Noachian Flood discussion - Bible skeptics vs Lion IRC and friends :)

[AV1611VET]

Todays fundamentalists actually do not understand their Bible,

Why are they fundamentals then?

 

[AV1611VET]

An extraordinary claim, like a worldwide flood, needs extraordinary evidence.

That might be true if I was the one making the claim.

But I'm not.

Someone else is making it in writing, and I'm believing it.

Hints of the flood are more than enough for the believers in a literal bible ...

"Hints"? are you downplaying what was written?

... but those believers should not expect others to concur when the logistics of a worldwide flood rule against it.

Logistics can take a hike.

 

[Speedwell]

That might be true if I was the one making the claim.

You are actually making two claims: that God wrote it and that He wrote it as literal history.

 

[AV1611VET]

You are actually making two claims: that God wrote it and that He wrote it as literal history.

With that logic, are you making the claim He didn't write it?

 

[Frank Robert]

That might be true if I was the one making the claim.

But I'm not.

Someone else is making it in writing, and I'm believing it."Hints"? are you downplaying what was written?Logistics can take a hike.

I am not downplaying what is written in the bible, I am emphasizing it's interpretation as being at the base of beliefs and where mere hints of evidence reinforce those beliefs. I don't disrespect your belief, similarly I don't disrespect different beliefs or logistical evidence.

 

[Mr Laurier]

I read the following on another forum a while back and archived it. Apologies, I did not record the name of the author or the URL, but suffice it to say this is not my own work. I have, however, verified some of the numbers:

A creationist wrote the following:

If mammoths were similar to elephants in their eating habits, they were very remarkable beasts. Consider the following facts about modern elephants:

* Spend 16 to 18 hours a day either feeding or moving toward a source of food or water.
* Consume between 130 to 660 pounds of food each day
* Drink between 16 to 40 gallons of water per day.
* Produce between 310 to 400 pounds of dung per day.​

I replied:

Since most mammoths were larger than modern elephants, these numbers must have been higher for mammoths!
And yet they were at least 2 of them on the ark.

There are at least 6 recognized species of mammoth - so 12 mammoths.

3 species of Asian elephants - 6 of them.

1 species of African elephant. 2 of them.

There are three genera of mastodon, for the YEC's sake we will say that there were only 1 species of each - so 6 of them.

So, at least 26 elephant-sized or larger mammoth-like creatures on your ark.

Lets take averages from your source -

395 pounds of food for each - 10,270 pounds of food a day. They were on the ark for what - about 370* days? So 3.8 million pounds of food.

28 gallons of water - 269,000 gallons of water. Sure, there are claims that they could have used the rain water, but it still needed to be stored at some point. So lets be generous and say 130,000 gallons of water.

355 pounds of dung each, that is 3.4 million pounds of dung.

A typical bail of hay weighs between 75 and 100 pounds - so at least 38,000 bails of hay. A typical hay bail is 2'x2'x4', so they would take up about 608,000 cubic feet of space. A typical tractor trailer can haul about 4,050 cubic feet of material. So, just for food, just for the identified elephant-like mammals on the ark, 600 year old Noah would have needed the equivalent of 150 tractor trailers worth of food.

Then there is the water. A gallon of water takes up about 0.14 cubic feet of space. 18,200 cubit feet for water - another 4.5 trailers worth.

So... JUST for food and water for the low-end estimates of the total number of mammoth/elephant-like mammals that had to have been on the ark, we need 626,200 cubic feet of space.

YECs claim that the ark's internal volume would have been about 1.5 million cubic feet (this ignores floor decking, internal supports, etc.).


So nearly 41% of the entire internal volume of the ark was used up just for food just for the mammoths and their kine!!!

We still have hippos, horses, camels, bison, titanotheres, dinosaurs, etc...

And I did not even mention the dung problem!


This was in response to the claim at that site that Kind=Species. Not that it matters - if we include extant and extinct genera, the problem is actually just as bad if not worse for the literalists, as there are a dozen or more distinct genera of Proboscids.
The only ways the creationist can waffle and wiggle their way out of this jam is to 1. allow for 'Kind' to equal multiple taxonomic ranks as needed; 2. hiding behind God magic.
Neither one helps their cause, if their cause is that there is actual evidence for creation and that the creation tall tales are plausible.
CONCLUSION: The Noah's ark story posits an impossibility and is thus false.

