JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

[LoveGodsWord]

Continuing on section by section,
The next thing said in that scripture passage is
"But now apart from the law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the law and the prophets."

It is much more than the 10 commandments that testify to God's righteousness that was to be revealed.

Law in this context, then, refers to more than the 10 commandments, imo.

Our opinions do not mean very much and are not God's Word. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

 

[BobRyan]

Continuing on section by section,
The next thing said in that scripture passage is
"But now apart from the law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the law and the prophets."

It is much more than the 10 commandments that testify to God's righteousness that was to be revealed.

Law in this context, then, refers to more than the 10 commandments, imo.

"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 is "more than the Ten" found in Ex 20
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 is "more than the Ten" found in Ex 20

So then Rom 3: "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

 

[SabbathBlessings]

@LoveGodsWord

Bottom line so far as I see it:
The Bible doesn't present the law with handy divisions, such as moral, ceremonial, etc.

If a person wishes to divide up the law that way, they will at some point go with what seems right to them. Hopefully they are led by the holy Spirit in that.

What seems right to me is treating all days alike. The fourth commandment would then be ceremonial, if I have to divide up the law that way.

Hi Leaf,

I see you are still trying to figure out the Sabbath and seem to be struggling to know if it is still binding.


This is how I see it.

God deemed only one day "Holy" "Sacred" "Blessed" and that He "Sanctified" in the entire Bible. Genesis 2:2-3 and Exodus 20:8-11. Considering God is holy and He wants us to be like Him this alone seals the deal for me, if God deemed one day holy and He separated this one day above ALL other days why would anyone want to worship Him on any other day?

God personally wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger and spoke them with His own voice. The Ten were stored in the most holy of holy in the Temple which includes the Sabbath commandment- why more people do not see the significance in this honestly really amazes me. We are told His Covenant is everlasting, so I believe God's TEN is something established way before God created earth and man. Because scripture tells us His covenant is everlasting you can either choose to believe that or really obscure verses that could mean what you hope it does (the Sabbath is abolished, or you don't need to do anything because Christ does the work when He gives us rest) which really undermines the scripture that God wrote and set apart as different from all other laws by personally writing His perfect will for us on stone and than stored in the most holy of holy in the Sanctuary.

The other thing that strikes me is how many people think the stories of the Old Testament do not apply to them. They are just stories of the Bible and you only have to worry about the New Testament. This is what separates the SDA church from most if not all churches is that we believe in the WHOLE bible. For example, the story of Moses saving the Israelites from Egypt and going 40 years through the desert to the promise land is parallel for today. When reading how some of the Israelites were killed because they broke the Sabbath, seemed really harsh when I read it, but I put it in today's perspective and when you look around how much sin there is in the world today it made more sense to me. In heaven, we will have free will and there will be no more sin. This is something to really ponder in my opinion. Which is why I think the scriptures in the Bible is one big test for all mankind. There is clear scripture on what day is God's Sabbath, what is sin and how we should live. There is enough scripture to give some doubts about God's Sabbath IF you really do not want to keep it and do your own will above God's. God wants to save each and every one of us. It broke God's heart when people profaned His Sabbaths and committed other sins. So much that He sent His only son Jesus to die on our behalf, not so we could continue sinning, Jesus gave us an advocate to help KEEP us from sinning, not to sin freely which is being taught today. John 14:15-18

Considering God deemed ONLY one day Holy and Jesus spoke so much about the Sabbath in the New Testament and keeping God's commandments, I think people are only fooling themselves when they think the only commandment has been erased from the TEN and that one commandment that is erased is the one that God started with REMEMBER. God bless

 

[Leaf473]

What law is Romans 7:7 and James 2:10-11 talking about?

Hints below...

Thou Shalt nor covet - Romans 7:7 from ---> Exodus 20:17
Thou shalt not murder - James 2:10-11 from ---> Exodus 20:13
Thou shalt not commit adultery - James 2:10-11 from ---> Exodus 20:14

Yes, I agree that Romans 7:7 and James 2:10-11 quote commandments from The Ten commandments.

The subject matter of those two passages is somewhat different, imo.
They both deal with the relationship of Christians with the law (as in the entire law), again imo.

So yes, I agree that those two passages are quoting from the set of laws known as the Ten commandments.
However, they are also quoting from the set of laws known as the entire law.

I think they are being used as examples of the entire law.

In anything like this, though, there was going to be some amount of subjectivity.

Your seeking to avoid answering this. I can understand why. If you do not want to answer the questions asked you just say so.

