WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

[public hermit]

SDA's believe in soul unconsciousness followed by resurrection and judgment to heaven or eternal annihilation.

Thank you, I did not know that. I don't say that as a judgment, it's just I would rather know that and have some situational awareness.

It is significant, I think, that so many passages speak in terms of destruction. Is that justification for embracing annihilation? I'm not sure.

 

[Clare73]

Old testament passages are suspect, given the ancient Israelites did not have a robust conception of the afterlife other than everybody goes to Sheol. The few passages that would be exceptions are just that, exceptions, and cannot be used to argue they did have the conception that later developed.

Jesus was pretty clear about it in Luke 16:19-31 and the unsaved hereafter in Hades, the place of the damned in Sheol.

The majority of the NT passages you cite favor an annihilationist's postion, i.e. the prevalence of "destroy." Is that your position?

Keeping in mind that
"destroy" (apollumi, apoleia) do not mean extinction, but ruin, loss of well beng, not loss of being, as
wineskins, sheep, son, food, gold in Luke 5:37, 15:4, 6, 24; John 6:27; 1 Peter 1:7; Matthew 2:13,
persons in Matthew 2;13, 8:25, 22:7, 27:20, and
the unsaved hereafter in Matthew 10:28; Luke 13:3, 5; John 3:16 (15), 10:28, 17:12; Romans 2:12; 1 Corinthians 15:18; 2 Corinthians 2:15, 4:3, 2 Thessalonians 2:10; James 4:12; 2 Peter 3:9.

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[public hermit]

Jesus was pretty clear about it in Luke 16:19-31 and the unsaved hereafter in Hades, the place of the damned in Sheol

I'm not seeing a time element of forever (hereafter) in this passage. Did I miss it?

Keeping in mind that
"destroy" (apollumi, apoleia) do not mean extinction, but ruin, loss of well beng, not loss of being, as
wineskins, sheep, son, food, gold

Loss of being is extinction if total. I looked through these passages and find no definitive reason to read "perish" in any way other than the usual way of destruction in toto. How are you not reading your alternate understanding into the texts?

 

[Clare73]

I'm not seeing a time element of forever (hereafter) in this passage. Did I miss it?

Are you seeing a time element of temporary there. . .in light of Matthew 12:32--permanently unforgiven sin in the afterlife, or Revelation 20:14-15 and Revelation 20:10?

Loss of being is extinction if total. I looked through these passages and find no definitive reason to read "perish" in any way other than the usual way of destruction in toto. How are you not reading your alternate understanding into the texts?

You disappoint me. . .so the lost (apollumi--destroyed) sheep which were found (Luke 15:4-6) had been destroyed "in toto"?
And the lost (apollumi--destroyed) son that returned (Luke 15:24) had been destroyed "in toto"?
And the old burst wineskins, ruined (apollumi--destroyed) by filling them with new wine, (Luke 5:37) had been destroyed "in toto"?

So I repeat: "destroy" (apollumi, apoleia) do not mean extinction, but ruin, loss of well beng, not loss of being iself.

 

[Lazarus Short]

SDA's believe in soul unconsciousness followed by resurrection and judgment to heaven or eternal annihilation.

Have you considered that eternal annihilation means that Death cannot be defeated? However, the Bible says it will be at some time in the future. I say this as an ex-Adventist - I studied my way into it and then studied my way back out again.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

SDA's believe in soul unconsciousness followed by resurrection and judgment to heaven or eternal annihilation.

We should believe and follow what God's Word says right?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

What you said is obviously true but it ignores the feelings of human beings who are created according to God's image and who will be damned.

When God told Abraham about destroying Sodom, the latter had feelings for human beings and started to bargain with God: what if there were 10 good people, 5 good people?

So, what if some non-Christians had 10% goodness, 5% goodness?

Perhaps for some Christians, even if non-Christians had 90% goodness they deserve to be destroyed bec they did not believe in Christ.

I'm sure that God is more merciful and compassionate.

Of course we should be saddened by anyone who rejects God's gospel invitation of forgiveness of sins. The invitation is open for everyone who wants it though and all are free to choose for themselves who they will believe and follow. The new covenant teaches God changes the Heart which are the thoughts and feelings (Hebrews 8:10-12; Jeremiah 31:31-34). The scriptures also teach that Gods mercy is reserved for all those who love Him and keep His commandments (see Exodus 20:6; John 14:15; John 15:10). God's love and mercy are not given to those who do not believe and follow God's Word and reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of God's grace according to Hebrews 10:26-31.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Have you considered that eternal annihilation means that Death cannot be defeated? However, the Bible says it will be at some time in the future. I say this as an ex-Adventist - I studied my way into it and then studied my way back out again.

No as the wages of sin in death *Romans 6:23 but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Eternal life is only reserved for all those who believe and follow Gods' Word while condemnation and death for those who reject the gift of Gods' dear son *John 3:16-20; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-27.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Jesus and the Pharisees had a very different conception of the afterlife than the ancient Israelites.

Where is that found in the scriptures. Jesus, the apostles and the Pharisees were Israelites.

