The conversion of St. Saul

SkyWriting

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Hi @SkyWriting

Soooooo, because the Scriptures say that Jesus is the light of the world, you gather from that that he wouldn't blind someone temporarily for his purposes?

OK.

God bless,
Ted
100% absolutely would not blind anybody.
It would not even be possible to go against His nature and blind a person. For any reason.

Lets consider Jesus harming anyone, in any way, for any reason at all. Or even causing discomfort. Use your thinking cap.

If 20 passages annihilating the concept don't do it for you...then guess what?

Lets see what I left out:

Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Colossians 1:12-14
Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Ephesians 6:11-12
Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Ephesians 5:8
For at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light

John 8:12-20
Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” So the Pharisees said to him, “You are bearing witness about yourself; your testimony is not true.” Jesus answered, “Even if I do bear witness about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going, but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me.

John 1:7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.

John 1:1-51
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. ...

Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Isaiah 48:11
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Blinder of infidels)

Psalm 27:1
Of David. The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
 
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Carl Emerson

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100% absolutely would not blind anybody.
It would not even be possible to go against His nature and blind a person. For any reason.

Lets consider Jesus harming anyone, in any way, for any reason at all. Or even causing discomfort. Use your thinking cap.

If 20 passages annihilating the concept don't do it for you...then guess what?

Lets see what I left out:

Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Colossians 1:12-14
Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Ephesians 6:11-12
Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Ephesians 5:8
For at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light

John 8:12-20
Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” So the Pharisees said to him, “You are bearing witness about yourself; your testimony is not true.” Jesus answered, “Even if I do bear witness about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going, but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me.

John 1:7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.

John 1:1-51
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. ...

Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Isaiah 48:11
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Blinder of infidels)

Psalm 27:1
Of David. The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

Deut 28
27 “The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, the festering rash, and with scabies, from which you cannot be healed. 28 The Lord will strike you with insanity, blindness, and with confusion of mind; 29 and you will be groping about at noon, just as a person who is blind gropes in the darkness, and you will not be successful in your ways; but you will only be oppressed and robbed all the time, with no one to save you.
 
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SkyWriting

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Deut 28
27 “The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, the festering rash, and with scabies, from which you cannot be healed. 28 The Lord will strike you with insanity, blindness, and with confusion of mind; 29 and you will be groping about at noon, just as a person who is blind gropes in the darkness, and you will not be successful in your ways; but you will only be oppressed and robbed all the time, with no one to save you.
WOW! Excellent sleuthing!

I'm not sure we can apply it to Pauls conversion ...but good work!

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 28 - King James Version
 
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hedrick

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He was never in the presence of Jesus.
I consider that important in how any Christian should act and apply what they know.
This leaves him unqualified for some things. Paul is not Jesus.
This seems to have been an argument during Paul’s life. His response was that Christ appeared to him, so he actually had been in his presence, and was personally commissioned by him.
 
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miamited

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Hi @SkyWriting

Lets consider Jesus harming anyone, in any way, for any reason at all. Or even causing discomfort. Use your thinking cap.

I'm curious why you would think that Jesus temporarily blinding someone to serve a purpose would be 'harming' anyone. He didn't ruin the man. He restored his sight without any harm whatsoever befalling Saul. Saul even had companions with him at the time to help him through the temporary condition. But, I see that you've certainly convinced yourself that your position is the truth and that's obviously all that matters to you. That's perfectly OK with me. There are a lot of 'christians' that don't agree with me and a lot of 'christians' that I don't agree with. You are one of the latter.

You and I have a different understanding of the purpose and veracity of the Scriptures.

I did just want to add my apologies. I got onto this thread by following a link under the 'New Threads' column and didn't notice until now that I was in the 'liberal' christian beliefs section. I don't belong here. Please accept my apologies.

