Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

[LoveGodsWord]

However, passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day, Sunday, instead.

None of the scripture you have provided here teach anywhere that the Sabbath is not binding on Chritians in the new testament. To make this claim based on the scriptures you have provided above is eisiegesis (reading into the scriptures what they do not actually say or teach. Let’s look at each of the scriptures you have provided that you believe support a premise that Gods’ 4th commandment is no longer a requirement for Christian in the new testament and add the surrounding scripture contexts back to see if they support your claims

Acts of the Apostles 20:7 [7], And on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached to them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

According to the scriptures in the new testament it was not uncommon for the disciples to gather together every day of the week to break bread and share Gods Word as shown in Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47. So doing so on Sunday according to the scriptures was only another day of the week. The reason we are told that the disciples were gathering together is told in the very scripture you quoted above in Acts of the Apostles 20:7 which was because Paul was leaving the next day. They gathered together for one last meal to share God’s Word because Paul was leaving the next day. There is nothing in this scripture that says Gods’ seventh day Sabbath from God’s 10 commandments is no longer a requirement for Christian living. This is reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say and do not teach (eisiegesis). In fact we already know from Acts of the Apostles 17:2 it was Paul’s custom as was the rest of the disciples to keep the Sabbath according to God’s commandment *Exodus 20:8-11. So Acts of the Apostles 20:7 does not support your premise that Gods’ 4th commandment is no longer a requirement for Christian living and it does not say this anywhere in this scripture.

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 [1], Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do you. [2], On the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God has prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Once again by simply reading what is in the scriptures like we did in the previous scripture from Acts of the Apostles 20:7 there is nothing in this scripture that says God’s 4th commandment of the 10 commandments is no longer a requirement for Christian living just like there is no scripture that says it is ok for us now to lie and steal and commit murder. To claim that 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 is saying that the Sabbath is not binding on Christians in the new testament is reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say and do not teach. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 simply states what it says. Paul was passing though to the Corinthians on His way to Jerusalem (v8).

Let’s dig a little deeper. These two are translations below are representative of the majority of translations and also the Greek.

King James Bible
Upon the {1}. first day of the week let every one of you {2}. lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, {3}. that there be no gatherings when I come.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
{1}. On every Sunday, let each person of you {2}. lay aside in his house and keep that which he can, {3}. so that when I come there will be no collections.

The sections of 1 Corinthians 16:2 are broken down into context order within the scripture for discussion here as marked above in the last two parallel scripture examples above.

So the command given by Paul for the collection of the saints here is that {1} on the first day of the week (every Sunday) let every person {2} lay by him in store - The Greek being παρ ̓ ἑαυτῷ τιθέτω θησαυρίζων par' heautō tithetō thēsaurizōn. Meaning let him lay up at home (by himself), treasuring up as he has been prospered. The Greek phrase, "by himself," means, the same as at home. Let him set it apart by himself at home; let him designate a certain portion; let him do this by himself, when he is at home. Let him set it aside and put it in store, separate it and save it up, as God hath prospered him - The word "God" is not in the original, but it is evidently understood, and necessary to the sense. The word rendered "hath prospered" (εὐοδῶται euodōtai)

Now note the reason here for this command within the scripture is given in the same verse in the last section of the scripture {3} That there be no gatherings when I come - No collections λογίαι logiai, 1 Corinthians 16:1). The apostle means that there should be no trouble in collecting the small sums; that it should all be prepared; that each one might have laid by what he could give; and that all might be ready to be handed over to him, or to whomsoever they might choose to send with it to Jerusalem.

................

CONCLUSION: As shown in the context of 1 Corinthians 16:1-5 and in the within scripture context, 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 was a command given by Paul for the collection of the saints that every man was to put aside money as God had prospered him at home by himself on the first day of the week (Sunday). It was not a Church gathering it was a command to put money aside at home or alone so that when Paul was passing through he could collect all the money on his way to Jerusalem. There is absolutely - nothing, in these scriptures that says Sunday is a Holy day or that God's 4th commandment Sabbath has been abolished is there? To come up with that interpretation one would have to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say and do not teach. Yet this is what you’re claiming here. Something to pray about.

………….

Colossians 2:16-17 [16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [17], Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

In regards to Colossians 2. Where does it say that Colossians 2:16 is talking about God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments when the context is to laws in ordinances v14? You may be interested to know that the Greek word used for laws in "ordinance" in Colossians 2:14 that your referring to is G1378 δόγμα "dogma" and means a "civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law. Gods 4th commandment which we will discuss in detail next is not a law in ordinances but a moral law and part of Gods 10 commandments of our duty of love to God and man *Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8:10; James 2:8-12.

There were however annual ceremonial sabbaths in the yearly (not weekly) Feast days of Leviticus 23. These unlike God's 4th commandment were linked directly to the Feast days and could fall on any day of the week depending on the yearly cycle that were shadows of things to come These annual Feast days are found in; (1) Feast of Unleavened Bread (first and last day) *Leviticus 23:6-8 (2) Feast of Trumpets *Leviticus 23:24-25 (3) Day of Atonement *Leviticus 23:27-32 (4) Feast of Booths *Leviticus 23:34-36 (5) Feast of First Fruits *Leviticus 23:39 (6) Feast days of Holy convocation of no work (sabbaton Colossians 2:16 *Leviticus 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36.

