Narcissism..

MehGuy

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Are you a narcissist? Have you ever been hurt by one? Did you grow up with a narcissistic parent? Significant other? Do you believe narcissism is due more to nature or nurture? A mix between the two? Evolutionary origins? How much sympathy and tolerance do you have towards them? Do you find yourself attracted to men or women who exhibit this trait?
 

Pavel Mosko

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wow you hit on one of my pet topics. No not a Narcist, I have run across a few and they tend to make a lifelong impression on you, kind of like a literal impression as far as psychological scars. I met two pastors that I think had that kind of orientation. And this has been a pet topic because of studying psychology, wanting to be a minister as well and seeing how certain people can take advantage of various Bible verses and Christian culture. I also have a friend that was abused by a wife for years and divorced her and we realized with her behavior etc. that she likely was a narcist.


Besides that I spoke out against a Charismatic Christian woman You-tuber who claimed to be a "prophet" who I also believe had NPD. She could be very abusive with her followers chewing them out, guilting them for being "stingy" actually suggesting that they might fall prey to some curse for not adequately supporting her.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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In fact, I posted this yesterday in a thread about "False Prophets"


I have seen some stuff out of the Prophetic movement in the Charismatic movement that has caused me some concern. Overall though I have been more concerned with people who have things like Narcistic Personality Disorder and other kinds of related disorders taking advantage of certain Bible passages and Christian culture etc. I encountered 2 pastors who I think had an orientation like that in my past and it was very educational to say the least.

Help!, My Pastor is a Narcissist


For that I note a few things to beware of when dealing with such people even when you think you got them "dead to rights" these little tricks they do to bamboozle you.


1) People who call you to have strict accountability but kind of do whatever they want because they are "the shepherd", "have the anointing" etc. Our relationships including in the Church should be a two way street and not a one way street where leadership is exempt because they are a special chosen person.


2) Motive Questioning to side step problems. In Philippians saint Paul said he was OK with people preaching the Gospel for selfish gain, or to get him in trouble with the authorities etc. because "at least the Gospel is being preached". Anyway Biblical truth is valuable no matter what the motivation but I point this out because of motive questioning as a cheap tactic to derail and distract you by such people.


3) The use of the "Go to your brother in Secret" gospel verse claimed when you are complaining about stuff they are doing in public! This is another cheap trick that can easily bamboozle someone confronting such folks for their very blatant and often open misdeeds if they are not prepared for it.


4) If you really got them locked in they will probably push your buttons if you are prone to empathy saying "That you judged them etc." and acting like they have severe hurt feelings etc. which will suck you in if you are Mercy gift etc. Be careful of this. It is best to not overplay or exaggerate any claims you make against, and be as professional as possible when you first deal with them. But beware, they can really pull at your heart strings and will use this as there last ditch attempt to put you under their thumb. (They however are not very smart, and will immediately gloat over such a victory which may help to wake you up that you were manipulated).
 
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Mark Quayle

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'Narcissism' is a funny word. In the same way that I might say, "I have the subtle musk of the Caribbean Islands", and, "you could probably use a shower...", and "HE STINKS!", I can say that I have confidence, and you are stuck on yourself, but HE IS A NARCISSIST!"

Narcissism runs a wide spectrum.

I've been hurt by some who, as a result, I might consider 'narcissists', but more accurately, I would call them simply 'self-important'.
 
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anna ~ grace

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Are you a narcissist? Have you ever been hurt by one? Did you grow up with a narcissistic parent? Significant other? Do you believe narcissism is due more to nature or nurture? A mix between the two? Evolutionary origins? How much sympathy and tolerance do you have towards them? Do you find yourself attracted to men or women who exhibit this trait?
Honestly, man? I think this term is horrifically over-used. Everybody has the capacity to be selfish, blind to the needs of others, and manipulative.

Having said that, yeah, I’ve been hurt by people. I believe that social media and the constant affirmations that it generates, and the constant attention, can encourage people to be more selfish and self absorbed than we were in generations past.

