Would you prefer it if “Five point Calvinism” were true?

[Cormack]

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in five point Calvinism, would you prefer it if five point Calvinism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

 

[Hmm]

No. I'd be horrified to die and discover that I was one of the Elect. Apparently there's no way of knowing in this life which way you're predestined: to heaven as one of the Elect or to hell as one of the Reprobates. Even Five Point Calvanists don't know whether they belong to the Elect or not so one reason I hope it's not true is that it would spare me a lifetime of anxious not knowing where I was going to end up - my faith being irrelevant to this because it was predetermined before I was born.

Another reason I hope it's not true is that, while I wouldn't particularly want to be a Reprobate, I would really dislike being one of the Elect. I'd resent having to spend an eternity in the company of a God who was as irrational and unjust as this and I'd only get in trouble for refusing to take part in the worship singing. Although perhaps I could just mouth the words and get away with it that way.

I wouldn't like it to be true that Jesus died for some and not for all - the Calvanist belief of Limited Atonement. Above all, I wouldn't want a God who only loved some and not all.

I don't lie awake thinking that there is any chance that it is true though ☺️. This thread's a nice complement to your other thread on universalism. Both are well designed to help us examine our own thoughts which is always good.

 

[GallagherM]

No. That would be horrific. It is good to know that God is not a man, is mighty in strength and understanding, is compassionate, is faithful, is great and awesome, is with us, is a consuming fire, is an God of deliverances, is forgiving, is merciful, is just, is spirit, that loves. That love is a holy love, that has no evil inside of it what so ever.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in five point Calvinism, would you prefer it if five point Calvinism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

No.

Because it is unscriptural.

Though I see rationales for 5 point calvinism all over the web, whenever the points are recited, passages of scripture come back to remembrance to contradict the points.

Therefore, even if it can be "proven with scripture" it also contradicts scripture - this follows the pattern of a heresy.

 

[A_Thinker]

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in five point Calvinism, would you prefer it if five point Calvinism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

No ... it makes life capricious ... and the Christian God like Allah ...

 

[ColoRaydo]

Yes.

Yep, I know I’m in the minority here and will undoubtedly receive backlash, but hear me out.

I have spent a majority of my adult life living and working outside the USA in many non-Christian countries. I always thought, “How can (most of) these people possibly respond to the Good News when they’re in a culture that firmly rejects or simply ignores it?” I thought it was incredibly unfair that I might only have accepted Christ because I was born in a “Christian” country to Christian parents.

Most Christians may think election is unfair, though it’s clearly mentioned in the Bible. I would even say that most Christians believe it was through their own ability to make the choice to accept Christ. Many Christians want to believe that through their own efforts they became and remain saved. Personally, I think that our sinful nature predisposes to not seek Christ and it was God who gave us the irresistible calling.

Ok, let the arrows fly …

ps- when it comes to this, I have stated before that I could indeed be incorrect and it was purely my choosing (and yours). Either way, we’re all headed in the same direction regardless of how we got saved.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yes.

Yep, I know I’m in the minority here and will undoubtedly receive backlash, but hear me out.

I have spent a majority of my adult life living and working outside the USA in many non-Christian countries. I always thought, “How can (most of) these people possibly respond to the Good News when they’re in a culture that firmly rejects or simply ignores it?” I thought it was incredibly unfair that I might only have accepted Christ because I was born in a “Christian” country to Christian parents.

Most Christians may think election is unfair, though it’s clearly mentioned in the Bible. I would even say that most Christians believe it was through their own ability to make the choice to accept Christ. Many Christians want to believe that through their own efforts they became and remain saved. Personally, I think that our sinful nature predisposes to not seek Christ and it was God who gave us the irresistible calling.

Ok, let the arrows fly …

ps- when it comes to this, I have stated before that I could indeed be incorrect and it was purely my choosing (and yours). Either way, we’re all headed in the same direction regardless of how we got saved.

No fiery arrows from me.

In terms of respectful conversation, I find that election is mentioned in my bible, and at the same time passages that contradict the 5 points of calvinism. I come to the conclusion that calvinism as a bible philosophy does not have a godly understanding of election. I also conclude that God does choose us to some degree, but according to his logic, and not man's logic using the scripture.

Hope you have a blessed day.

 

[public hermit]

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in five point Calvinism, would you prefer it if five point Calvinism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

No. I was a five-pointer when I first came to faith because

1) It was intellectually satisfying in the sense that each part seemed to follow logically. But as my dad puts it, "Five point Calvinism is like a guitar that is in tune with itself, but out of tune with the rest of the band." Lol

2) I was such an out of control rapscallion that I need a conception of God whose love for me did not depend on my choices. I really needed a robust conception of a sovereign God to get out of the rut I was in. I came from a tradition that said we must choose God and live holy, and that sounded great but I could not do the holy bit well enough to feel loved. I assumed God only loved me if I was good, and I wasn't.

So, for mostly practical reasons I embraced five point Calvinism. But as time went on the harsh injustice of double-predestination began to override the benefits I perceived.

Why do I answer "No" today?

1. I think total depravity overstates the case and virtually wipes out any consideration that we are bearers of the divine image and inherently good

2. Limited atonement does not square with God's love nature and love for all people.

To me, the only way to make sense of Calvinism is if all are predestined to be reconciled with God. If that were the conclusion (extend unconditional election across the board), then the guitar would be in tune with the rest of the band, i.e. God's justice.

 

[RickReads]

No.

I don`t have time to list all the reasons why.

 

[Cormack]

No.

I don`t have time to list all the reasons why.

Could you share the biggest single reason or the most meaningful reason for you?