By the way the use of the Greek word for sabbaton in Colossians 2:16 is not to "THE" Sabbath (singular) it is genitive neuter plural to Sabbaths or Sabbath days plural application. It is impossible that Colossians 2:16 is in reference to God's 4th commandment as it a part of the "finished work of creation" *Genesis 2:1-3. There was no sin and no law and no plan of salvation for unfallen man when the Sabbath was made for mankind *Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3.

Now notice something very important. God's 4th commandment does not point forward to things to come *Colossians 2:17 it points backward (Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy - Exodus 20:8). Gods 4th commandment points backwards because it is a memorial of the finished work of creation and the celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth...

Lets look at the commandment that points backward not forwards...

Exodus 20:8-11 [8], REMEMBER the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> {Because it is a memorial looking back to the finished work of creation that JESUS made it a Holy day of rest for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day} [9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: [10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God {This is a direct reference from God's Word defining what the Sabbath is; The SABBATH = the SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK}: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY> [11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT. {Reference is backward not forward to Genesis 2:1-3}

Therefore, it is impossible for God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath to be a "shadow law" as all the "shadow laws" are laws to do with God's plan of salvation from sin after the fall of mankind from the Mosaic book of the law. God's Sabbath was created when there was no sin, no fall, no law and no plan of salvation because mankind was in perfect harmony with God. – So there is nothing there in reference to Gods’ 4th commandment not being a requirement for Christian living in the new testament.

That is enough for now. I look forward to your responses @Danthemailman.

Hope these scriptures are helpful.

 

[RBPerry]

Not only did Miller not come up with the Investigative Judgment - he never agreed to it.

Miller came up with the day for year application of the 2300 days of Dan 8 which ended in his view sometime in the 1843/1844 time frame. (Using the historicist model of protestant reformers)

There was no "Ellen White" at that time - because at that time she was a teenage "Ellen Harmon" who did agree to the 2300 year day-for-year timeline of Miller but was not founder or leader of anything.

Millerites used various terms to express the same concept such as the typical Day of Atonement, breastplate of judgment, announcement of God’s judgment hour, scene of God’s, Christ’s parable of the wedding ceremony, judgment of the “house of God”, the term “Laodicea”, and God’s rewards either for salvation or punishment at the second coming of Christ.

Show me where Miller did not support investigative judgement. I get a kick how you dealt with Elen White, I’m very aware of the fact that she wasn’t married in 1844-45, however that is where she came up with the doctrine.

Miller was a Baptist preacher that kind of went off the deep end with his prophetic message. One must look at what was going on during that period. The world was engaged in world war, many believed that this was Armageddon and Christ return must be imminent. So in one sense I can understand how Miller got carried away with is prophesy based on the 2300 years.

Ellen White embraced investigative judgement and called it one of the foundations of the Adventist faith. There are some Adventist that do not accept the belief, so it seems that belief is problematic in your own camp.

To me it is not a big issue but just one of many that pushed me away. The problem I also have is the many Adventists and mainstream Christians refuse to look outside the box and ignore scientific facts. To me that is foolishness.

 

[BobRyan]

That is not where I thought you were going with that. But let's plug in the definitions and see what we get:

Bob's version:
The field is the world. the good seeds are the church of Christ in the world, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.

My view of what "Christ's Object Lesson" is saying about Matt 13 wheat-vs-tares –


1. Wheat in The Kingdom of Christ, the Church of Christ includes all the children of God in all ages
2. Tares in The Kingdom of Christ, Church of Christ also includes tares that are hard to tell from the wheat – closely entwined roots, similar appearance when sprouting up
3. Tares in the lost world not in anyway linked to the people of God. So there are TWO places that tares are found… not just one.

So then all the lost and all he saved (All the world) is accounted for: At the end of the world – all the “saved” – all the people of God still included as church of Christ – and all the tares are lost – some of whom were at one time in the Church of Christ mingled with wheat

Given that some of the wheat in heaven (in Christ’s Kingdom, Kingdom of heaven) -- never heard the name of Christ – then the “Church of Christ” must have included all the saved..

Matt 13

It is easy to see how tares could be in the world – but the servants “expect no tares” because the owner only sowed wheat. This does not fit the case of a fallen world where God's servants only expect "Wheat"/Sains. This expectation only fits “the kingdom of Christ” , the “Church of Christ”

13:27 ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’​

The fact that the wheat is at risk if the tares are taken out – is another sign this is inside the church of God “Church of Christ” and not out in the world.

13:28 ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ​

Ellen White's version:
The field is the church of Christ in the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one

Jesus' version.

The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.

I am going with Jesus' version.

Matt 13 version

the "sons of the Kingdom" are in the world
the tares are sons of the wicked one
Christ's kingdom has in it - both wheat and tares
servants of God expect only wheat to be in the field
The wheat and tares are so closely linked in appearance etc that to remove tares is to lose wheat .. only at the second coming is it safe (for the wheat) to remove the tares​

"Christ's Object Lessons" version

the "Church of Christ" is in the world (Christ's Kingdom)
the tares are sons of the wicked one
the church of Christ has in it both wheat and tares
servants of God expect only wheat in the church of Christ
The wheat and tares are so closely linked in appearance etc that to remove tares is to lose wheat.. only at the second coming is it safe (for the wheat) to remove the tares
​

Your conclusion is to reject Ellen White's comments. You have free will and I don't object to your right to choose that.

But as for me - I see a distinction without a difference in that comparison.

 

[BobRyan]

Millerites used various terms to express the same concept such as the typical Day of Atonement, breastplate of judgment, announcement of God’s judgment hour, scene of God’s, Christ’s parable of the wedding ceremony, judgment of the “house of God”, the term “Laodicea”, and God’s rewards either for salvation or punishment at the second coming of Christ.