A conversation with a young person these days is often them ranting and complaining about their life and then walking away; there’s no dialogue, no attempt on their part to ask how you’re doing, no interest in the other person’s life. The other person is just a passive listener to a real-life tweet or blog post, then the speaker walks away. I’ve had these kinds of interactions with kids in their teens and twenties; it’s getting more common.

I don’t think they mean to be selfish; and if you need help with something practical in real life, they’ll gladly jump in and help you. But the verbal side of communication now mirrors social media, and it’s weird.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Do you believe narcissism is due more to nature or nurture?

I really love this You-tube psychologist!

I've heard different things like we don't know the origins of it but this psychologist says it comes from having a neglectful but also over indulgent parent. They neglect you, but shower you with praise and attention for any positive thing you do.


 
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Freth

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Narcissism is simply the same sin that manifested itself in Lucifer. Selfishness and pride. All of us are narcissists to some degree; what we're talking about here is varying degrees of sin, of which we are all guilty. God hates sin and we should too, but we shouldn't hate the sinner. Being attracted to sinful people, in my view, is a product of the condition of the heart.
 
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Mark Quayle

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In fact, I posted this yesterday in a thread about "False Prophets"


I have seen some stuff out of the Prophetic movement in the Charismatic movement that has caused me some concern. Overall though I have been more concerned with people who have things like Narcistic Personality Disorder and other kinds of related disorders taking advantage of certain Bible passages and Christian culture etc. I encountered 2 pastors who I think had an orientation like that in my past and it was very educational to say the least.

Help!, My Pastor is a Narcissist


For that I note a few things to beware of when dealing with such people even when you think you got them "dead to rights" these little tricks they do to bamboozle you.


1) People who call you to have strict accountability but kind of do whatever they want because they are "the shepherd", "have the anointing" etc. Our relationships including in the Church should be a two way streets and not one way streets where leadership is exempt because they are a special chosen person.


2) Motive Questioning to side step problems. In Philippians saint Paul said he was OK with people preaching the Gospel for selfish gain, or to get him in trouble with the authorities etc. because "at least the Gospel is being preached". Anyway Biblical truth is valuable no matter what the motivation but I point this out because of motive questioning as a cheap tactic to derail and distract you by such people.


3) The use of the "Go to your brother in Secret" gospel verse claimed when you are complaining about stuff they are doing in public! This is another cheap trick that can easily bamboozle someone confronting such folks for their very blatant and often open misdeeds if they are not prepared for it.


4) If you really got them locked in they will probably push your buttons if you are prone to empathy saying "That you judged them etc." and acting like they have severe hurt feelings etc. which will suck you in if you are Mercy gift etc. Be careful of this. It is best to not overplay or exaggerate any claims you make against, and be as professional as possible when you first deal with them. But beware, they can really pull at your heart strings and will use this as there last ditch attempt to put you under their thumb. (They however are not very smart, and will immediately gloat over such a victory which may help to wake you up that you were manipulated).
1) I haven't seen it said elsewhere, to my memory, but I have noticed the change that comes over one, when they are handed what they take to be a great spiritual responsibility over others (almost as though we aren't also spiritually responsible for how we affect others, but I digress). Strangely, I have seen the same sort of thing in salesmen and politicians. I can go into a hardware store I have used for decades, and finding a new salesman there, ask him if they have a 3/8" cold chisel, and he will say something like, "Yes, I do stock those." What a politician will say is more than I want to get into, but mostly they have inflated egos, and do their best to appear humble. The change in them is remarkable, though, from when they first begin their tenure and almost always by 3 years afterwards. And, oh my goodness— radio talk-show hosts: "I'm the only one!".

Elijah thought he was "the only one!". (I know of a self-declared "Apostle" on another forum site, who is more narcissistic than anyone else in my recent memory. With him, I don't know which came first, the chicken or the egg, but I think he is a certifiable mental case. In fact, while I told him that some of his posts clearly demonstrated sin, he said that he never sinned anymore. (When pressed, he said that when he does it, it is 'stumbling', but when I do it, it is 'sin'!)) Preachers are almost always, being under God's thumb, sensitive to the fact that much depends on them, (the thoroughness of their study; the conviction of the fact that no matter how well they understand they still fall short of truth, yet are responsible to be accurate in their delivery; the 'governing feel' of being overseer; etc.) so they become self-important. I noticed a change coming over me when I first began to teach a Sunday School class for adults, and found it almost impossible to shed it. It still gnaws at me.