 

[Hmm]

No.

I don`t have time to list all the reasons why.

That's the best response to five point Calvanism I've ever heard lol. Says it all!

 

[Cormack]

Ok, let the arrows fly …

You’re a gifted writer and I value your contribution to the topic.

 

[RickReads]

Could you share the biggest single reason or the most meaningful reason for you?

Calvinists doctrine believes a person receives the Holy Spirit in advance before a person turns to God for salvation.

IMO a deadly error.

 

[A_Thinker]

Yes.

Yep, I know I’m in the minority here and will undoubtedly receive backlash, but hear me out.

I have spent a majority of my adult life living and working outside the USA in many non-Christian countries. I always thought, “How can (most of) these people possibly respond to the Good News when they’re in a culture that firmly rejects or simply ignores it?” I thought it was incredibly unfair that I might only have accepted Christ because I was born in a “Christian” country to Christian parents.

Most Christians may think election is unfair, though it’s clearly mentioned in the Bible. I would even say that most Christians believe it was through their own ability to make the choice to accept Christ. Many Christians want to believe that through their own efforts they became and remain saved. Personally, I think that our sinful nature predisposes to not seek Christ and it was God who gave us the irresistible calling.

Ok, let the arrows fly …

ps- when it comes to this, I have stated before that I could indeed be incorrect and it was purely my choosing (and yours). Either way, we’re all headed in the same direction regardless of how we got saved.

For this view to be tenable ... one must believe that God DEPENDS upon man to accomplish His will. Such a view would have us believe that God, Who allowed His only Son to suffer physical death upon a cross to attain reconcilliation with us, ... would allow any one of us ... to be lost to Him ... simply because no MAN has provided the gospel invitation to us during our physical lives.

Further, such a view brings into question HOW God saves those who preceded Christ's advent and salvific work ... some of whom we KNOW were saved ...

Hebrews 11

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

[A_Thinker]

In terms of respectful conversation, I find that election is mentioned in my bible, and at the same time passages that contradict the 5 points of calvinism. I come to the conclusion that calvinism as a bible philosophy does not have a godly understanding of election. I also conclude that God does choose us to some degree, but according to his logic, and not man's logic using the scripture.

Yes ... I agree that it is an issue of understanding.

It is, to some extent, similar to the issue of trying to understand the totality of God's existence (i.e. that it is beyond our mortal minds to comprehend). Trying to understand HOW God saves, which it not a requirement to be saved, is likely just as unknowable in its fullness.

P.S. I've heard testimony of God piercing foreign belief systems ... to bring salvific faith to individuals in a dream ... or vision ...

 

[A_Thinker]

1. I think total depravity overstates the case and virtually wipes out any consideration that we are bearers of the divine image and inherently good

Yes ... how could a bearer of the "image of God" be brought to a point of "total depravity" ?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in five point Calvinism, would you prefer it if five point Calvinism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

No.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in five point Calvinism, would you prefer it if five point Calvinism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

Cont...No, because it corrupts God's character.

 

[Albion]

No...Even Five Point Calvanists don't know whether they belong to the Elect or not so one reason I hope it's not true is that it would spare me a lifetime of anxious not knowing where I was going to end up - my faith being irrelevant to this because it was predetermined before I was born.

That's interesting because I'd say it's the opposite. If it were true, then there'd be no more worry and uncertainty over "Am I doing enough in order to be saved?," "Is one kind of good deed more meritorious than another and if so, which is which?," and "No matter how good I am, can I lose it all in an instant if I commit another sin?"

All of that is what those who have been taught the usual freewill approach to salvation are faced with.

But with five point Calvinism, all of that uncertainty is removed. For one thing, neither side knows if they are going to be saved or not, but the five point side at least knows it's in God's hands whereas the freewill side goes through life not knowing AND being told that it's our fault if we don't get it right, but with very little guidance about specifics.

Another reason I hope it's not true is that, while I wouldn't particularly want to be a Reprobate, I would really dislike being one of the Elect. I'd resent having to spend an eternity in the company of a God who was as irrational and unjust as this....

Okay, but I'd be happier knowing that God is God and he is in charge. Whatever happens, he is entitled to run the universe as he sees fit. That's an improvement over us playing God ourselves, wondering if we've earned salvation by our deeds or fallen short, etc., and feeling resentful of God in the way you have explained in your reply.

 

[Cormack]

I think for me, assuming five point Calvinism were true, not only would I feel uncertain of my own salvation (like others have shared,) but I’d also feel like a fraud sharing the Gospel with others.

I’ve loved evangelising the lost for years now, and that’s always involved sharing the good news that Christ came and died upon the cross for their sins and mine.

Limited atonement really puts an end to that kind of gift and those sorts of evangelistic efforts, replacing them with the idea that we are cogs, we are simply the means whereby God triggers the elect person to believe.

As though we were sent out into the world to reactivate sleeper agents who’ve long settled into enemy territory. They’ve had their memories erased and it’s up to gospel people to fire that system up again. This isn’t the long kiss goodnight and I’m not Samuel Jackson.

But in between all of that weirdness would be the fact that I’d offer the Gospel to loads of people for whom Jesus didn’t die and who God has no intention to save. There’s something very disingenuous about that.

Philosophically it’s called “the insincere offer of the Gospel.” Loving evangelism as I do, I’d never feel comfortable sharing Gods gift in a retarded form like “Jesus died for you…perhaps.” Nor would I feel at ease saying Jesus died for sinners when (for all I know) everyone in the church hall is unsaved (possibly including myself!!!!!)

For that reason I’d prefer it if Calvinism weren’t true.