Noachian Flood discussion - Bible skeptics vs Lion IRC and friends :)

[Lion IRC]

9:28? from 9:20 onward it's just the tale of a drunkard

I said Genesis 6:9 thru to Genesis 9:28

 

[Job 33:6]

A friendly, relaxed thread (no micro aggressions) to continue the debate from here...

What is the Falsification for Abiogenesis and Theory of Evolution?

What is the Falsification for Abiogenesis and Theory of Evolution?

I contend that;

a) Bible skeptics who want to debate The Flood deserve sympathy because they really can't argue that its impossible for God to do miracles such as described in the Noachian Flood account. Folks like me have an unfair advantage because we aren't hamstrung by the need to apply strict naturalistic explanations for everything that happened. (Eg. animals cooperatively entering the Ark)

b) The bible itself doesn't declare an exact date for when the Flood event happened. So I'm willing to defend a recent Flood or an extremely ancient Flood. Either can be harmonized with my hermeneutics. Pick either and I'll defend which ever hypothetical date you prefer.

@Mr Laurier
@Ponderous Curmudgeon
@Speedwell
@Subduction Zone
@KomatiiteBIF
@Kylie
@VirOptimus
@Shemjaza

Please note that (in this thread) I'm only offering a defense of what the bible actually says about Noah and The Flood. It's not necessary for me refute claims based on what the bible doesn't say - arguments from silence. (Eg. The bible doesn't assert that all mountain tops were all simultaneously completely covered with water. Neither does it assert that the height of Mt Everest and the depth of the Marianas Trench were the same back then as they are today.)

I would politely ask that any counter-arguments from biology, geology and the fossil record etc be specifically tied to the bible verse which they purport to refute. I love science and the scientific method, but the claim that "abc" proves the flood never happened does not meet this test. You need to show how "abc" falsifies a specific bible passage/verse, not some meta narrative derived from your own exegesis/eisegesis.

Also, quote function. Please let us all try to engage in discussion with each other - not engage with claims made by anonymous straw people or folks who aren't even a part of the discussion. I believe the quote function is the best way to represent the opposing view which you want to critique.

By all means ask me if I agree with Ken Comfort or Ray Ham or Craig William Lane, but don't assume that I necessarily defend every single view held by all Flood Apologists. Likewise, I ought not and do not want to presume that all non-theist counter-apologetics against the bible are motivated by idolatrous adoration of Richard Hitchens or Christopher Dawkins.

I think that one simple observation for this could be that scripture appears to suggest that birds and fish were created simultaneously:

Genesis 1:20-23

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures,(A) and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.”(B) 21 So God created(C) the great creatures of the sea(D) and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it,(E) according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind.(F) And God saw that it was good.(G) 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.”(H) 23 And there was evening, and there was morning(I)—the fifth day.

Then God made land producing animals:

Then Genesis 1:24-32 states:
24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures(A) according to their kindsB) the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so.(C) 25 God made the wild animals(D) according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds.(E) And God saw that it was good.(F)

26 Then God said, “Let us(G) make mankind(H) in our image,(I) in our likeness,(J) so that they may rule(K) over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky,(L) over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created(M) mankind(N) in his own image,(O)
in the image of God(P) he created them;
male and female(Q) he created them.(R)

28 God blessed them and said to them,(S) “Be fruitful and increase in number;(T) fill the earth(U) and subdue it. Rule over(V) the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.(W)”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.(X) 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life(Y) in it—I give every green plant for food.(Z)” And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made,(AA) and it was very good.(AB) And there was evening, and there was morning(AC)—the sixth day.

But then when we examine the order of fossils through superposition of the rock column, birds don't come until after things that walk on land, and fish come before things that walk on land.

I view this scripture as God inspired. I think people historically and perhaps today as well, view fish and birds almost as "lesser" animals than something like a horse or cattle.

And I think that while this scripture is the work of God, I also think that taking it as a literal historical document (at least with respect to the book of Genesis), I think is a mistake.

 

[AV1611VET]

God can do anything. And he knows everything.

That is correct: God is both omnipotent and omniscient.

So he would have known which people would have repented, and saved them, and the ones he knew would not repent he could have sent straight to hell.

Here you go again. You try so hard not to understand, you end up causing more [repetitive] work for the person you're talking to.

Let me reiterate, this time with emphasis:

Those who repented and cried out for salvation in Noah's time went ahead and died, of course, because they had reached the point of no return.

Do you know what the "point of no return" is?

That means that they're going to die, no matter what standing they are in (saved or lost) at the time.

Again, doing it your way would have entailed God saving born again Nephilim and flesh-corrupted people alive, to continue to spread their germs; and would have defeated one of the purposes of the Flood.

There's no point in conducting a test when you know for sure what the outcome will be.

If your intent is to turn red litmus paper blue, you'll take the necessary steps, even if you already know the outcome.

So your argument fails.

I understand.

 

[AV1611VET]

Invoking god(s)/magic/miracles in an science debate is an autoloss.

Believe in miracles.

 

[VirOptimus]

Believe in miracles.

No.

Accept reality.

 

[AV1611VET]

No.

Accept reality.

Why should I accept reality over miracles, when reality has to step aside when a miracle occurs?

See, I can incorporate both into my mindset with my discipline; whereas you can only incorporate what can be empirically verified.