Thanks Aman77 and Heissonear for demonstrating the house of cards in a windstorm that creationism is!
I am predicting no relevant or on-topic responses, if any responses at all, from creationists.
*creation.com claims it was 364 days...​

I made this video addressing the poop problem

 

[Mr Laurier]

There's a solid one in Kentucky.

Lets see it float

 

[Bobber]

The bible also says that the Roman census in the time of Jesus' birth was worldwide. Was it?

For the reason there is some hyperbolic statements in scripture doesn't mean it always is. Context is KING. What needs to be asked if the Flood wasn't world wide why wouldn't God just instruct Noah to get up and move to a different region of the world. Why build a large Ark about 510 feet long, 50 feet high, around 85 feet wide? I mean it's not that God hadn't told people to do this in scripture. ( Gen 11....Gen 12) Why not then? Would have been a lot easier solution right? Except....if there really was going to be a world wide flood.

 

[AV1611VET]

I love your videos.

I made this video addressing the poop problem.

Was this supposed to be a problem?

If so, here's the solution: C2H3NaO2.

Also, are you assuming the Ark was just three dimensional?

 

[Mr Laurier]

Noah had time and materials.
What specifically was he lacking?
Note that he wasn't building a "seagoing vessel".
All the Ark had to do was float.

He was lacking iron. And the technology to build a barn that could both float, and withstand a force 11 storm, with multiple tsunami
The ark had to float and hold together under the worst storm imaginable.

They thought they had 'their own god(s) but.....
[picture of blind men feeling elephant goes here]
Note that I said "theists" not Judeo Christians

They KNEW they had their own gods.
The Hindu faith has its own unique and distinctive global flood account. The world's oldest formal religion, with texts dating back over 4500 years. And gods dating back even longer.

 

[AV1611VET]

For the reason there is some hyperbolic statements in scripture doesn't mean it always is. Context is KING. What needs to be asked if the Flood wasn't world wide why wouldn't God just instruct Noah to get up and move to a different region of the world. Why build a large Ark about 510 feet long, 50 feet high, around 85 feet wide? I mean it's not that God hadn't told people to do this in scripture. ( Gen 11....Gen 12) Why not then? Would have been a lot easier solution right? Except....if there really was going to be a world wide flood.

Also, another good question:

Why was Noah aboard the Ark for over a year, if the Flood was just a local one?

 

[Mr Laurier]

I love your videos.
Was this supposed to be a problem?

If so, here's the solution: C2H3NaO2.

Also, are you assuming the Ark was just three dimensional?

So a modern chemical food preservative somehow fixes a problem that was an issue 4300 years ago, for people who had no way to produce or access this chemical.

 

[Bobber]

An extraordinary claim, like a worldwide flood, needs extraordinary evidence.

I'm thinking the Creator some day might declare to those in creation it was as plain as the nose on your face but mankind sadly didn't want the truth. 2 Pt 3:5,6

 

[AV1611VET]

So a modern chemical food preservative ...

That was solid gold, captain.

You just made a video about a feces problem on the Ark.

I gave the solution as being one of the more powerful feces-dissolving chemicals, and you reference it as a modern chemical food preservative.

Sol lid or um.

You're a cook though, right? so I guess I can see how you would think that right off the bat.

 

[Mr Laurier]

That was solid gold, captain.

You just made a video about a feces problem on the Ark.

I gave the solution as being one of the more powerful feces-dissolving chemicals, and you reference it as a modern chemical food preservative.

Sol lid or um.

You're a cook though, right? so I guess I can see how you would think that right off the bat.

So you turn the poop into a viscus sludge.
It still has to be removed.
All you have done is make the job a little harder

 

[AV1611VET]

It still has to be removed.

 

[Frank Robert]

I'm thinking the Creator some day might declare to those in creation it was as plain as the nose on your face but mankind sadly didn't want the truth. 2 Pt 3:5,6

Belief that a literal reading of the bible is the truth does not make it the truth. I am sure you would say that a belief in a moral, allegorical, or anagogical interpretations does not make them the truth.

 

[AV1611VET]

Belief that a literal reading of the bible is the truth does not make it the truth.

That's right.

Belief that 4 + 4 = 8 isn't what makes 4 + 4 = 8.

4 plus 4 equal 8, whether you believe it or not.

 

[inquiring mind]

Lets see it float

It's in Kentucky, so you'll have to wait on the next worldwide flood, and that's not coming, God assured us of that.

 

[inquiring mind]

He was lacking iron. And the technology to build a barn that could both float, and withstand a force 11 storm, with multiple tsunami
The ark had to float and hold together under the worst storm imaginable.

Yes, now you're getting the picture.