Noachian Flood discussion - Bible skeptics vs Lion IRC and friends :)

[trophy33]

Mark didn't witness the prayer.

Thats not the point (you probably meant Luke).

 

[Speedwell]

To be a mature student of the Bible.

And you wind up with something not actually in the Bible--a "Gospel" fabricated to justify your own exegesis.

 

[inquiring mind]

Then you misunderstood the article. At the end of our latest glaciation sea level rose around the world. In some areas massive floods probably occurred, such as at the Black Sea. Those events would have been separated by hundreds to thousands of years. They were all local. There were no mass extinctions or deaths as a result. They were nothing like the biblical flood of Noah.

Sorry, I see it differently, and I believe some of these scientists do as well. At least they're out there looking at the possibility and not accepting academia hook, line and sinker.

 

[inquiring mind]

Thats all nice, but the problem is not "why Matthew and Luke have different goals", but "why both Matthew and Luke said they quote Jesus and quoted him differently. One of them is technically wrong, logically. Or both. Either Jesus said it as Matthew says or Jesus said it as Luke says. Both cannot be right.

Verbal communication and written communication have one thing in common, the human quality, and as such are not identical. That does not mean each was not inspired for the message.

 

[trophy33]

Verbal communication and written communication have one thing in common, the human quality, and as such are not identical. That does not mean each was not inspired for the message.

I have nothing against the view that the Biblical message is inspired. But if somebody believes every word in the Bible is infallible, the Bible itself refutes this quickly and easily.

 

[inquiring mind]

And you wind up with something not actually in the Bible--a "Gospel" fabricated to justify your own exegesis.

Or in it, or yours... there's always choices in this world. Choose wisely.

 

[Astrophile]

The bible says the flood was worldwide and those country names were non-existent when the flood occurred. If that's the best you've got then, as a Flood Denier, you're scraping the bottom of the barrel.

The Bible says, 'the waters of the flood were upon the earth' (Genesis 7:10), 'the waters increased and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth' (Genesis 7:17), 'And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth' (Genesis 7:18), 'And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth: and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered (Genesis 7:19). None of this amounts to a statement that the flood was worldwide.

Also, there are several places where the Bible speaks of 'all countries', 'the nations under the whole heaven', or 'wherever the children of men dwell', where it is obvious that it cannot mean the whole world, and must refer only to the region known to the authors of these books. See Genesis 41:57, Deuteronomy 2:25, 1 Kings 18:10, Daniel 2:38, Ezra 1:2, and Colossians 1:23 for examples. The description of the flood as covering 'all the high hills under the whole heaven' must likewise refer only to the part of the world known to the author of Genesis 7.

In any case, Noah could not have known that the flood was worldwide; the 'waters prevailed upon the earth' for only 150 days (Genesis 7:24), not long enough for a world cruise, and the navigational techniques of the time were not good enough for Noah to be sure of where he was or to set a course for a specific destination.

You said that you were not going to refute claimed objections to the flood that are not in the Bible. My claim is that the flood was not worldwide, and that the claim that it was worldwide is not in the Bible; therefore there is no need for you to try to refute my claim.

 

[Mr Laurier]

.


How would I collect?

Who said you would be collecting?
And a movie clip.
You do know I'm not a stock character in a Hollywood blockbuster... right?

 

[Mr Laurier]

Here are the six fundamentals of our faith:

1. Virgin Birth of Christ
2. Veritable Deity of Christ
3. Vicarious Sacrifice of Christ
4. Victorious Resurrection of Christ
5. Visible Second Coming of Christ
6. Verbal Plenary Inspiration of the Bible

And yes, that would be the Independent Fundamental Baptist faith.

So nothing about a magic boat.

 

[inquiring mind]

I have nothing against the view that the Biblical message is inspired. But if somebody believes every word in the Bible is infallible, the Bible itself refutes this quickly and easily.

Wait a minute... if the message is inspired, therefore infallible wouldn't you say, how can the words used really be in error, however used?

 

[inquiring mind]

Who said you would be collecting?
And a movie clip.
You do know I'm not a stock character in a Hollywood blockbuster... right?