But they thought that "the Son of Man" coming to the Ancient of Days in Dan 7 , and the "sanctuary cleansed" in Dan 8 - was the second coming event. So when calculating the 2300 year timeline their endpoint for it was the second coming - at which point in their view - judgment would happen on Earth with Christ seated on His throne and all the wicked of earth judged and destroyed.

Show me where Miller did not support investigative judgement.

Miller never even heard of it - because that was not promoted until after Oct 22, 1844 - and by that time after October 22 -- Miller no longer associated his views with that of the Oct 22, 1844 solution. He dropped it.

I get a kick how you dealt with Elen White, I’m very aware of the fact that she wasn’t married in 1844-45, however that is where she came up with the doctrine.

Also not true.

1. Nothing from Ellen White says she even knew about the Investigative Judgment as a teen while expecting Miller's prophecy to be correct.
2. Ellen White is not the person who introduced this concept of judgment to Adventists - where Judgment in heaven starts at the end of the 2300 days of Dan 8, and begins with Christ as High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. That was all "news" to the Ellen Harmon of the 1830's and early 1840's until after Oct 22, 1844. Hiram Edson is the one that introduced this to Adventists following the failure of their Oct 22, 1844 expectations.

Hiram Edson - Wikipedia

It is clear that the things you currently think about SDA history simply are not correct -- what I would like to know - is if you ever knew the actual history, such that now you are simply misremembering?

Ellen White embraced investigative judgement and called it one of the foundations of the Adventist faith.

True for Seventh-day Adventists - not true of any of the Millerite Adventists. .None of them would have recognized the term "Investigative Judgment" or the idea that a Judment of any type at all would start in the heavenly sanctuary in 1843, or 1844. Their view was on the subject of the second coming, not an investigative judgment in heaven.

There are some Adventist that do not accept the belief, so it seems that belief is problematic in your own camp.

I can find a tiny group that claim to be adventist and don't accept the Trinity.
I can find a small group that claim to be adventist and don't accept the literal 7 day creation week Sabbath.

That proves absolutely nothing in support of the claim that the SDA denomination rejects the actual voted on and agreed on 28 Fundamental Beliefs statements that address all those topics (- and are voted on by the entire world church every 5 years -). Even Walter Martin agreed to this point in his book.

If one were to base their entire opinion of any given denomination's actual position - based what is said by a handful of dissidents - almost any wild claim could be argued. As Martin points out - and this is why he rejected that method in general for all of his topics and all groups he reviewed.

 

[BobRyan]

To me it is not a big issue but just one of many that pushed me away. The problem I also have is the many Adventists and mainstream Christians refuse to look outside the box and ignore scientific facts. To me that is foolishness.

?? what "scientific facts"??

 

[RBPerry]

?? what "scientific facts"??

Want to start with dietary beliefs. Here are some facts
Dietary: Vegitarian, Vegan, Pescatarian, Flexitarian, and diets such as the Mediterranean

So what are the other diets, Vegan is vegetarian but also restricts eggs, milk, and cheese, basically all food from animals. The Pescatarian diet includes fish and sea food. The Mediterranean diet includes meats in small amounts and is very balanced and seems to be one of the healthiest diets. I prefer not to use the word diet but replace it with eating habits.

One of the first things you will hear is that people on vegetarian diets live longer than meat the average meat eater, and this is true statistically. As we all know statistics can lie, and liars will use statistics

So why is it that those who eat meat products have shorter life spans? It is about balance, most meat eaters eat too much meat and too little vegetables and fruit. Spain has one of the highest life expediency averages in the world, their primary diet is Mediterranean.

Some claim eating certain meats such as pork products is a sin according to the bible. Why is that, and is it true?

What about alcohol, does it have any health benefits in moderation? Is it biblically wrong to drink alcohol products? Let’s look at the facts of moderate consumption.

1. Alcohol raises your HDL, good cholesterol 25 to 40%

2. Helps eliminate kidney stones. 41% with beer drinkers 33% with wine.

3. Most who consume alcohol exercise more.

4. Wine is brain healthy.

5. Normally improves moods

What about coffee, another taboo with certain people. Well there are several benefits of coffee.

1. Boosts performance.

2. Helps with weight lose

3. Burns fat

4. More focused and alert

5. Lowers death risk.

6. Lowers risk of strokes.

7. Lowers risk of Parkinson’s disease.

8. It is a antioxidant.

9. May lower type 2 diabetes

10. Protects the brain.

11. Brightens mood.


The problem with strict vegetarian is most don’t get a proper balance of needed nutriments.

1. Legume protein sources can increase risk of leaky gut

2. Soy protein sources can cause hormone disruptions and higher heavy metal intake.

3. Risk of anemia due to a lack of hemi iron

4. Increased risk of depression with low omega-3 fatty acid intake

5. Risk of Vitamin B12 deficiency

6. Inhibition of zinc absorption on vegan and vegetarian diets

7. Risk of consuming too many carbohydrates

8. Risk of disordered eating

So I know there is two sides to every story, so how about we talk about the other opinions and hopefully supported by scientific facts.

 

[BobRyan]

Ellen White embraced investigative judgement and called it one of the foundations of the Adventist faith.

That part of your post I do agree with - but the history / sequence etc in your post does not fit the actual history where it is Hiram Edson and not a 17 year old Ellen Harmon that presents the Investigative Judgment concept to the early Millerite Adventists in October of 1844. (Not even Seventh-day Adventists yet).

