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Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

BobRyan

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As for her visions and supporting witnesses that is nothing new, the Buddhist have been doing the same thing for centuries seeking enlightenment.

A lot of atheists view the Christian Bible that way and Christianity that way in general. It is a common form of suggestion. But the real question is "what does the Bible actually say" is the role of the Christian when a prophet of God is encountered? Do they do the 1 John 4:1-4 kind of "testing" sola scriptura or do they simply respond with "all prophets must be bad unless they lived 2000 years ago"? What does the Bible actually say?
 
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BobRyan

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What if those who said her teachings are in harmony with scriptures were already followers of her teaching?

Well the group started off at about 50, grew to 120, then a million then 20 million so it is hard to imagine that it only consisted of people that were already Adventist.
 
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BobRyan

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Also the Gospel gives us the account of the life of Jesus any additional information is just speculations.

The Genesis account gave us information on Abraham and Noah.

But in the NT we find that Noah was a "preacher of righteousness" and that Abraham "Saw My day" as Christ said in John 8 - "and was glad".

So more information about the characters we already were informed about in the OT text - appeared later in the NT.

How did that happen?

2 Peter 1:19-20 "20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture becomes a matter of someone’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

The Holy Spirit "told them". Turns out the Holy Spirit is God and has infinite knowledge... and the bible is not an exhaustive account of every word spoken by Christ or in the OT ages. In fact John is quite adamant that we were not told all the details.

John 21 "25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did, which, if they were written in detail, I expect that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written."

The "exhaustive account ... no more details for God to relay" suggestion does not survive John 21.

But I do agree with you that we have a lot of information in both the OT and NT
 
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Freth

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So according to you, EG White purpose was to bring God to the world and to raise up a church to do the same...

Isn't that is Jesus Christ purpose to the world...(Emmanuel "God is with us") also that He will raise up His church on this earth..

She published books that went to the world, did she not? I think it's safe to say that her writings did bring God to the world (133 languages). Her writings are extensive and, no doubt, thousands, if not millions of people have read her work and come to God through them. Ellen wrote "Steps to Christ" (just one of many such books). Who is that pointing to? Jesus, not Ellen. Inferring that I elevated her to Jesus status is a bit much, I think, considering all of my post history.

And with that, I'm off to other threads. God bless!
 
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RBPerry

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If you think that some who are following your posting in your local circle do not have a foundation in Christ, then yes, this might be counter-productive for some.

On the other hand, I think that ship sailed already. They are apparently watching now. What are the concerns they express?

If they are Adventists it is doubtful they have escaped various issues that are discussed here. If they are not, I think there have been enough assurances that we are not considering people to be outside of Christ by virtue of their denominational affiliation.

The people I'm referring to are all Adventist. The other side of the family are Masons so I can't win for losing. It has never been said, but implied many times in the past. I'm non denominational and I think that is a thorn in their side.

Concerns are Saturday sabbath, dietary, and my studies that are outside any Christian theology such as near death experiences, and some of the discussions we have had along those lines. My dad went from agnostic to SDA so for his sake I'm glad he did, mom and her mother were always SDA.

The Mason side of the family were once Catholic until my grandfathers child died and the priest said he would pray the child out of hell for thirty five dollars, that was during the depression. That ended their relationship with the Catholic church, actually ended their relationship with Christ in my opinion.
 
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BobRyan

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All Prophets and Apostles throughout the Bible prophesied regarding to the second coming, Millenium etc they also gives us warning...

A lot of OT prophets spoke of the coming Messiah - God still sent John to give last minute details right down to the point of letting everyone know that it was the carpenter from Nazareth standing near the Jordan that was the Messiah. And the sign of the dove was the Holy Spirit - the sign that God was pointing to Jesus as the Messiah.
 
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tall73

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The people I'm referring to are all Adventist. The other side of the family are Masons so I can't win for losing. It has never been said, but implied many times in the past. I'm non denominational and I think that is a thorn in their side.

Concerns are Saturday sabbath, dietary, and my studies that are outside any Christian theology such as near death experiences, and some of the discussions we have had along those lines. My dad went from agnostic to SDA so for his sake I'm glad he did, mom and her mother were always SDA.

The Mason side of the family were once Catholic until my grandfathers child died and the priest said he would pray the child out of hell for thirty five dollars, that was during the depression. That ended their relationship with the Catholic church, actually ended their relationship with Christ in my opinion.

I can understand how that would make for some thorny discussions!

How did they happen to follow you here?