3. I think public floggings, and even public executions, including the old Israel use of stoning, and such public humbling of a person, was for the good of the community. (The visceral reaction against it, I think, is partly because of the notion, probably not altogether unwarranted, that what should make the onlooker sick to their stomach and serve as a warning, instead becomes 'old hat' or even barbaric entertainment.) The 60's 'Christian' notion of "save each man's pride", even as a teen I thought that while it felt nice, it didn't feel quite clean.
 
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dzheremi

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With the caveat that I believe that everyone is at least slightly narcissistic (if by that, you mean 'self-important'; if each of us didn't think we were at least a little important, why would any of us be on this discussion board, adding our particular voices to it?), there certainly must be some kind of scalar or spectral dimension to this. Some people have more pride than others, or a bigger ego, or however you want to put it, and it's when such things get in the way of relationships or even one's ability to function that it starts becoming a problem, if not for the person themselves then at least for those around them.

So yeah, I've known and been hurt by some people who are like that. Then again, I've probably also been such a person in other people's lives. Lord have mercy. I hope I've learned as a result how to deal with myself better, since I can't control what anyone else does, says, or thinks.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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(I know of a self-declared "Apostle" on another forum site, who is more narcissistic than anyone else in my recent memory. With him, I don't know which came first, the chicken or the egg, but I think he is a certifiable mental case. In fact, while I told him that some of his posts clearly demonstrated sin, he said that he never sinned anymore. (When pressed, he said that when he does it, it is 'stumbling', but when I do it, it is 'sin'!)) Preachers are almost always, being under God's thumb, sensitive to the fact that much depends on them, (the thoroughness of their study; the conviction of the fact that no matter how well they understand they still fall short of truth, yet are responsible to be accurate in their delivery; the 'governing feel' of being overseer; etc.) so they become self-important. I noticed a change coming over me when I first began to teach a Sunday School class for adults, and found it almost impossible to shed it. It still gnaws at me.

Seen that sort of thing too. For the record, the modern "Apostles" actually came from the modern Prophetic Churches. That was suppose to be a new "gift" that God was restoring to the Church going back to the mid to late 90s. I attended a church for a few years that helped to launch that movement in the Charismatic world, where a copastor David Cannistraci wrote the first big book that got things going. He was soon followed by Bill Hamon (who was the biggest figure as far as mainstreaming Prophetic Churches in the Charismatic world) who wrote a sequel book to his earlier Prophetic Movement books that highlighted Apostles.

https://www.amazon.com/Gift-Apostle-David-Cannistraci/dp/0830718451
 
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DaisyDay

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Yes, almost all of us care about ourselves, but narcissists care only about themselves. Most of us, if we see someone get poked in the eye with a stick, will wince and tear up ourselves, while the narcissist will not empathize. It is this lack of empathy that is the true mark of a narcissist, not mere self-interest or self-regard.

Narcissists can be extremely charming because they don't care one way or the other if the other person is harmed as long as they benefit, so they will say and do pleasing things to get what they want - attention, adulation, money.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Are you a narcissist? Have you ever been hurt by one? Did you grow up with a narcissistic parent? Significant other? Do you believe narcissism is due more to nature or nurture? A mix between the two? Evolutionary origins? How much sympathy and tolerance do you have towards them? Do you find yourself attracted to men or women who exhibit this trait?

Those are some good and useful questions, Mehguy! But y'know, I'm wondering how many people here would actually come out and admit in public that they've been diagnosed with a bona-fide case of narcissism (N.P.D.). Do you know of any here so far? Maybe we need an anonymous poll?