The timing for the Investigative Judgment is determined specifically in Daniel 8 and 9 (and more generally by Daniel 7).

However - the Bible details for the Investigative Judgment (to define exactly what it is according to the Bible ) is in Romans 2:4-16, Daniel 7, 2Cor 5:10 combined with the Day of Atonement teaching of Lev 16 about Christ.

When this doctrine is presented to people taking Bible studies with Adventists and one must prove the entire doctrine from scratch taking nothing for granted , nothing as "assumed" in favor of it - other than "sola scriptura testing" - the texts I have here show how it is always done. (Only my post is much shorter than the texts they go through for this doctrine).

The is no such thing in Adventist Bible studies as "first accept Ellen White as a real prophet of God - then read what she was told about the Investigative Judgment so you can believe in it".. no such thing. Nor have any SDA students been told in their Bible classes that this is how Adventists found out about the Investigative Judgment.

 

[BobRyan]

Want to start with dietary beliefs. Here are some facts
Dietary: Vegitarian, Vegan, Pescatarian, Flexitarian, and diets such as the Mediterranean

So what are the other diets, Vegan is vegetarian but also restricts eggs, milk, and cheese, basically all food from animals. The Pescatarian diet includes fish and sea food. The Mediterranean diet includes meats in small amounts and is very balanced and seems to be one of the healthiest diets. I prefer not to use the word diet but replace it with eating habits.

One of the first things you will hear is that people on vegetarian diets live longer than meat the average meat eater, and this is true statistically. As we all know statistics can lie, and liars will use statistics

So why is it that those who eat meat products have shorter life spans? It is about balance, most meat eaters eat too much meat and too little vegetables and fruit. Spain has one of the highest life expediency averages in the world, their primary diet is Mediterranean.

Some claim eating certain meats such as pork products is a sin according to the bible. Why is that, and is it true?

What about alcohol, does it have any health benefits in moderation? Is it biblically wrong to drink alcohol products? Let’s look at the facts of moderate consumption.

1. Alcohol raises your HDL, good cholesterol 25 to 40%

2. Helps eliminate kidney stones. 41% with beer drinkers 33% with wine.

3. Most who consume alcohol exercise more.

4. Wine is brain healthy.

5. Normally improves moods

What about coffee, another taboo with certain people. Well there are several benefits of coffee.

1. Boosts performance.

2. Helps with weight lose

3. Burns fat

4. More focused and alert

5. Lowers death risk.

6. Lowers risk of strokes.

7. Lowers risk of Parkinson’s disease.

8. It is a antioxidant.

9. May lower type 2 diabetes

10. Protects the brain.

11. Brightens mood.


The problem with strict vegetarian is most don’t get a proper balance of needed nutriments.

1. Legume protein sources can increase risk of leaky gut

2. Soy protein sources can cause hormone disruptions and higher heavy metal intake.

3. Risk of anemia due to a lack of hemi iron

4. Increased risk of depression with low omega-3 fatty acid intake

5. Risk of Vitamin B12 deficiency

6. Inhibition of zinc absorption on vegan and vegetarian diets

7. Risk of consuming too many carbohydrates

8. Risk of disordered eating

So I know there is two sides to every story, so how about we talk about the other opinions and hopefully supported by scientific facts.

hmm. Adventists occupy one of 5 blue zones on planet Earth

Loma Linda, California - Blue Zones.

"Today, a community of about 9,000 Adventists in the Loma Linda area are the core of America’s blue zone region. They live as much as a decade longer than the rest of us, and much of their longevity can be attributed to vegetarianism and regular exercise. Plus, Adventists don’t smoke or drink alcohol.
"

What in the world is…a Blue Zone? | Adventist Health

"Residents of Blue Zones (five regions in Europe, Latin America, Asia and the U.S.) share certain lifestyle characteristics that enable them to live to 100 years old."

that website also reports this -

"Blue Zones have the highest concentrations of centenarians in the world, and the primary reason for this is that they’ve adopted healthy diets and active lifestyles, and above all else, they place high value on social wellness and spirituality. In his book The Blue Zones, Dan Buettner researched and evaluated communities around the world that hosted higher levels of 100-year-old residents. His goal was to uncover the specific factors that these communities shared so that everyone, all over the world, could learn from them. After completing his research, Buettner labeled only five communities as official “Blue Zones”: Ikaria, Greece; Okinawa, Japan; Sardinia, Italy; Nicoya Peninsula, Costa Rica; and Loma Linda, California."

============================

As for the "science" behind those proven results -

Here is a suggestion for the Caffeine solution and science - studies that prove the point.

20+ Harmful Effects of Caffeine.

 

[RBPerry]

I'm very aware of the blue zone and the average health of Adventist. I'm also aware that some Adventist eating habits aren't in their best interest, meaning they don't get proper balance of vitamins and minerals. This can only be accurately evaluated by blood tests.
When you look at the average American for instance most are overweight and have terrible eating habits so consequently their health and longevity will be effected negatively.
I'm not saying that a vegetarian eating habit is unhealthy if done properly, but studies have proven that the Mediterranean is healthier.

Those potential effects of caffeine aren't accurate and I'm not sure when those studies were done. Also again, proper balance is the key like anything else. Many heavy coffee drinkers actually lose any positive effects by overdosing on caffeine and sugar.