When I resigned from pastoring in the Adventist church I avoided discussing the issues with most of the members so that they were not discouraged from their own path. I was willing to talk to any who made contact wanting to know more. However, I didn't feel it was my role to push that conversation. We just said we were studying out some of the issues. We went up to visit with some of the seminary bretheren for a time to see if we could work through some of the concerns.

After that I continued to study things out for years in my spare time.
 
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tall73

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1. Hebrews 10:4-11 points out that all law founded in animal sacrifice and offerings end at the cross.

2. Only 3 of the Lev 23 annual Sabbaths were mandatory for all Jews even in the OT - so some were clearly optional back then.

In figuring out divisions of the law in the old covenant we are not primarily concerned with changes due to the new such as Hebrews. But since you raised the issue, Hebrews 10 indicates that the old covenant sacrifices could never take away sins and that they were shadows, of which Jesus is the reality. His one sacrifice for sins was sufficient, which we agree on.

However, the Jewish believers went on performing sacrifices and keeping the portions of the law that applied to them per Acts 21, viewing Jesus as the fulfillment, but still following the Torah.

The Acts council decision in Acts 15 was not to decide whether the Jewish believers would stop following all the law, but what to do with the gentiles. And no, I am not suggesting that the requirements at the council were the totality of gentile requirements, there are many imperatives in the NT.

But James and the rest were zealous for the whole law.

3. There was never an OT command for gentiles to observe the Lev 23 ceremonial laws in the OT - by contrast in Isaiah 56:6-8 gentiles are specifically singled out for weekly Sabbath keeping.

We agree that they were never commanded to keep the appointed times. Though there is a bit more to it. They were not allowed to keep the passover at all unless they were circumcised. But those who wanted to join themselves to the Lord would normally be circumcised and then keep the portions of the law that applied to them, entering the old covenant. So saying that they would not have to keep what they were not commanded is true, except that usually they would once they followed the Lord under the old law. Now of course, what is required under the new covenant is what we will be discussing, but for now we are looking at your divisions of the law in the old covenant.

As to the Sabbath, you don't have to go as far as Isaiah, the commandment itself speaks of the stranger in thy gates.

And regarding Isaiah, again, note the phrasing. It was for those who joined themselves to the covenant.

6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord
to minister to him,
to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servants,
all who keep the SabbathS)" without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant—


In the OT times you would join yourself to the old covenant, and to Israel.

Now the question is how that relates to the new covenant, and did anything change. But first we are looking at your division of moral law.

4. If we were all living before the time of the cross and a Jew asked me if it would be a sin for them to ignore the Passover I would say "yes".


Yes, that was what I was asking about. And it would also be for a stranger who joined himself to the Lord and His covenant, and was circumcised.

So how was it not "moral" if it was a sin to not do it?

Good that we have a baseline of what the better promises were, and that the torah on the heart is the better implementation.

Gal 1:6-9 only ONE gospel - whether NT or OT - there is only that one.
Gal 3:8 that one Gospel was "preached to Abraham"
John 8 "Abraham saw My day and was glad".

All are heirs of the promises of Abraham of the seed to come.

So the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers (exegesis again) is the context for the New Covenant Law written on the heart. And that most certainly includes the TEN - as you have already agreed -- but it is not limited to the TEN.

Correct. And it included everything for Jewish believers, which is the point Adventists often don't care for. But we see it in Acts 21. They were zealous for the entire law, with vows, sacrifices, etc.

The difficulty is what changed for gentiles. We seem to both agree circumcision was not required for gentiles, due to a number of clear texts including Acts 15, Galatians, Romans, etc.

They are heirs of the promises to Abraham, who is the father of both those who have faith and are circumcised, and those who do not have faith and are circumcised.

But that is a key distinction because that would normally be what would accompany their dedication to the whole law through joining the covenant. Hence at the council the point under discussion was that some wanted to require the gentiles to be circumcised, and to keep the law of Moses. Essentially they wanted them to do what gentiles would normally do when joining themselves to the Lord under the old covenant.

Acts 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”


They council of course ruled not to require them to be circumcised and keep the whole law. So now we are back to asking what was required of gentiles. The Jewish believers kept the entire law, but now instead of depending on their own promise to do all that the Lord commanded, they have the law written on their heart, and God is the one who puts it in their mind.

Here is the letter containing the decision:

Acts 15:24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

Now as I mentioned, the list is not exhaustive. We see a number of commands for gentiles in the NT. And in fact Paul states in I Timothy 1:

5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.


Now this points out that the role of the law was to increase transgression, and the law was to point out sin, as we see in Romans. Being written down it made it plain what was required. Yet in the new covenant the law is not the primary guide of righteousness, but Christ living in us by His Spirit which produces fruit. Against such there is no law, per Galatians.