I believe I have answered it several times. Perhaps you're looking for a different kind of answer?

Your question can be understood two different ways.
Are you using "law" as a collective noun referring to a set of laws asking which set of laws is being referred to in these passages?

Or are you asking the tautological question such as, "when Paul quotes the law 'don't covet', which law is he quoting?"

Also, if your not interested in responding to my posts that I spend some time writing to you about I am sure we both have better things to do with our time.

What gives you the impression I'm not interested in responding to your posts? As I wrote earlier, I'm on a cell phone, so I'm going through your posts section by section.

But if for some reason you want to stop, just let me know so I don't keep writing more posts to you

I will answer the above question for you though. The above scriptures from Romans 7:7 and James 2:10-11 are direct references to context and subject matter which is Gods' 10 commandments. This is what the scriptures say verbatim (word for word). They are Gods' Words not my words.

Do you believe, then, that Romans 7:7 and James 2:10-11 are referring only to the ten commandments, and no other laws?

Now do you believe that it is sin to break anyone of Gods' 10 commandments?

Yes, I agree that breaking any one of the Ten commandments is sin.
The same is true of all of God's commandments, imo.

 

[Leaf473]

How does 1 John 3:4 link to other scriptures on subject matter? (e.g. Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11; Romans 3:20).

They are all talking about the relationship of Christians to the law and to sin.

How does 1 John 3:4 link directly to James 2:10-11?

They both indicate how important it is to keep the law, as in entire law, imo

Is it sin to break God's 10 commandments?

Breaking any one of the Ten commandments is sin.
The same is true of all of God's commandments, imo.

 

[Leaf473]

That would be against scripture that has already been provided to you that you choose to ignore. This is why I am considering finishing our discussion with you.

Are you talking about scriptures like this from Colossians? (I believe you've provided others as well, but this seems like a good place to start because, again, cell phone )
"Let no one therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new moon or a Sabbath day, which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's."

Do you believe this is intended to be a complete list? I don't believe it is.

If it is a complete list, does this mean that we regard only those laws which relate to eating, drinking, a feast day, a new moon, or a Sabbath day are Shadow laws? If so, there is still going to be personal opinions about which laws are "eating" laws, for example. I think, too, that the law about putting tassels on your clothes would be a moral law for today, then.

I recommend you stop participating in any discussion that is not edifying to you. This discussion is edifying to me, so I invite you to continue if it is edifying to you.

 

[Leaf473]

Our opinions do not mean very much and are not God's Word. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

Amen to following God's word!

Anytime something is written in a human language as the scriptures are, there is the possibility of ambiguities.

In Romans, what is the law that gives us knowledge of sin? The next thing that Paul wrote In that passage was that the law testified about the righteousness of God.

So in the context of that passage, "the law" refers to the entire law, not just the Ten commandments.

But since that is not something that is actually stated, it is an opinion.

 

[Leaf473]

"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 is "more than the Ten" found in Ex 20
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 is "more than the Ten" found in Ex 20

So then Rom 3: "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

Absolutely! I'd give your post multiple thumbs up if I could

 

[BobRyan]

So in the context of that passage, "the law" refers to the entire law, not just the Ten commandments.

But since that is not something that is actually stated, it is an opinion.

In 1 Cor 7:19 we see this "what matters is keeping the commandments of God"

But if you read the entire verse it addresses your point

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

The moral law of God is what determines what sin is - and that includes the TEN as Paul reminds us in Rom 13 and in Eph 6:1-3

This is the easy part of the discussion where the Bible scholars on both sides of the Saturday vs Sunday debate admit that the Bible affirms the ten as included in that moral law of God.

They also agree with SDAs and other Saturday groups - that the civil laws applicable only under a theocracy - are no longer applicable since none of us are in that Theocracy and we have no control over civil law to that extent.

This is what I keep calling the "easy part" since both sides agree to it.

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf,

Hi again

I see you are still trying to figure out the Sabbath and seem to be struggling to know if it is still binding.

Well, I'm having a nice conversation with @LoveGodsWord, which of course other people are welcome to join. That's how I see it.

This is how I see it.

God deemed only one day "Holy" "Sacred" "Blessed" and that He "Sanctified" in the entire Bible. Genesis 2:2-3 and Exodus 20:8-11. Considering God is holy and He wants us to be like Him this alone seals the deal for me, if God deemed one day holy and He separated this one day above ALL other days why would anyone want to worship Him on any other day?