We also know that genetics has an effect on longevity. As I stated previously, my cousin was an avid vegetarian and Adventist, died at 37 of cancer.

The other issue is that many meat eaters are also or had been smokers and that is a killer as we all know. People that keep their BMI close to recommendations and get proper exercise have the same chance at long healthy life as a vegetarian.

I noticed you didn't address the alcohol issue, again in moderation does have health benefits, as with other things, excessive brings on negative effects.

Pork products are no longer a danger as they once were as long as they are cooked properly and again in moderation.

I don't look at life longevity as much as I do quality of life. Many in their late eighties and nineties are sitting in rest homes with nothing to do 24/7, that is not quality of life. As for life, we are all just passing through and when you think of eternity our earthly age is of little importance.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I'm very aware of the blue zone and the average health of Adventist. I'm also aware that some Adventist eating habits aren't in their best interest, meaning they don't get proper balance of vitamins and minerals. This can only be accurately evaluated by blood tests.
When you look at the average American for instance most are overweight and have terrible eating habits so consequently their health and longevity will be effected negatively.
I'm not saying that a vegetarian eating habit is unhealthy if done properly, but studies have proven that the Mediterranean is healthier.

Those potential effects of caffeine aren't accurate and I'm not sure when those studies were done. Also again, proper balance is the key like anything else. Many heavy coffee drinkers actually lose any positive effects by overdosing on caffeine and sugar.

We also know that genetics has an effect on longevity. As I stated previously, my cousin was an avid vegetarian and Adventist, died at 37 of cancer.

The other issue is that many meat eaters are also or had been smokers and that is a killer as we all know. People that keep their BMI close to recommendations and get proper exercise have the same chance at long healthy life as a vegetarian.

I noticed you didn't address the alcohol issue, again in moderation does have health benefits, as with other things, excessive brings on negative effects.

Pork products are no longer a danger as they once were as long as they are cooked properly and again in moderation.

I don't look at life longevity as much as I do quality of life. Many in their late eighties and nineties are sitting in rest homes with nothing to do 24/7, that is not quality of life. As for life, we are all just passing through and when you think of eternity our earthly age is of little importance.

The facts testify against much of your claims here. If Adventists are living between 10-15 years longer with a better quality of life, than people eating a normal meat diet they must be doing something right. I think I shared with you elsewhere I personally know meat eaters having vitamin B12 deficiencies and need to have clinical injections yet their diets are very pro-meat.

Also, I am aware we cannot make blanket claims to friends that may or may not be vegetarians or meat eaters as there are many other things that can impact on general health beside diet that I will list below. Also, genes play a big part in why we get sick or not sick (50% is inherited genetically and 50% environment and what we choose to do or where we live).

For me personally though, I have been a vegetarian for some 30+ years eating a diet of mainly fruits, nuts, grains, legumes and vegetables based on God's original diet for mankind in Genesis 1 and people always tell me I look much younger than my age. I don't have any problems with B12 or other vitamins, I am generally more healthier than most people my age and I have a good quality of life.

We can also look that example of Daniel and His friends when they refused the foods of the world in the book of Daniel when they rejected the kings diet to instead eat vegetables and how they where also much healthier than anyone else in the kings palace.

Is health all about diet? Nope but sure it is a big part. I believe there are 8 important laws of health that work together to give us good health. I remember them by putting them in the words NEW START (not mine but something made in the SDA Church for some time)

1. Nutrition. A healthy diet of fruits, nuts, grains, legumes and vegetables is God's original diet (Gen 1)
2. Exercise. We can get sick even if we are on a good diet if we do not exercise.
3. Water. We can get sick if we do not drink enough pure clean water.

4. Sunshine. Everyone knows the importance sunshine has on health and well-being and Vit D group
5. Temperance. Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing even if it is based on health.
6. Air. Of course fresh air will impact on our health.
7. Rest. Not getting enough rest will also cause sickness is well documented.
8. Trust and of course none of the above is of any use if we do not trust and rely on God.

I think the facts to all of the above in this post speak for themselves and are proven scientifically.

Blessings.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm very aware of the blue zone and the average health of Adventist.

And you take that as "just so happens"?? Rather than science observations in nature confirming the 8 laws of health that Adventists follow?

I'm also aware that some Adventist eating habits aren't in their best interest, meaning they don't get proper balance of vitamins and minerals.

not getting vitamins and minerals does not lead to "extra long life" where quality of life at the end is much better than average so it is not just "longevity" -- as it turns out.

When you look at the average American for instance most are overweight and have terrible eating habits so consequently their health and longevity will be effected negatively.

no doubt.

I'm not saying that a vegetarian eating habit is unhealthy if done properly, but studies have proven that the Mediterranean is healthier.

Healthier "than what"? - than the examples of living 10 years longer with better quality of life??

Those potential effects of caffeine aren't accurate and I'm not sure when those studies were done.

Without you actually knowing about the studies - it is hard to take your point seriously --

Caffeine is neither a vitamin, or mineral, or food or medicine... it is a drug pure and simple (a psychoactive drug). So that means it targets the central nervous system not just the veins, arteries, kidneys and liver.

Common side effects of that "drug" are - irritability, jitters, anxiety, rapid heart rate, and insomnia.

We also know that genetics has an effect on longevity. As I stated previously, my cousin was an avid vegetarian and Adventist, died at 37 of cancer.

Which apparently was not the "overall observed result" when taking a population group such as those at Loma Linda.

Pork products are no longer a danger as they once were as long as they are cooked properly and again in moderation.