God bless,
Ted
 
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hedrick

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Hi @SkyWriting



I'm curious why you would think that Jesus temporarily blinding someone to serve a purpose would be 'harming' anyone. He didn't ruin the man. He restored his sight without any harm whatsoever befalling Saul. Saul even had companions with him at the time to help him through the temporary condition. But, I see that you've certainly convinced yourself that your position is the truth and that's obviously all that matters to you. That's perfectly OK with me. There are a lot of 'christians' that don't agree with me and a lot of 'christians' that I don't agree with. You are one of the latter.

You and I have a different understanding of the purpose and veracity of the Scriptures.

I did just want to add my apologies. I got onto this thread by following a link under the 'New Threads' column and didn't notice until now that I was in the 'liberal' christian beliefs section. I don't belong here. Please accept my apologies.

God bless,
Ted
FYI, as far as I know this isn’t a common liberal position.
 
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miamited

Ted
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FYI, as far as I know this isn’t a common liberal position.
@hedrick

That may well be, but I'm not liberal in any way shape or form when it comes to belief in the veracity of Scriptures. Believing that every word contained within is there by the power of the Holy Spirit, as Paul wrote. So, I don't qualify as a contributing member on this forum.

Sometimes I read through the 'New Threads' column and something piques my interest and so I'll click on it to read. I have often in the past found myself on forums that I honestly don't qualify for. It used to happen a lot with the posts by @Michie, but I've now conditioned myself to know that her posts are generally in the OBOB Catholic, and so I try to stay our of their conversations.

In the past, @Michie has been gracious in encouraging me to converse with them, but I know that most of my posts will be in disagreement, as is here, because I don't believe in that 'definition' of christian doctrine and dogma.

I'm a YEC, literal Scripture believer. Yes, I believe the earth and universe to be about 6,000 years old. That the sun did stand still in the sky in the days of Joshua. That the entire globe was flooded. That a literal deep blue sea did part. That a baby was born of a woman who had never had sexual relations with a man. Along with about 3 dozen other 'preposterous' events that the Scriptures recount for us.

God bless,
Ted
 
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SkyWriting

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Hi @SkyWriting
I'm curious why you would think that Jesus temporarily blinding someone to serve a purpose would be 'harming' anyone. He didn't ruin the man. He restored his sight without any harm whatsoever befalling Saul. Saul even had companions with him at the time to help him through the temporary condition. But, I see that you've certainly convinced yourself that your position is the truth and that's obviously all that matters to you. That's perfectly OK with me. There are a lot of 'christians' that don't agree with me and a lot of 'christians' that I don't agree with. You are one of the latter.
You and I have a different understanding of the purpose and veracity of the Scriptures.
I did just want to add my apologies. I got onto this thread by following a link under the 'New Threads' column and didn't notice until now that I was in the 'liberal' christian beliefs section. I don't belong here. Please accept my apologies.
God bless,
Ted

That's not correct. Non-liberals are free to discuss matters freely. They just need to be open minded about allowing others to have differing views. Unlike the conservative forums where differing views are automatically condemned to hellfire for eternity.
 
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SkyWriting

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Hi @SkyWriting
I'm curious why you would think that Jesus temporarily blinding someone to serve a purpose would be 'harming' anyone.

I covered that. Jesus would never blind anyone. It's not in His DNA. It never happened.

Let me double check on that though. Yup, just as I thought.

Ecclesiastes 2:13
Then I saw that there is more gain in wisdom than in folly, as there is more gain in light than in darkness.

1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

John 8:12
Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

John 1:5
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Psalm 119:105
Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.

Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

Ephesians 5:8
For at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light

Matthew 5:14
“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Psalm 27:1
Of David. The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

John 12:35
So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going.

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

John 9:5
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Isaiah 42:16
And I will lead the blind in a way that they do not know, in paths that they have not known I will guide them. I will turn the darkness before them into light, the rough places into level ground. These are the things I do, and I do not forsake them.

Matthew 4:16
The people dwelling in darkness have seen a great light, and for those dwelling in the region and shadow of death, on them a light has dawned.”