My reasoning for worshiping him on every day is the same as what Jesus tells the Samaritan woman, "Neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem". But, both the mountain and Jerusalem were called holy by God. And Jerusalem of course contained the most holy place.

God personally wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger and spoke them with His own voice. The Ten were stored in the most holy of holy in the Temple which includes the Sabbath commandment- why more people do not see the significance in this honestly really amazes me. We are told His Covenant is everlasting, so I believe God's TEN is something established way before God created earth and man. Because scripture tells us His covenant is everlasting you can either choose to believe that or really obscure verses...

Just breaking in here, I don't think any Scripture is obscure.

...that could mean what you hope it does (the Sabbath is abolished, or you don't need to do anything because Christ does the work when He gives us rest) which really undermines the scripture that God wrote and set apart as different from all other laws by personally writing His perfect will for us on stone and than stored in the most holy of holy in the Sanctuary.

The other thing that strikes me is how many people think the stories of the Old Testament do not apply to them. They are just stories of the Bible and you only have to worry about the New Testament. This is what separates the SDA church from most if not all churches is that we believe in the WHOLE bible. For example, the story of Moses saving the Israelites from Egypt and going 40 years through the desert to the promise land is parallel for today. When reading how some of the Israelites were killed because they broke the Sabbath, seemed really harsh when I read it, but I put it in today's perspective and when you look around how much sin there is in the world today it made more sense to me. In heaven, we will have free will and there will be no more sin. This is something to really ponder in my opinion. Which is why I think the scriptures in the Bible is one big test for all mankind. There is clear scripture on what day is God's Sabbath, what is sin and how we should live. There is enough scripture to give some doubts about God's Sabbath IF you really do not want to keep it and do your own will above God's. God wants to save each and every one of us. It broke God's heart when people profaned His Sabbaths and committed other sins. So much that He sent His only son Jesus to die on our behalf, not so we could continue sinning, Jesus gave us an advocate to help KEEP us from sinning, not to sin freely which is being taught today. John 14:15-18

We also have the story of Moses wife circumcising his son. I think it's good to look for wisdom and all these things, but not imitate the exact practice.

Considering God deemed ONLY one day Holy and Jesus spoke so much about the Sabbath in the New Testament and keeping God's commandments, I think people are only fooling themselves when they think the only commandment has been erased from the TEN and that one commandment that is erased is the one that God started with REMEMBER. God bless

Jesus taught us to keep all of God's commandments.

Do we physically keep all of the ones that require physical action?

If we only keep some of them physically, now we are back to dividing the law into categories.
That's not my favorite approach, but I'm happy to talk about it. It looks to me like at some point people start using their personal opinions in dividing up the law. I can talk more about that if you want

 

[BobRyan]

My reasoning for worshiping him on every day is the same as what Jesus tells the Samaritan woman, "Neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem".

All true Christians "worship God every day" and that has been true from Adam to this very day - that also includes Moses. This same question and same answer has come up many times on this thread.

But as Ex 20:8-11, and Lev 23:2-3 and Is 58:13 point out - secular activity is not allowed on that which is sanctified and set apart solely for worship.

So for example - you can not sort the garbage to recycle the glass objects in the middle of a church service. That would be mixing secular activity into a context that is set apart for worship.

That is also why we don't "sort the garbage" on Sabbath.

God is the one saying that Israel can get manna 6 days a week but not on the 7th. That is not the devil giving that instruction - it is God. And He is not saying by that "live like the devil 6 days a week and only worship Me one day a week".

Again this is the easy part that Bible scholarship in almost all denominations - on BOTH sides of this topic - already easily admit and affirm.

 

[Leaf473]

In 1 Cor 7:19 we see this "what matters is keeping the commandments of God"

But if you read the entire verse it addresses your point

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

The moral law of God is what determines what sin is - and that includes the TEN as Paul reminds us in Rom 13 and in Eph 6:1-3

This is the easy part of the discussion where the Bible scholars on both sides of the Saturday vs Sunday debate admit that the Bible affirms the ten as included in that moral law of God.

They also agree with SDAs and other Saturday groups - that the civil laws applicable only under a theocracy - are no longer applicable since none of us are in that Theocracy and we have no control over civil law to that extent.

This is what I keep calling the "easy part" since both sides agree to it.

Howdy BobRyan,
Good to see you again.

Following your train of thought, do both sides of scholars agree that we are to physically keep the fourth commandment with things like going to church? No, of course not, because then there wouldn't be "both sides"

So, the practical issue: which commandments do we keep physically?

