Matthew 16:28 as many did, and as there is reason to believe they might, and must, since all these things had their accomplishment, in and about forty years after this: and certain it is, that John, one of the disciples of Christ, outlived the time by many years; and, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, many of the Jewish doctors now living, when Christ spoke these words, lived until the city was destroyed; as Rabban Simeon, who perished with it, R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others: this is a full and clear proof, that not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state.”

This is all a big distraction away from what we were talking about and a smokescreen to conceal the facts. I refer you back to my last post which rebuts your reasoning.

by that same logic:

1.) David lied and his enemies were not actually defeated because the detail of God descending from heaven didn’t literally occur.
2 samuel 22:10-11He parted the heavens and came down with dark clouds beneath His feet.11He mounted a cherub and flew; He soaredb on the wings of the wind.

2.) Egypt wasn’t destroyed by the Babylonians because God didn’t literally descend from heaven on a cloud

Isaiah 19:1 Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud
and comes to Egypt;

3.) Samaria wasn’t destroyed because God didn’t literally descend from heaven and melt mountains

Micah 1:3-4 For behold, the LORD comes forth from His dwelling place; He will come down and tread on the high places of the earth.The mountains will melt beneath Him,

I do not know what you're trying to say here. It is as clear as mud.
 
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