I can tell that... and you better get some bbq sauce that goes well with the common man, billionaires won't last long.

 

[trophy33]

Wait a minute... if the message is inspired, therefore infallible wouldn't you say, how can the words used really be in error, however used?

Easily. You can present general truths without a necessity that every detail you use to describe them must be perfect.

 

[Astrophile]

And, I bet if it rained for more than lets say just 20 days straight, you guys would be fighting for a place on it.

If it rained for only 20 days straight in Britain, we should be worrying about a drought.

 

[Lion IRC]

The bible also says that the Roman census in the time of Jesus' birth was worldwide. Was it?

Sure.
What was the census recording? Tax payers under Roman rule.
Presumably Rome knew where in the world those people were.

Now, in a worldwide flood, water floods low laying lands irrespective of whether there are any Roman taxpayers living there.

WAIT! Why are we comparing the actuarial functions of a census to rainfall?

 

[AV1611VET]

Thats not the point (you probably meant Luke).

Oh, sorry.

 

[AV1611VET]

So nothing about a magic boat.

Nope.

Not even in Genesis 6 - 9.

 

[Mr Laurier]

I can tell that... and you better get some bbq sauce that goes well with the common man, billionaires won't last long.

lol. You do understand that its not the proletariat who are imposing the rule of billionaires on us... right?
Last spring it rained a full and solid 37 days in a row. Rather more than the 20 you insist would have me fighting myself to get to Kentucky.
At no point did I fight myself. I continued to work my shifts, and to walk home after. Never once fighting myself, at all. It never occurred to me to even think about leaving the country, at all.

 

[Lion IRC]

The verse actually says that it was 9 months before any mountain tops were visible. There's the context you ignored

Visible to Noah...from the point on earth where Noah was.
The water could have been receding and the Ark could have been floating in an area where the mountain height was so low that they only became visible late in the timeline...notwithstanding the fact that OTHER mountains on the other side ot the globe were already visible.

THATS a contextual reality of topography.

If you accuse me of dishonesty one more time I'm putting you on ignore.

 

[Bobber]

1. We are not talking about Jesus, but about His citation quoted in gospels written by people (and we know that these authors of gospels have differences even between them), so there is no 100% certainity that all his words are recorded perfectly. We do not have to pretend they are.

I see. So I see you put down you're a Christian (and correct me if I'm wrong but it seems you're of a type that takes Jesus words like you're at a buffet restaurant .....you pick and choose whatever you prefer. You must like some words for why call yourself a Christian. How do you even know that ones you like have any certainty at all if you're picking and choosing? And out of respect to the Almighty God I don't have to pretend ANYTHING. I consider his word a SURE word. 2 Pt1:19

Jesus in that text just acknowledged the flood during the times of Noah. No more details were given.

He would expect that he shouldn't have to! He was clear in everything he said about everything else that he considered the OT and it's accounts legit. Why should Jesus say, now remember the Ark was 500 feet long! If he talked about the creditability of the Noah story in his warnings that should tell you.....he took that exact text as truth!

He was obviously more concerned about the ignorance of people and about their destruction than about technicalities of the story.

These people HAD FAITH as people of Israel in the credibility of the story! You might consider the actual dimension numbers were actually inspired for generations like ours! Their generation wasn't questioning the account. They weren't the people questioning whether it was true. Seeing that was the case you make the point you're wanting to make.

Do you have a proof that these details about the ark are inspired? Or is it just your personal belief?

Jesus had FAITH in the Genesis account and that's good enough for me. I consider him Lord and his words ALL OF THEM are full of authority and truth.

 

[inquiring mind]

lol. You do understand that its not the proletariat who are imposing the rule of billionaires on us... right?
Last spring it rained a full and solid 37 days in a row. Rather more than the 20 you insist would have me fighting myself to get to Kentucky.
At no point did I fight myself. I continued to work my shifts, and to walk home after. Never once fighting myself, at all. It never occurred to me to even think about leaving the country, at all.

Yeah, but the fountains of the deep weren't bursting forth.