Well let's look at the "science" - the observations in nature. How many people are observed to have trichinosis?


The classical agent is T. spiralis (found worldwide in many carnivorous and omnivorous animals, both domestic and sylvatic (wild), but seven primarily sylvatic species of Trichinella also are now recognized:

Species and characteristics

• T. spiralis is most adapted to swine, most pathogenic in humans, and is cosmopolitan in distribution.
• T. britovi is the second-most common species to infect humans; it is distributed throughout Europe, Asia, and northern and western Africa, usually in wild carnivores, crocodiles, birds, wild boar, and domesticated pigs.
• T. murrelli also infects humans, especially from black bear meat; it is distributed among wild carnivores in North America.
• T. nativa, which has a high resistance to freezing, is found in the Arctic and subarctic regions; reservoir hosts include polar bears, Arctic foxes, walruses, and other wild game.
• T. nelsoni, found in East African predators and scavengers, has been documented to cause a few human cases.
• T. papuae infects both mammals and reptiles, including crocodiles, humans, and wild and domestic pigs; this species, found in Papua New Guinea and Thailand, is also nonencapsulated.[16]
• T. pseudospiralis infects birds and mammals, and has demonstrated infection in humans;[17] it is a nonencapsulated species.
• T. zimbabwensis can infect mammals, and possibly humans; this nonencapsulated species was detected in crocodiles in Africa.[1]

Trichinosis

Trichinella spiralis is a viviparous[1] nematode parasite, occurring in rodents, pigs, bears, hyenas and humans, and is responsible for the disease trichinosis. It is sometimes referred to as the "pork worm" due to it being typically encountered in undercooked pork products. It should not be confused with the distantly related pork tapeworm.

So I am not at all convinced that "the science" as you are pointing us to - is in favor of -- "no risk here" conclusions when it comes to trichinosis.

And that is without any consideration of cholesterol from animal fat, animal protein, steroids and antibiotics in animals used for food.

May 6, 2020
https://www.ars.usda.gov/news-event...eze-resistant-trichinella-species-discovered/

"Worldwide, about 10,000 infections occur a year.[6] At least 55 countries including the United States, China, Argentina, and Russia have had recently documented cases.[5] While the disease occurs in the tropics, it is less common there.[5]

"Also called trichiniasis and trichinelliasis, trichinosis is a chronic infection that occurs worldwide. It's especially common in populations that eat pork or bear meat.

"Trichinosis may produce multiple symptoms; respiratory, central nervous system (CNS), and cardiovascular complications; and, rarely, death. In the United States trichinosis usually is mild.

Causes
People get trichinosis when they eat infected meat — such as bear, walrus, horse or pork — that is undercooked. In nature, carnivores are infected when they feed on other infected animals. Pigs and horses can become infected with trichinosis when they feed on uncooked garbage containing infected meat scraps. Other cases have been linked to eating beef that was mixed with infected pork or ground in a grinder previously used for contaminated pork. Due to increased regulation of pork feed and products, pigs are now a less common source of infection. In recent years, bear meat has become the most common cause of trichinosis in the United

Symptoms and Signs
Symptoms of trichinosis range from very mild to severe and can include:

• Abdominal pain
• Diarrhea or constipation
• Fever
• Chills
• Muscle soreness
• Headaches
• Eye swelling

 

[BobRyan]

I don't look at life longevity as much as I do quality of life. Many in their late eighties and nineties are sitting in rest homes with nothing to do 24/7, that is not quality of life. As for life, we are all just passing through and when you think of eternity our earthly age is of little importance.

one of my grandfather's lived to be over 100 and was climbing on his roof putting down shingles in his late 70's and 80's - for his 80's and 90s mostly hiking in the woods and pursuing his hobby of harvesting plants for sale as nutrition supplements. My wife also had a grandfather that lived past 100.

 

[tall73]

Millerites used various terms to express the same concept such as the typical Day of Atonement, breastplate of judgment, announcement of God’s judgment hour, scene of God’s, Christ’s parable of the wedding ceremony, judgment of the “house of God”, the term “Laodicea”, and God’s rewards either for salvation or punishment at the second coming of Christ.

Show me where Miller did not support investigative judgement. I get a kick how you dealt with Elen White, I’m very aware of the fact that she wasn’t married in 1844-45, however that is where she came up with the doctrine.

Miller was a Baptist preacher that kind of went off the deep end with his prophetic message. One must look at what was going on during that period. The world was engaged in world war, many believed that this was Armageddon and Christ return must be imminent. So in one sense I can understand how Miller got carried away with is prophesy based on the 2300 years.

Don't have a lot of time at the moment, and will try to get to the other posts when I can. However, to build on what Bob said, Miller had a number of proofs that pointed towards what he believed to be the timing of the second advent of Jesus, with the 2300 days timeline being only one of them.

He at first did not connect it to a single day based on the Day of Atonement, but later got on board with the 7 month movement that Snow, etc. started which pointed to Oct. 22, 1844. His proof regarding the 2300 days always pointed to the cleansing of the sanctuary. However, Miller saw the cleansing of the sanctuary as the earth, and saw it cleansed with fire at the second coming. So the notion of the start of a second compartment ministry as the Seventh-day Adventists settled on was not part of his teaching.

I referenced earlier in the thread, and Bob did now as well, that Hiram Edson was the first to indicate a move to the most holy place as the explanation for what happened in 1844 the day after the great disappointment. I linked earlier to the formulation of these ideas drawn up by Crosier, etc. that was later then endorsed by Ellen White.