In every list I've seen
(Asking for a list being the reason I came on this thread),
personal opinion plays a role.

 

[Leaf473]

In 1 Cor 7:19 we see this "what matters is keeping the commandments of God"

But if you read the entire verse it addresses your point

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

The moral law of God is what determines what sin is - and that includes the TEN as Paul reminds us in Rom 13 and in Eph 6:1-3

This is the easy part of the discussion where the Bible scholars on both sides of the Saturday vs Sunday debate admit that the Bible affirms the ten as included in that moral law of God.

They also agree with SDAs and other Saturday groups - that the civil laws applicable only under a theocracy - are no longer applicable since none of us are in that Theocracy and we have no control over civil law to that extent.

This is what I keep calling the "easy part" since both sides agree to it.

Also, I'm glad you brought up the passage from Romans

Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Yes, has fulfilled the law. And I agree, that includes the Ten commandments.

For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet," and whatever other commandments there are,

And there's a lot more "whatever other commandments" isn't there?

are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.

So love (unspecified actions) is the fulfillment of the law? All of the "whatever other" commandments?

Or specified actions (e.g. Church going) are the fulfillment of certain commandments?

I lean towards the first approach, but I understand other Christians see it differently.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yes, I agree that Romans 7:7 and James 2:10-11 quote commandments from The Ten commandments.

The subject matter of those two passages is somewhat different, imo.
They both deal with the relationship of Christians with the law (as in the entire law), again imo.

So yes, I agree that those two passages are quoting from the set of laws known as the Ten commandments.
However, they are also quoting from the set of laws known as the entire law.

I think they are being used as examples of the entire law.

In anything like this, though, there was going to be some amount of subjectivity.


I believe I have answered it several times. Perhaps you're looking for a different kind of answer?

Your question can be understood two different ways.
Are you using "law" as a collective noun referring to a set of laws asking which set of laws is being referred to in these passages?

Or are you asking the tautological question such as, "when Paul quotes the law 'don't covet', which law is he quoting?"

Than the rest is easy. So if you agree that Romans 7:7 and James 2:10-11 is talking about the 10 commandments and that James is saying that if we break any one of Gods' 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin then you have your answer in relation to God's 4th commandment Sabbath which is one of Gods' 10 commandments.

According to the scriptures Gods' people keep all God's commandments not some of them which makes them a remnant in the world (see Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 5:2-3; Romans 13:8-10; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:4; 1 John 3:6-9) as sin (breaking God's law) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil according to 1 John 3:10.

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. - Ecclesiastes 12:13

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Leaf473]

All true Christians "worship God every day" and that has been true from Adam to this very day - that also includes Moses. This same question and same answer has come up many times on this thread.

Hopefully each time the subject comes around it can be refined. That's why I like concise posts. It makes the refining process better.

Of course, being concise is not always possible

But as Ex 20:8-11, and Lev 23:2-3 and Is 58:13 point out - secular activity is not allowed on that which is sanctified and set apart solely for worship.

If we include Lev 23:2-3 and Is 58:13 then we are now stepping outside of the ten commandments.

Should we also include the part about stoning the man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath?

I think this is where the various scholars on both sides began to differ, how one goes about keeping or fulfilling the Sabbath.

So for example - you can not sort the garbage to recycle the glass objects in the middle of a church service. That would be mixing secular activity into a context that is set apart for worship.

This is why I love so much the part from Colossians, "whatever you do, in word or in action, do it all in the name of the Lord".

A great thing to do when grocery shopping is to give thanks for every item that catches your eye on the shelves. Thank God for the ecology that produced it, and the technology he has given humans to put it there on the shelf.

It becomes a powerful act of worship!

That is also why we don't "sort the garbage" on Sabbath.

God is the one saying that Israel can get manna 6 days a week but not on the 7th. That is not the devil giving that instruction - it is God. And He is not saying by that "live like the devil 6 days a week and only worship Me one day a week".

There's a powerful lesson in the manna. We know that Jesus is the bread that comes down out of heaven. And of course we "gather" Jesus every day, now.

But I can talk more about the Israelites just gathering on 6 days if you want.

Again this is the easy part that Bible scholarship in almost all denominations - on BOTH sides of this topic - already easily admit and affirm.

I think they differ significantly on the practical, physical part, the when and how to "sort your garbage" as you mentioned above.

And imo that's what the discussion is really about, the practical, physical actions we take.

 

[BobRyan]

If we include Lev 23:2-3 and Is 58:13 then we are now stepping outside of the ten commandments.