Isaiah 58:8
Then shall your light break forth like the dawn, and your healing shall spring up speedily; your righteousness shall go before you; the glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.

Luke 11:34
Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eye is healthy, your whole body is full of light, but when it is bad, your body is full of darkness.

Psalm 119:130
The unfolding of your words gives light; it imparts understanding to the simple.

James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

Ephesians 5:14
For anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says, “Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

John 12:36
While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them.

John 1:4
In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Matthew 5:14-16
“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Psalm 36:9
For with you is the fountain of life; in your light do we see light.

1 Thessalonians 5:5
For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.

Psalm 18:28
For it is you who light my lamp; the Lord my God lightens my darkness.

1 John 1:5-7
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

Isaiah 60:1
Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the Lord has risen upon you.

Acts 13:47
For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, “‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

Isaiah 49:6
He says: “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel; I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”

John 3:19-21
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

Isaiah 9:2
The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.
 
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This seems to have been an argument during Paul’s life. His response was that Christ appeared to him, so he actually had been in his presence, and was personally commissioned by him.

I was referring to learning from Jesus in action and learning his teachings through demonstration. Having a dream about Jesus would not qualify as valuable except for maybe a police lineup.

It's astounding to me that the person who claims to know how Christians should behave is the one person who had no training whatsoever by Jesus.
 
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SkyWriting

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Hi @SkyWriting

I'm curious why you would think that Jesus temporarily blinding someone to serve a purpose...

It wouldn't serve any purpose. If it did it would be a common practice for God.
If not for God, then churches would blindfold leaders on a regular basis to confirm them for service.
See?
The idea is so absurd that even cult church leaders don't practice blindfolding people.
If ANYONE thought it was legit, somebody would copy the idea of blindfolding converts.

Children in Sunday school would all have blindfolds to re-enact Pauls conversion.

But everyone knows in their heart, Jesus would never blind someone.
Even blindfolding people is dangerous.
 
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Carl Emerson

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WOW! Excellent sleuthing!

I'm not sure we can apply it to Pauls conversion ...but good work!

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 28 - King James Version

You acknowledge the significance of this passage yet continue to claim that God doesn't do what it clearly says.

Deut 28
27 “The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, the festering rash, and with scabies, from which you cannot be healed. 28 The Lord will strike you with insanity, blindness, and with confusion of mind; 29 and you will be groping about at noon, just as a person who is blind gropes in the darkness, and you will not be successful in your ways; but you will only be oppressed and robbed all the time, with no one to save you.
 
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hedrick

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I was referring to learning from Jesus in action and learning his teachings through demonstration. Having a dream about Jesus would not qualify as valuable except for maybe a police lineup.

It's astounding to me that the person who claims to know how Christians should behave is the one person who had no training whatsoever by Jesus.
Yes. While Paul says a lot that in some abstract sense are equivalent to what Jesus says, they come from a different context. And he almost never cites actual teaching or actions by Jesus, except his death snd resurrection.
 
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miamited

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Hi @SkyWriting

If it did it would be a common practice for God.

How many seas has God parted for His purpose of saving His people? How many nights have all the firstborn of every family been killed in the night in an entire city for His purpose of showing His glory to His people? How many children have been born without the aid of human sperm for God to accomplish His purpose? Really? You're going to go with anything that God or Jesus does for their purpose is going to be a common practice? Can you feed me some web stories about how much water has been turned into wine within moments?

Again I apologize for crashing this thread as one who doesn't subscribe to the theology espoused in these threads, but I really have a hard time swallowing the cow dung tales that are being told about the God I love and the veracity of His Scriptures.

I really would appreciate your answering the questions I've put to you about the commonness of the the things that God/Jesus does to serve their purposes.