But this does raise some issues. If the Gentiles were not required to be circumcised, and keep the whole law, what were they required to do?

And this is usually where we start to see divergence. Some Messianics propose that Acts 15 was saying that they did have to be circumcised and keep the whole law, but they were just given a few requirements as training wheels. Other denominations propose division of moral and ceremonial requirements, as you noted. Some propose only the ten. But I think we can rule out only the ten based on specific statements in the NT towards primarily gentile churches. And then some propose that they don't have to keep any of the law, but that they have died to the law and by the Spirit they live out the righteous requirements of the law. Under this notion the Acts 15 requirements are usually seen as a compromise for worship together, or Noahide requirements, and the imperatives in the NT practical applications of the Spirit.

To me the quotations of various points of the law indicate moral principles, so I tend to agree with you that the concept of the law written on the heart in Romans 3 suggests that the moral requirements are what are enjoined.

However, I wish it were more clearly stated as to the divisions of the law, because they all seemed required, morally binding, and some are stated to be an everlasting covenant.

To me this is partly resolved by noting that the Jewish believers continued to keep all of it, but seeing Christ as the fulfillment. And this actually made sense for outreach purposes as well. Jews would not have much interest in Torah-less faith. But they were interested in a faith that saw Jesus as the fulfillment of the law given to them. And they were interested in the new covenant that gave better promises, and wrote the Torah on their heart and placed it in their minds.

Gentiles were not as interested in circumcision and being joined to every requirement of the Jewish law, and they did not need to be. In this regard I see the Acts council as meeting both needs. The Jewish believers were zealous for the law (Acts 21), and the gentiles were not required to be circumcised and keep all of it, but were still bound by moral requirements.
 
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BobRyan

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In figuring out divisions of the law in the old covenant we are not primarily concerned with changes due to the new such as Hebrews.

Maybe not - but it shows parts of it cease and while other parts continue on - and explains why both the Baptist Confession of Faith sectn 19 and the Westminster Confession of Faith Sectn 19 -- notice that detail , which of course Adventists also note.

But since you raised the issue, Hebrews 10 indicates that the old covenant sacrifices could never take away sins

True - all animal sacrifices were mere shadows of the future sacrifice of Christ.
So Moses and Elijah standing in glory with Christ in Matt 17 fully forgiven - was only and always due to the blood of Christ alone.

and that they were shadows, of which Jesus is the reality. His one sacrifice for sins was sufficient, which we agree on.

Yes that is true.

However, the Jewish believers went on performing sacrifices and keeping the portions of the law that applied to them per Acts 21, viewing Jesus as the fulfillment, but still following the Torah.

Also true and as Acts 21 notes - they even have Paul "prove" to all observers that he is not telling Jews to abandon that.

The Acts council decision in Acts 15 was not to decide whether the Jewish believers would stop following all the law, but what to do with the gentiles.

Agreed. A Christian Jewish "tradition"/"teaching" arose which was not in the OT - namely that gentiles could not be saved unless they became Jews as in circumcised and keep all the festivals etc since as such they could have full participation in Passover etc.

And no, I am not suggesting that the requirements at the council were the totality of gentile requirements, there are many imperatives in the NT.

Agreed -- there were lots of things left out of Acts 15 - like "do not take God's name in vain"

We agree that they (gentiles) were never commanded to keep the appointed times. Though there is a bit more to it. They were not allowed to keep the passover at all unless they were circumcised.

agreed which may be why the Christian Jews were inventing that Acts 15:1 rule.

But those who wanted to join themselves to the Lord would normally be circumcised and then keep the portions of the law that applied to them, entering the old covenant.

I don't know that that is the case because

  1. in Acts 13, and 17 and 18 you see those gentiles in the synagogues "every Sabbath" - yet the Christian Jews reacted to the gentiles Paul was converting in the synagogues as if they were not circumcised.
  2. So also Cornelius in Acts 10 - yet Peter reacts to Cornelius as if he was not circumcised
  3. Timothy was clearly raised in the Jewish faith although a gentile 2 Tim 3:14-15 , 2 Tim 1:5 – and Acts 16:1-3 – and it is fact that he had not been circumcised
  4. Gal 2:12 – contrasting gentile Christians with Jewish Christians. Only the Jews were “the party of the circumcision”
  5. Acts 13:26 contrasts the “sons of Abraham’s family” vs “you who fear God” in the Synagogue.
    • A fully convert/proselyte in non-Christian Judaism - is identified in Jewish documents as "the son of Abraham" or "the daughter of Sarah."