Interestingly enough for me, I notice that folks don't seem to have a too much of a resistence to sharing that they're struggling with O.C.D. or Aspergers or some other cognitive challenge, but I think we'd be hard pressed to see anyone admit they are a full-fledged Narcissist. I could be wrong on this, though. Some people are full of surprises!

Next question: Have I been hurt by someone with narcissism? No, but the only one I've encountered so far thought he could simply evaluate me based on how I responded to whatever spritiual critiria he thought were most important: like, did I sing, praise and worship with the intensity that "he did"? (Of course, by that measure, I failed 'cuz I'm not a great singer, and I [admittedly] didn't like the music he liked.) ... but that was years ago and now it's just so much water under the bridge.

Do I think Narcissism is due more to nature or nurture? I don't know. I leave that up to the psychologists to figure out on a case by case basis. In the case of the guy I mentioned just above, his was probably due to a 'daddy complex' since he didn't have a father while growing up. But again, I don't know for sure. I will say that he was also a good looking guy and, I guess that his looks gave him some confidence that I obviously didn't have (and that he saw that I didn't have). :dontcare:
 
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namohcam

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Most psychoses are caused by low-functioning of the pre-frontal cortex, where the capacity for empathy is contained. I'm not an expert, but I've heard it said that Jesus Christ had/has the most fully developed frontal lobe that ever existed. And that's not too hard to believe. :)
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e37a1297-b60d-458b-9f79-208cb8e0df90.a2cfae98d5c93ed42d5157556ab01cca.jpeg
 
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DaisyDay

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With him, I don't know which came first, the chicken or the egg, but I think he is a certifiable mental case.
Funny thing about that is that full blown narcissists aren't generally seen as mentally ill simply because they are adept at taking care of their own needs. Narcissism is classified as a personality disorder rather than mental illness. SMH.

Are all narcissists evil? No, some have the capacity to see what others feel even if they don't feel it themselves and not all are malicious.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Yes, almost all of us care about ourselves, but narcissists care only about themselves. Most of us, if we see someone get poked in the eye with a stick, will wince and tear up ourselves, while the narcissist will not empathize. It is this lack of empathy that is the true mark of a narcissist, not mere self-interest or self-regard.

Narcissists can be extremely charming because they don't care one way or the other if the other person is harmed as long as they benefit, so they will say and do pleasing things to get what they want - attention, adulation, money.

Yeah I have had a lot of memes on this sort of thing pushed to my Facebook account the last year or two.

Boundaries.jpg
 
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2PhiloVoid

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In fact, I posted this yesterday in a thread about "False Prophets"


I have seen some stuff out of the Prophetic movement in the Charismatic movement that has caused me some concern. Overall though I have been more concerned with people who have things like Narcistic Personality Disorder and other kinds of related disorders taking advantage of certain Bible passages and Christian culture etc. I encountered 2 pastors who I think had an orientation like that in my past and it was very educational to say the least.

Help!, My Pastor is a Narcissist


For that I note a few things to beware of when dealing with such people even when you think you got them "dead to rights" these little tricks they do to bamboozle you.


1) People who call you to have strict accountability but kind of do whatever they want because they are "the shepherd", "have the anointing" etc. Our relationships including in the Church should be a two way street and not a one way street where leadership is exempt because they are a special chosen person.


2) Motive Questioning to side step problems. In Philippians saint Paul said he was OK with people preaching the Gospel for selfish gain, or to get him in trouble with the authorities etc. because "at least the Gospel is being preached". Anyway Biblical truth is valuable no matter what the motivation but I point this out because of motive questioning as a cheap tactic to derail and distract you by such people.


3) The use of the "Go to your brother in Secret" gospel verse claimed when you are complaining about stuff they are doing in public! This is another cheap trick that can easily bamboozle someone confronting such folks for their very blatant and often open misdeeds if they are not prepared for it.


4) If you really got them locked in they will probably push your buttons if you are prone to empathy saying "That you judged them etc." and acting like they have severe hurt feelings etc. which will suck you in if you are Mercy gift etc. Be careful of this. It is best to not overplay or exaggerate any claims you make against, and be as professional as possible when you first deal with them. But beware, they can really pull at your heart strings and will use this as there last ditch attempt to put you under their thumb. (They however are not very smart, and will immediately gloat over such a victory which may help to wake you up that you were manipulated).