Ellen White embraced investigative judgement and called it one of the foundations of the Adventist faith.

That is correct. Miller, however, did not accept either the idea that Jesus went into the Most Holy Place in 1844, or what eventually became the investigative judgment teaching.

The idea investigative judgment was itself a later development. For a while they did not include the aspect of reviewing all of the cases of professed followers of God to the Most Holy Place ministry. They initially thought Jesus' stay in the MHP would be brief. Some began to propose that there would be an investigation of all cases prior to the resurrection of the righteous. But this took a while to be accepted. In fact, here is a statement in which James White was rejecting this notion some time after the disappointment.

James White's and Joseph Bates' writings in book: 'A Word to the Little Flock'

It is not necessary that the final sentence should be given before the first resurrection, as some have taught; for the names of the saints are written in heaven, and Jesus, and the angels will certainly know who to raise, and gather to the New Jerusalem.

 

[bbbbbbb]

one of my grandfather's lived to be over 100 and was climbing on his roof putting down shingles in his late 70's and 80's - for his 80's and 90s mostly hiking in the woods and pursuing his hobby of harvesting plants for sale as nutrition supplements. My wife also had a grandfather that lived past 100.

And just last year my cousin-once-removed passed away two day shy of her 104th birthday. She never had the slightest inclination of restricting her diet according to the SDA interpretation of the OT dietary law.

 

[BobRyan]

hmm. Adventists occupy one of 5 blue zones on planet Earth

Loma Linda, California - Blue Zones.

"Today, a community of about 9,000 Adventists in the Loma Linda area are the core of America’s blue zone region. They live as much as a decade longer than the rest of us, and much of their longevity can be attributed to vegetarianism and regular exercise. Plus, Adventists don’t smoke or drink alcohol.
"

What in the world is…a Blue Zone? | Adventist Health

"Residents of Blue Zones (five regions in Europe, Latin America, Asia and the U.S.) share certain lifestyle characteristics that enable them to live to 100 years old."

that website also reports this -

"Blue Zones have the highest concentrations of centenarians in the world, and the primary reason for this is that they’ve adopted healthy diets and active lifestyles, and above all else, they place high value on social wellness and spirituality. In his book The Blue Zones, Dan Buettner researched and evaluated communities around the world that hosted higher levels of 100-year-old residents. His goal was to uncover the specific factors that these communities shared so that everyone, all over the world, could learn from them. After completing his research, Buettner labeled only five communities as official “Blue Zones”: Ikaria, Greece; Okinawa, Japan; Sardinia, Italy; Nicoya Peninsula, Costa Rica; and Loma Linda, California."

============================

As for the "science" behind those proven results -

Here is a suggestion for the Caffeine solution and science - studies that prove the point.

20+ Harmful Effects of Caffeine.

BobRyan said: ↑
one of my grandfather's lived to be over 100 and was climbing on his roof putting down shingles in his late 70's and 80's - for his 80's and 90s mostly hiking in the woods and pursuing his hobby of harvesting plants for sale as nutrition supplements. My wife also had a grandfather that lived past 100.

And just last year my cousin-once-removed passed away two day shy of her 104th birthday.

I am wondering how many people just have "two cousins-once-removed" the way so many people have "two grandfathers not-removed"

And how many people could fill a community of 9000 people with their "104 year old cousins once removed"?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I am wondering how many people just have "two cousins-once-removed" the way so many people have "two grandfathers not-removed"

And how many people could fill a community of 9000 people with their "104 year old cousins once removed"?

Although such terminology may seem odd and arcane, it is a precise statement of relationship. My first cousin is the child of my aunt and uncle. My child is the first cousin of that same individual, but removed in the relationship by one generation.

My second cousin would be the grandchild of my great aunt and great uncle. Their child would be my parent's first cousin and my first cousin, but once removed in the relationship.

Longevity is common in our family.

 

[tall73]

Hello Tall nice to see you,

You as well.

Note: COL does not say that the field is not the world. It says that we must understand these scriptures as signifying the Church of Christ that is in the world.

You quoted it.

"The field," Christ said, "is the world." But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world.

Jesus said the field is the world. She says we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world.

Ellen White's version:
We must understand the field to signify the church of Christ in the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one

Jesus' version.

The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.

Those are not thee same, and it changes the scope.

I may not stay for much for this discussion as I see it as a lot of SOP taken from context to try and make it say things it is not saying and I think we have had these discussions before in the past.

Feel free to weigh in when you like. Though in this particular case I presented this more as an exercise. Before we brought up Ellen White we looked at the Scriptures and Bob stated what he saw there. Then we looked at Ellen White's comments to see how Bob's matched up, and how Bob, as an Adventist, handles the relation between Ellen White comments and the Scripture.

 

[tall73]

My view of what "Christ's Object Lesson" is saying about Matt 13 wheat-vs-tares –


1. Wheat in The Kingdom of Christ, the Church of Christ includes all the children of God in all ages
2. Tares in The Kingdom of Christ, Church of Christ also includes tares that are hard to tell from the wheat – closely entwined roots, similar appearance when sprouting up
3. Tares in the lost world not in anyway linked to the people of God. So there are TWO places that tares are found… not just one.

Alright, let's look at that.

the Church of Christ includes all the children of God in all ages

When you state that you are speaking of the church in the universal sense, correct? So for instance, some texts talk about the churches in Galatia, or the church that meets in Philemon's home, or the churches in Judea, etc. But other texts talk about all of the redeemed. For instance:

Matthew 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Ephesians 1:22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

Colossians 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

But there are not tares in the universal church. There are in the various local churches. So which are you indicating here?