“if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover” to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it. Gentiles are welcome at the Passover table – Ex 12:48-49

So I don't think it is at all certain that they were all being circumcised to become "God fearers". Rather the "God fearers" were gentiles that were not circumcised yet keeping the Sabbath and in the Synagogues.

(getting late will have to continue this later)
 
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tall73

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Just a note that I am working through these in order. I know you are already replying to my last reply, which I will try to address in order to avoid cross talk.

Rom 3:19-20 says it defines what sin is. So also does 1 John 3:4 and Paul makes the case in Eph 6:1-2 that the law we are talking about "includes" the one where in that unit "the first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment.

Yes, by the law comes knowledge of sin. And did you notice that similar to Paul's use of the muzzling an ox comment, he applies the commandment regarding honoring father and mother, but subtly re-casts the promise to apply to gentile believers in their context?


Exodus 20:12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.


Exo 20:12 τίμα τὸν πατέρα σου καὶ τὴν μητέρα, ἵνα εὖ σοι γένηται, καὶ ἵνα μακροχρόνιος γένῃ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς τῆς ἀγαθῆς, ἧς κύριος ὁ θεός σου δίδωσίν σοι.

Ephesians 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise: 3 “that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.”

The commandment focuses on their dwelling long in the land the Lord gave them, the promised land.

He applies it to gentiles living long on the earth in their respective situation.
 
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RBPerry

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I can understand how that would make for some thorny discussions!

How did they happen to follow you here?

It's an open forum, actually I learned of this forum from family members, enough said.
 
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tall73

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It's an open forum, actually I learned of this forum from family members, enough said.

Understood.

Just so you know, you can make your profile private to limit searching your posts. But it would still show new threads on the front page.

Since they are here now, if you wish you can end the thread. You would contact a moderator. As the initiator of a thread you may ask that it be closed. However, these conversations happen all day-every-day in the law and Sabbath section anyway, so I don't think in the grand scheme you are starting conversations that wouldn't happen naturally. You just are in this one.

Personally I hope you don't close it, as there are some strands of conversation I am finding helpful, but it is your call.
 
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tall73

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First: New Covenant vs Old Covenant

Gal 3 makes the case for the Old Covenant being defined as "Obey and Live" - it is the Gen 2 and 3 condition for Adam and Eve and they ultimately chose to fail at it after having lived by it for a short while.

Gal 3 says this -

11 Now, that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “the righteous one will live by faith.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “The person who performs them will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”—

So both Adam and Eve and Christ were under the "obey and live" condition - but Adam and Eve though sinless chose sin and failed. Christ did not.

Each lost member of mankind "all the world" -- "every mouth" is condemned to hell - condemned to the lake of fire second-death Rev 20 under that old covenant to this very day, according to Rom 3.

I think we agree to this point. There are numerous texts that indicate that death came to all because all sinned, and that God sent His Son not to condemn (those who don't believe are already due to the fall), but to save.

Romans 1:18-3:20 go through a series of arguments that show that all are guilty before God, both Jew and Gentile, then culminating with the presentation of the gospel start in in verse 21.

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.

That law defines what sin is - and condemns every single human "ALL have sinned" Rom 3:23.

That IS the Old Covenant in its purest - spiritual form.

I would say it is the state of fallen man. The old covenant was part of it in that it added the written law, which was one component of the above arguments.

So those who sinned (violated the law written on the heart, ignored God's attributes displayed in creation, ignoring the conscience, as per Romans 1-2) before the law did not transgress an explicit command as did Adam (the tree).

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.


The commandment pointed out sin even more clearly, and sin abounded:

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The old covenant with the Israelites which Paul noted involved obey and live, was summarized in Exodus 19:


3 And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: 4 ‘You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself. 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.” 7 So Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before them all these words which the Lord commanded him. 8 Then all the people answered together and said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do.”


Therefore, they had more plainly the word of the Lord in written form. However, we agree that both gentiles who had the law on the heart, and the conscience, and natural revelation were still required to keep the law, and were condemned.

All the lost are lost still to this very day under that same legal "agreement" legal set of terms. Obey and live. So then all "need the Gospel".

Agreed.

There are outward symbols of it - such as Sinai and the giving of the Law - but that does not mean that Moses was not under the New Covenant.

In Matt 17 we see Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in GLORY - before the cross even happens. That is only possible via the "one Gospel" Gal 1:6-9 - that is the only one we have ever had. The one preached to Abraham Gal 3:8. Moses was a New Covenant Christian.

The law which was given to Moses later did not set aside the promise to Abraham, as Galatians note. So I think we agree on that.

The Moral Law of God - (that which defines sin ) is the same under both covenants.

So it is a sin to take God's name in vain under the Old Covenant
And it is a sin to take God's name in vain under the New Covenant.