The Bible includes 66 books - not just 27 - and I think a lot of people would agree on that point - on both sides of the Sabbath vs Sunday debate.

In addition the Bible says in Heb 10:4-11 that the laws regarding animal sacrifice end at the cross - so that is the Bible telling us what the Bible limit on animal sacrifice is.

Should we also include the part about stoning the man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath?

as already stated here

This is the easy part of the discussion where the Bible scholars on both sides of the Saturday vs Sunday debate admit that the Bible affirms the ten as included in that moral law of God.

They also agree with SDAs and other Saturday groups - that the civil laws applicable only under a theocracy - are no longer applicable since none of us are in that Theocracy and we have no control over civil law to that extent.

This is what I keep calling the "easy part" since both sides agree to it.

Are you going back to that point?

I think this is where the various scholars on both sides began to differ,

On the contrary as noted before - this is where they all agree with SDAs that the civil penalties under that theocracy end when the theocracy.

My point has consistently been - that there is no large need to get stuck on the part that is so easy that Bible scholars on both sides of the Sabbath debate freely admit to the Bible details.

 

[BobRyan]

Howdy BobRyan,
Good to see you again.

Following your train of thought, do both sides of scholars agree that we are to physically keep the fourth commandment with things like going to church? No, of course not, because then there wouldn't be "both sides"

The one's I keep quoting in various areas #1438 do agree with that .. on both sides of the debate.

Where they differ with the Bible-Sabbath keeping denominations is the degree to which the Bible can be "edited" to repoint the 4th commandment to week-day-1

 

[BobRyan]

So to give concrete examples of "both sides" in agreement on "certain points" on the Sabbath topic -

==

The "Sabbath" doctrine has two simple components.

1. All TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the moral Law of God that defines what sin IS AND is applicable to all mankind even in the NT.
2. The Sabbath commandment cannot be "edited" by Tradition.

almost ALL of the back-and-forth arguments you will see on this thread are on the easy-simple-part 1 where Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic, in almost all major denomination - AGREE. (and yet people opposing the Sabbath here - do not even agree with the majority of the Bible Scholarship on their own side of Sunday-keeping vs Sabbath topic !!)


Taking a look at where BOTH sides agree.

Baptist Confession of Faith - sectn 19.
Westminster Confession of Faith - sectn 19
D.L. Moody on the 4th commandment.
Dies Domini (Pope John Paul II)
R.C Sproul
C.H. Spurgeon
Eastern Orhtodox
Catholic Church
Martin Luther
etc.

ALL of them agree with the SDA church and other Sabbath keeping groups -- on these key points.

1. All TEN of the TEN commandments were given as the moral law of God in Eden - to mankind
2. All TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the Law of God that is written on the heart under the new Covenant.
3. The Sabbath commandment as given by God in scripture - points to Saturday - not Sunday.
4. The TEN Commandments are not in opposition to grace or the Gospel
5. all of mankind are still to this very day held to accountability by the TEN
6. The TEN are not - "just for Jews".

So here is are examples of Bible details about "the TEN" remaining - so obvious that Bible scholars on both sides agree

Westminster Confession of Faith -

Chapter XIX

Of the Law of God

I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[1]

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in Ten Commandments, and written in two tables:[2] the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.[3]

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[4] and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.[5] All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.[6]

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.[7]

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[8] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[9] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[10]

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[15] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20]

VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[21] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.[22]

And here we can see it from the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19

Baptist Confession of Faith -- as formatted by C.H.Spurgeon


The Law of God - Baptist Confession of Faith: Section 19


1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.

7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

Notice that even the Orthodox church confesses "the TEN" -- not merely "NINE" and affirms that they are not "just for Jews" in it's explicit statement #23

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When scholarship on BOTH sides look at the Bible and AGREE on these key details then it is a pretty good option .. take this as the starting point and then work through the differences that remain.

Essentially given all that common ground - the Sabbath keeping POV is "God's Word cannot be edited ... not even by tradition"... and that is the crux of where all the differences reside when it comes to Sabbath keeping vs the position taken by those groups I listed.

Someone comments later on in this thread as follows

As many of us agree:
one Church changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday because it rightly believed it was more fitting to celebrate worship on the day of Jesus Christ's glorious Resurrection .

Which highlights the point I just made above.

So getting to the "easy part" of these Bible details -- where BOTH sides agree - is starting at "square 1".

When you find someone arguing for a solution that does not even make it to "square 1" -- the chances of success are less than optimal.