COL states:

Christ's servants are grieved as they see true and false believers mingled in the church. They long to do something to cleanse the church.

This is not describing the universal church, but the church as we see it in the various places, including those who are not true believers.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Ellen White's version: We must understand the field to signify the church of Christ in the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one

Jesus' version. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.

Those are not thee same, and it changes the scope.

Hello Tall73,

Please forgive me if I respectfully disagree with your claims here that the two statement above from Jesus and the SOP do not agree with each other. As posted from my earlier post showing the scripture context and comparing them to the SOP we can see that there is complete agreement in post # 550 linked which you did not really address here.

As shown earlier through the scriptures already provided.

1. Jesus is the one that sows the good seed (Word of God) - Matthew 13:37
2. He says that he sows the good seed in the field which represents the world - Matthew 13:38
3. The good seed (wheat) are the children of the kingdom - Matthew 13:38
4. The bad seed (tares or weeds) represent the children of the wicked one - Matthew 13:37
5. The enemy represents the devil who sowed the bad seed (tares or weeds) among the good seed (children of the kingdom) - Matthew 13:39
6. The harvest is the end of the world - Matthew 13:40
7. The separation of the wheat and the tares that are growing together side by side in the field of the world are separated from out of His Kingdom that is in the world - Matthew 13:41

So the scriptures can read like this...

Matthew 13:24-30 [24], Another parable put he forth to them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened to a man which sowed good seed in his field {Jesus plants the Word of God in the world}:[25], But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way . [26], But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also {the children of God and the children from the devil are growing together side by side in his kingdom which is in the world}.[27], So the servants {Angels who do the reaping of the Harvest at the second coming} of the householder came and said to him, Sir, did not you sow good seed in your field? from where then has it tares? [28], He said to them, An enemy has done this. The servants said to him, Will you then that we go and gather them up? [29], But he said, No; lest while you gather up the tares, you root up also the wheat with them.[30], Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather you {The separation of the wheat and the tares that are growing together side by side in the field of the world are separated from out of His Kingdom that is in the world}

So if we read the scriptures here we can see from their context agrees with the SOP from COL that we are discussing the "Kingdom of God" that is in the world. The wheat and the tares here are the children of God growing together with the children of the devil that are separated at the second coming (Matthew 13:41).

COL does not say that the field is not the world. It says that we must understand these scriptures as signifying the Church of Christ that is in the world. This agrees to the context of the scriptures as shown above where the scripture context state that the wheat (children of God) and the tares (children of the devil) grow together side by side and at the second coming that Children of the devil are separated out of Gods kingdom that is in the world.

These scriptures from Matthew 13 and the SOP comments in regards to the the wheat growing together with the tares in God's kingdom in the world representing the Church also agree with the following scriptures...

TARES GROWING TOGETHER WITH THE WHEAT IN THE CHURCH (from Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43)

Matthew 7:21-23 [21], Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? [23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

(Note here the second coming is the context of Matthew 7:21-23 the harvest is the end of the world - Matthew 13:30)

2 Peter 2:1-3 [1], But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privately shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. [2], And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. [3], And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.

Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 [29], For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. [30], Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

None of the above are "unbelievers" outside of God's Church (God's Kingdom in the World) but those who are represented in the parable of Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43 as tares in God's kingdom in the world growing side by side with the wheat in the Church. What the tares have in common though with "unbelievers" in the world that they are indeed children of the devil and they sin (practice iniquity) or break God's commandments.

.................

I am not one for commentaries for rarely do the commentators agree among themselves. but for what it's worth there are others that agree with the scripture view presented above.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
The Son of man shall send forth his angels,.... Meaning himself, whose ministers the angels are; who wait upon him, and are at his beck and command; even the thousand thousands that minister unto him; these will be sent forth by his orders, into the several parts of the world, where he has any churches, or an interest, and they shall gather out of his kingdom: the Gospel church, over which Christ is king, where he rules and governs in the hearts of his people; and who are cheerfully and willingly obedient to his laws, under the influence of his Spirit and grace: but all who are in the visible Gospel church state, are not such; some are wicked and rebellious, and though they are suffered to continue, yet not always; for if not removed by censures and excommunications, they will be at last by angels; who will separate them from the saints: even all things that offend; who are scandals to Christ, his church, and Gospel, by their wicked principles, or infamous practices; and who give offense, not only to God, and his righteous law, but lay stumbling blocks in the way of the children of God, and are the authors of divisions and offenses among them: and them that do iniquity; that do nothing else but iniquity; and who, though they profess to be religious persons, are secretly, or openly, workers of iniquity; and are even doing iniquity, in and whilst they are professing religion.

.....................

Just wondering why you did not answer my earlier question to you. The last time we spoke you were a Sabbath keeper. Are you still a "seventh day" Sabbath keeper today according to Exodus 20:8-11?

Hope this is helpful

 

[tall73]

Hello Tall73,

Please forgive me if I respectfully disagree with your claims here that the two statement above from Jesus and the SOP do not agree with each other. As posted from my earlier post showing the scripture context and comparing them to the SOP we can see that there is complete agreement in post # 550 linked which you did not really address here.

I addressed one part, because you refused to accept what she stated in plain English. The rest is just how you make it work once you did that.

I did read the rest. And we may have time to go over it. But I am waiting for Bob's response as I think that will help.