One strange thing I've seen among skeptics, and even occassionally from a rare individual somewhere in this or that church, is an assertion that folks like the Apostle Paul or John the Baptist, or anyone else who is assertive at times in pressing home a spiritual point in the face of firm dissent, is a narcissist. But to my best lights, I can't see how Paul or John the Baptist qualify for that kind of criticism ...
 
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Mark Quayle

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Yes, almost all of us care about ourselves, but narcissists care only about themselves. Most of us, if we see someone get poked in the eye with a stick, will wince and tear up ourselves, while the narcissist will not empathize. It is this lack of empathy that is the true mark of a narcissist, not mere self-interest or self-regard.

Narcissists can be extremely charming because they don't care one way or the other if the other person is harmed as long as they benefit, so they will say and do pleasing things to get what they want - attention, adulation, money.
So, those who are overly self-important or self-involved are not necessarily narcissists? I consider such traits to be narcissistic at the least. Two such people I know were extremely empathetic at times —at least until they perceived wrong-doing against themselves.

But I'm no authority on the subject.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Funny thing about that is that full blown narcissists aren't generally seen as mentally ill simply because they are adept at taking care of their own needs. Narcissism is classified as a personality disorder rather than mental illness. SMH.

Are all narcissists evil? No, some have the capacity to see what others feel even if they don't feel it themselves and not all are malicious.
Why the SMH? Are you scorning what I said? Are not some mentally ill people narcissists?
 
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Pavel Mosko

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One strange thing I've seen among skeptics, and even occassionally from a rare individual somewhere in this or that church, is an assertion that folks like the Apostle Paul or John the Baptist, or anyone else who is assertive at times in pressing home a spiritual point in the face of firm dissent, is a narcissist. But to my best lights, I can't see how Paul or John the Baptist qualify for that kind of criticism ...

The Comparison is very spurious because these people who maybe seem bossy on certain occasions aren't really using their position to help themselves especially in normal socially acceptable ways, like earning a regular salary from offerings, tithes etc. Paul argued for that in one of the epistles mentioning the passage about not muzzling the Ox but mostly was self supporting except for an occasion where he let the Philippians finance one of his missionary trips.
 
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... Narcissism is classified as a personality disorder rather than mental illness. SMH...

A personality disorder is a fairly serious (and rare) psychiatric diagnosis. Like many kinds of characteristics, narcissism exists on a continuum. Many persons have small "n" narcissistic characteristics that, while annoying, don't meet the diagnostic criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

A criticism of my field after 30+ years of practice is we are prone to having what I'll call "vogue diagnoses." Someone publishes research or writes a popular book on a particular diagnosis and suddenly folks are seeing that diagnosis everywhere. Wait 5 to 10 years and that diagnosis will be replaced by a different diagnosis, then everyone will have that for awhile until the next series of articles or books come out. When you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a real thing, but in popular usage now "Narcissist" is a label too easily applied to someone that has offended us or who has not treated us with much regard as we think we are due.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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The Comparison is very spurious because these people who maybe seem bossy on certain occasions aren't really using their position to help themselves especially in normal socially acceptable ways, like earning a regular salary from offerings, tithes etc. Paul argued for that in one of the epistles mentioning the passage about not muzzling the Ox but mostly was self supporting except for an occasion where he let the Philippians finance one of his missionary trips.

That's an excellent point, Pavel! What do you think drives some folks to identify others who have some actual, authoritative clout as being narcissistic? I'm just thinking about this sine I'm looking at the pattern of interplay that took place between Paul and his Corinthian detractors, John the Baptist and his Pharisaical detractors, and even Jesus in being identified as, above all else, "empowered by Beelzebub" and wondering why all of this invective of accusation takes place. Could there be that there was some kind of narcissistic nuance of personality exhibited by Paul or John?
 
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