 

[VirOptimus]

Why should I accept reality over miracles, when reality has to step aside when a miracle occurs?

See, I can incorporate both into my mindset with my discipline; whereas you can only incorporate what can be empirically verified.

You dont ”have” to do anything.

Reality will win out whatever you belive.

 

[Job 33:6]

Genesis 7:21-23
21 Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind.(A) 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life(B) in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth.(C) Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.(D)

"1. The whole of the earth was covered in water (7:19-20) and everything not on the ark (or at least of the kinds on the ark, nothing is said about fishes for example) is killed (7:21-23).

There are no global flood layers recorded in the rocks after the first people." -Hans Blaster



With respect to the global flood, I would agree with what is stated above.

This flood hypothetically killed everything but what was on the ark. But the fossil succession suggests that life continued on without any mass extinctions of any such extensive magnitude, at least going back to the paleocene/tertiary.

Which is to say that observations of the creation appear to contradict these passages of Genesis.

 

[Mr Laurier]

Yup.

And that's four times more than there were in Genesis 1.

And 2/3ds the number on an average pyramid block hauling gang.
Like the ones that built the pyramids of Djedkare, and Unas... whose transition falls well within a decade of the proposed date of the bible flood.
And a casual observer will note that Egypt continued to use the same pottery styles, burial rituals, and writing system, through the period. With no disruption.

 

[Speedwell]

And 2/3ds the number on an average pyramid block hauling gang.
Like the ones that built the pyramids of Djedkare, and Unas... whose transition falls well within a decade of the proposed date of the bible flood.
And a casual observer will note that Egypt continued to use the same pottery styles, burial rituals, and writing system, through the period. With no disruption.

As Lion pointed out, The Flood really doesn't have a proposed date. It's just a "once upon a time" story in an old book.

 

[Lion IRC]

...you have no interest in showing that it happened in reality.

Why would I start this thread if I had no interest in defending the historicity of Genesis 6 thru 9?

You claim this biblical account isn't true. Why? Which verse? Where's your counter-evidence?

What you're doing is no different than me arguing that the Battle of Wolf 359 really happened in the Star Trek universe

Do you claim that to be the case? That Battle of Wolf 359 really happened? If you did, and if I cared to refute your claim, I would consider myself obliged to provide some evidence as to why I thought your claim was false.
...commencing with the basic reasoning that Gene Roddenberry, the author of Startrek, and all subsequent writers of Startrek scripts acknowledge that this is science FICTION.

Do you think I am at odds with the author of the bible in thinking Noah was a real person?

You are completely wrong in claiming I have no interest in defending my beliefs.

 

[Lion IRC]

there is *no* evidence of a genetic bottleneck in humans.

Just 8 people....

Yup.
And that's four times more than there were in Genesis 1.

Yes. There actually IS common ancestor evidence of a population bottleneck. And mitochondrial Eve.

 

[VirOptimus]

-snip-


Yes. There actually IS common ancestor evidence of a population bottleneck. And mitochondrial Eve.

No, not in the way that there where ever only two (or 8) people.

 

[Job 33:6]

Just 8 people....



Yes. There actually IS common ancestor evidence of a population bottleneck. And mitochondrial Eve.

To clarify, there is a common ancestor, but this is not to be confused with a total population. I may have a common ancestor with my brother, that is my father, but thats not to be confused with the genetic diversity that I hold, which suggests that there are other populations of people that have lived, beyond my immediate family.

Alternatively two cheetahs may have a common feline ancestor, but their genetic diversity is much more limited and thus they are physically unhealthy and as some might suggest, they may go extinct as a result of this. Though there is also poaching and habitat destruction and farming by people as well.

 

[AV1611VET]

Alternatively two cheetahs may have a common feline ancestor, but their genetic diversity is much more limited and thus they are physically unhealthy and as some might suggest, they may go extinct as a result of this. Though there is also poaching and habitat destruction and farming by people as well.

The way it was explained to me is that cheetahs' DNA is so close, that you can mix and match their organs with no problem at all.

BUT, this has a down side, as they are on the verge of extinction, should a foreign disease plague them.

The flip side is the human being, whose DNA is so unique, that no two humans share the same DNA.

BUT, this has a down side, as you can't even transplant a kidney without its DNA being rejected by the host.

 

[AV1611VET]

Reality will win out whatever you belive.

Reality will run out whatever you believe.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

 

[AV1611VET]

And 2/3ds the number on an average pyramid block hauling gang. Like the ones that built the pyramids of Djedkare, and Unas... whose transition falls well within a decade of the proposed date of the bible flood.

Only on paper.

And a casual observer will note that Egypt continued to use the same pottery styles, burial rituals, and writing system, through the period. With no disruption.

Why wouldn't they? they weren't interrupted by a global flood.

 

[AV1611VET]

It's just a "once upon a time" story in an old book.

That "old book" gets more attention than all other books combined.

Every jot and tittle of It has been analyzed, psychoanalyzed, interpreted, misinterpreted, scrutinized, galvanized and midasized.

 

[DamianWarS]

I'm only offering a defense of what the bible actually says about Noah and The Flood

we should first look at the purpose of the account before we make a judgment as to its accuracy or how widespread it was. It's all good to make a zillion arguments for or against the flood but don't we miss the point when we fail to discuss what the purpose of the account is actually for?

 

[VirOptimus]

Reality will run out whatever you believe.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

No.

And I never read your scripture quotes.