The Sadducees were probably closer to the ancient conception, which was that everyone went to the same place, Sheol. It's somewhat anachronistic to argue for a conception of the afterlife from passages that predate the conception, I think. But, if you want to argue everyone goes to the same place, Sheol has been there all along, lol.

This section of your post here does not make any sense to me and does not really have any basis in scripture that I can see. You may need to explain yourself a little further as maybe I am not understanding your point. According to the scriptures though, the Sadducee's did not believe in a resurrection of the dead like Jesus and the Pharisees taught *Mark 12:18-27; Acts of the Apostles 23:8.

Hope this helps.

 

[Lazarus Short]

No as the wages of sin in death *Romans 6:23 but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Eternal life is only reserved for all those who believe and follow Gods' Word while condemnation and death for those who do not *John 3:16-20.

So then, you're saying that Death will not be defeated. God's Word says otherwise.

 

[Clare73]

So then, you're saying that Death will not be defeated. God's Word says otherwise.

That's physical death. . .defeated in the resurrection, and spiritual death defeated for those who apply its remedy--faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ No as the wages of sin in death *Romans 6:23 but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Eternal life is only reserved for all those who believe and follow Gods' Word while condemnation and death for those who do not *John 3:16-20.

Your response here..

So then, you're saying that Death will not be defeated. God's Word says otherwise.

No I never said any such thing. What do you think my post you are quoting from was saying?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Your response here..

No I never said any such thing. What do you think my post you are quoting from means?

You may not realize what follows from what you say. You say, "Eternal life is only reserved for all those who believe and follow Gods' Word while condemnation and death for those who do not"

With condemnation and death for some, death is not destroyed. How is that not clear to you?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You may not realize what follows from what you say. You say, "Eternal life is only reserved for all those who believe and follow Gods' Word while condemnation and death for those who do not"

With condemnation and death for some, death is not destroyed. How is that not clear to you?

Not really. The scriptures and God's promises are written for God's Saints, not the wicked *John 3:16-20. Death is destroyed for God's saints who receive eternal life not the wicked who receive the wages of sin which is death along with death at the second death in the lake of fire, because they reject the gift of Gods' dears son *Romans 6:23. It seems your confused here.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Not really. The scriptures are for God's Saints not the wicked. Death is destroyed for God's saints who receive eternal life. It seems your confused here.

No confusion here. However you divide it, if some are dead, even annihilated, how can Death be defeated? No more death means no more dead. I have asked this question many times now on CF, and no one seems to understand, let alone answer.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No confusion here. However you divide it, if some are dead, even annihilated, how can Death be defeated? No more death means no more dead. I have asked this question many times now on CF, and no one seems to understand, let alone answer.

Not at all I have only provided scripture for what is shared with you based on John 3:16-20; Romans 6:23. No more death and no more dead is in reference and context to those who believe and follow God's Word not to those who do not believe and do not follow. Eternal life is conditional on believing and following Gods' Word. Perhaps no one understands your question because it is a contradiction of the scriptures as pointed out earlier. You do know that Gods' promises are for Gods' people right not the wicked? I am not sure why you cannot see this.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Not at all I have only provided scripture for what is shared with you based on John 3:16-20; Romans 6:23. No more death and no more dead is in reference and context to those who believe and follow God's Word not to those who do not believe and do not follow. Eternal life is conditional on believing and following Gods' Word. Perhaps no one understands your question because it is a contradiction of the scriptures as pointed out earlier. You do know that Gods' promises are for Gods' people right not the wicked? I am not sure why you cannot see this.

God promised to restore the fortunes of the children of Sodom, as we see in Ezekiel 15:53...so promises are for the wicked too. Have you considered that God may only destroy the wickedness of the wicked?

As to why I cannot see what you assert, and it seems you cannot grasp what I assert...is our theologies. I subscribe to the idea that God will reconcile the entire created Cosmos to Himself. Now do you grasp my POV?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

God promised to restore the fortunes of the children of Sodom, as we see in Ezekiel 15:53...so promises are for the wicked too. Have you considered that God may only destroy the wickedness of the wicked?

As to why I cannot see what you assert, and it seems you cannot grasp what I assert...is our theologies. I subscribe to the idea that God will reconcile the entire created Cosmos to Himself. Now do you grasp my POV?

I did not assert anything but simply provided scripture which is Gods' Words not mine. As posted earlier Gods' promises are conditional and only for those who believe and follow Gods' Word not to those who do not believe and do not follow. I think this is where your problem lies. You believe Gods' promises are for the wicked. They are not and your POV is not biblical. See the scriptures already provided in the OP that disagree with you.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I did not assert anything but simply provided scripture which is Gods' Words not mine. As posted earlier Gods' promises are conditional and only for those who believe and follow Gods' Word not to those who do not believe and do not follow. I think this is where your problem lies. You believe Gods' promises are for the wicked. They are not and your POV is not biblical. See the scriptures already provided in the OP that disagree with you.

I have read, and understood, every book, chapter and verse in the Bible, and in multiple translations. I consider my POV biblical, just like every other Christian on the forum. Yes, nearly all promises are for those who believe, but some are more general. OTOH, it's too late in the day to play proof text ping-pong.