=

Having said that - some more easy things to look at are:

1. Romans 14 does not mention the 7th Sabbath at all in the entire chapter.
"one man observes one day above another while another man observes them all... he who observes the day observes it or the Lord"

2. A careful reading of Col 2 - shows that it also does not mention the 7th day Sabbath - it only refers to the "Shadow" Sabbaths of Lev 23 - the annual feast days. Holy days in the Bible.

3. Gal 4:9-11 only references pagan holy days that the former-pagan gentiles in Gal 4 "were returning to" after becoming Christians. The observance of even one of them was condemned by Paul in Gal 4 --- as contrasted to the defense of all the Bible holy days defended by Paul in Rom 14.

4. Gal 5:1-5 is not condemning the Bible. So then it is still a sin to "take God's name in vain" for example. Gal 5 is condemning the "made up tradition" of gentiles required to be circumcised to be saved... and the idea that a lost person could "earn salvation" by not taking God's name in vain - without accepting the Gospel and being born again.

And as for the bonus text making it all very very easy

Is 66:23 - for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth: "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"

Mark 2:27 "Sabbath made for mankind"
Is 56:6 - Gentiles singled out for Sabbath keeping.
Acts 18:4 gospel preaching for both gentiles and Jews "every Sabbath"

(There is only "one Gospel" -- Gal 1:6-9 and that Gospel "was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8 which is why in your OP that Matt 17 text shows both Moses and Elijah standing with Christ in glory - before the cross... because there is only one Gospel and it was in the OT as well as NT. Same is true for New Covenant in Jer 31:31-34 as well as Heb 8:6-12)

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
In 1 Cor 7:19 we see this "what matters is keeping the commandments of God"

But if you read the entire verse it addresses your point

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

The moral law of God is what determines what sin is - and that includes the TEN as Paul reminds us in Rom 13 and in Eph 6:1-3

This is the easy part of the discussion where the Bible scholars on both sides of the Saturday vs Sunday debate admit that the Bible affirms the ten as included in that moral law of God.

They also agree with SDAs and other Saturday groups - that the civil laws applicable only under a theocracy - are no longer applicable since none of us are in that Theocracy and we have no control over civil law to that extent.

This is what I keep calling the "easy part" since both sides agree to it.

Also, I'm glad you brought up the passage from Romans

Yes, has fulfilled the law. And I agree, that includes the Ten commandments.

And as both sides agree - "that does not mean we are free to take God's name in vain" neither Rom 13 or Matt 19 are telling us we can take God's name in vain as long as we love our neighbor as ourselves.

So again - the easy part of the discussion would be a great place to accept - and start.

 

[BobRyan]

All true Christians "worship God every day" and that has been true from Adam to this very day - that also includes Moses. This same question and same answer has come up many times on this thread.

But as Ex 20:8-11, and Lev 23:2-3 and Is 58:13 point out - secular activity is not allowed on that which is sanctified and set apart solely for worship.

So for example - you can not sort the garbage to recycle the glass objects in the middle of a church service. That would be mixing secular activity into a context that is set apart for worship.

That is also why we don't "sort the garbage" on Sabbath.

God is the one saying that Israel can get manna 6 days a week but not on the 7th. That is not the devil giving that instruction - it is God. And He is not saying by that "live like the devil 6 days a week and only worship Me one day a week".

Again this is the easy part that Bible scholarship in almost all denominations - on BOTH sides of this topic - already easily admit and affirm.

There's a powerful lesson in the manna. We know that Jesus is the bread that comes down out of heaven. And of course we "gather" Jesus every day, now.

Not true. That is two gospels - but in real life Gal 1:6-9 - there is only one.
Gal 3:8 and that Gospel was preached to Abraham
Heb 4:1 "the Gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also"

Moses and Elijah stand "with Christ in glory" before the cross - in Mattt 17 and it is not because "they only had Christ one day a week". Here again you have a flawed application.

The point remains - that it is God coming up with this concept -- not the devil.

But I can talk more about the Israelites just gathering on 6 days if you want.

I think they differ significantly on the practical, physical part, the when and how to "sort your garbage" as you mentioned above.

Funny -- but not true.

They all agree that no matter how highly you value your garbage and the sorting of the glass bottles out of it to recycle them - you can't do it in the middle of church. Just as God also stated in Is 58:13 no mixing in the secular with the sacred.

This is the easy part.

Would be good to get passed the part where scholarship on both sides of the Sabbath debate agree and get to the part where they differ.