God bless,
Ted
 
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Hi @SkyWritingHow many seas has God parted for His purpose of saving His people? How many nights have all the firstborn of every family been killed in the night in an entire city for His purpose of showing His glory to His people? How many children have been born without the aid of human sperm for God to accomplish His purpose? Really? You're going to go with anything that God or Jesus does for their purpose is going to be a common practice? Can you feed me some web stories about how much water has been turned into wine within moments? Again I apologize for crashing this thread as one who doesn't subscribe to the theology espoused in these threads, but I really have a hard time swallowing the cow dung tales that are being told about the God I love and the veracity of His Scriptures.I really would appreciate your answering the questions I've put to you about the commonness of the the things that God/Jesus does to serve their purposes.God bless,Ted

You are welcome to challenge all my wacky views. In fact, most of them are the result of doing all the legwork that came from liberal challenges when I was YEC. They are born out of my scholarly defending of my conservative views. So again. Thank you.

#1. Computer models have confirmed that strong steady winds could have opened up a land bridge across the sea. For more details on how miracles physically, actually, really work, I detail this in my sig file under "Answered prayer".

#2. That's a pretty weird story. I think God got the blame/credit for an unusual virus. But we've seen with Covid that children can be nearly immune to the original corvid virus. This might leave only the oldest children effected. It's quite possible that more than one person per household died in the night and that multiple nights were involved. But the story was retold by storytellers who get more attention the more interesting the story is told. Have you ever known any storyteller to modify a story to make it sound more dramatic? Me neither.

#3 I personally, do not worship the Virgin Mary, her story, or hold her in equal standing to Jesus.
8d49490ccba1489e1fe7b24d6289f785.jpg

#4 You're going to go with anything that God or Jesus does for their purpose is going to be a common practice?

Yes. And I illustrated the absurdity of Jesus blinding somebody by my observation of 2000 years of people reading the story and not one example of anybody using blindness as a symbolic gesture for transformation.

I could list over a hundred traditions that groups have latched onto in the last thousand years and not one blindfolds people to honor or remember the blinding of Paul. So it's not just me who sweeps this idea under the rug.

At my home church the "washing of feet" is a pleasant tradition that the church employs to remind of of serving others.
jesus-washing-apostles-feet-39588-wallpaper%201.jpg


But nobody ever has added a blindfold tradition to welcome new Christians.
It's that dumb.
profileIcon_4yz2201kprb21.jpg
 
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SkyWriting

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Hi @SkyWriting
Can you feed me some web stories about how much water has been turned into wine within moments?
God is not capable of violating the known laws of physics because He designed them that way. But there is some evidence that reality can be changed by the intent of the observer. One explanation that's easier to swallow, God is the supreme master of changing people perceptions of reality.

Science minded people won't like that one. They will claim that God could not fool them into getting drunk on water, or grape juice.
 
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SkyWriting

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Hi @SkyWriting

Soooooo, because the Scriptures say that Jesus is the light of the world, you gather from that that he wouldn't blind someone temporarily for his purposes?

In about 30 passages...yup.
 
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SkyWriting

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You acknowledge the significance of this passage yet continue to claim that God doesn't do what it clearly says.

Deut 28
27 “The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, the festering rash, and with scabies, from which you cannot be healed. 28 The Lord will strike you with insanity, blindness, and with confusion of mind; 29 and you will be groping about at noon, just as a person who is blind gropes in the darkness, and you will not be successful in your ways; but you will only be oppressed and robbed all the time, with no one to save you.

You are not quoting the statement you are challenging for... some...reason.
I'm guessing because you have changed my statement.



(Jesus)
100% absolutely would not blind anybody.
It would not even be possible to go against His nature and blind a person. For any reason.

Lets consider Jesus harming anyone, in any way, for any reason at all. Or even causing discomfort. Use your thinking cap.
 
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You are not quoting the statement you are challenging for... some...reason.
I'm guessing because you have changed my statement.

Really ???

What does that mean?

Lets recap...

You said God doesn't blind people because you claim it is against His nature.

I bought to your attention His inspired Word from Deut 28 showing that part of His action under the Curse of the Law was to render individuals blind.

You have a choice to believe what you want to about Him - or yield to His inspiration.
 
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