Here we do not agree completely. But I think I addressed it in the earlier post so I won't belabor it here. To violate any of God's stated requirements was sin. That included the ceremonial law given to the Israelites since they were under the covenant to do all that Lord required.

See the other post for the Acts council, etc.
 
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tall73

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In the broader issue of "orthodoxy" we have to first define the term.

Orthodoxy with respect to the doctrine and teaching of the "church fathers" that were writing the NT in the first century - means conforming to the doctrine of those Apostles - those Church Fathers. And when you bring Ellen White into it - then the first question is - what did THOSE Church Fathers say about the gifts of the Spirit and specifically the gift of prophecy - how are Christians to relate to it - to a prophet , and how to test them.

But the "other" notion for Orthodoxy is to ignore the first century Christian church and just talk about creeds and church councils and the demand to conform doctrine to post NT - post-Apostolic popular thinking. I start on page one pointing out that we are using the "sola scriptura test" and not the non-Apostolic age ever changing set of ideas -- "test".

I get that for the whole thread. My concern is related, in how you view Scripture. But I am less concerned with some of the definitions of orthodoxy per se. So there is overlap to what others raised.
 
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tall73

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It is true that we have to do that internally within the group of Adventists because we have a common understanding of what scriptures teach and so a basis on which to discuss how we test what Ellen White said against scripture.

But as my prior post stated - that agreement does not exist across denominations so there is absolutely no claim by Adventists that a non-SDA should accept Ellen White as a prophet.

I don't see any way to start at that end and work backwards. The only way is to start at the doctrine end and work forwards. The same way the evangelist program bible studies do. IT is the only way to logically work through the details.

I am more interested in seeing whether your view of Scripture, as an Adventist, matches with Ellen White, or whether you change your view to match hers once you learn what hers entails, or whether you try to explain away her view to match what you stated your view of Scripture was to begin with.

Or more broadly, I am interested in how you resolve what I could not as an Adventist. If Ellen White is inspired, how are her inspired writings not on par with other inspired writings by Paul, or Peter, etc.? Isn't it God who inspires? Yet she and the church says they are not on par.

If Ellen White is inspired, how can you avoid taking her inspired interpretation of a bible text as the correct one?

Now of course that presumes that in general you have found her to met the tests of a prophet. But once that has happened, it is hard to say that you view her as not equal to Scripture. On a practical level few Adventists will disagree with a point Ellen White has made about a Bible text.

I get that the usual explanation for that is she is inspired, and so will be correct, and will agree with Scripture. But then she indicates not to use her writings in that way.

And if she indicates that her writings are to point people to the Scriptures--why bother with her writings at all? Why not have the church thank her for her historical influence, but drop the writings? If it is all based on Scripture, then mission accomplished, she pointed to it.

I have read many of her writings. But on a practical level, how many Adventists can read all of her counsel? And wouldn't they be better off with the Bible? Wouldn't the church be better off defending only their view of the Bible?

But while she has many statements saying that we should lay sister White aside, and go by the Bible, the reality is (as is true on a number of topics) she has other statements that certainly do not say that, and that indicate that doubt in the testimonies and her writings will lead to doubts about other things. And she indicates that while the word of God is to be respected, you should not entertain someone who brings many scriptures to contradict one of the pillars which was established by--the past experience of the pioneers.

You can't square that circle.

In my case I found too many things that I could not reconcile with what she wrote, so I no longer had to.

But that was not my first choice, and I tried for years to figure it out. And I have watched for years more as Adventists I am discussing particular texts with will

a. change their view to match EGW once they learn her view
b. Try to explain away what she said to match what they are convinced the Bible says.

For me, I couldn't do it.
 
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Your link from Andrews includes this statement

I think I missed this earlier.

As much as I agree with QoD the underlying issue is the question of how 2 people can answer questions in detail as if they were the entire GC Session voting on each point and then holding the entire denomination accountable for each answer. I don't think that expectation is reasonable no matter that QoD is a great example of answers to the questions that they got from Martin.

I think that is fair enough. But by taking on the challenge they put themselves in that position. Perhaps they could have adapted more language from existing resources (Bible Readings, etc.) that had already seen historical agreement.

The problem came from what the link calls "dissident groups" trying to parse QoD and bend it to meet their "agenda" as if they would have license to do that since each statement was voted on by the SDA denomination (which of course it was not that sort of document). The fact that they would take advantage of the text that way - does not argue against QoD in my view. Neither do I take it's authors as being infallible - so no matter if one could have found "an even better way to make the statement" or even if they made a minor misstatement here or there - it is still a good answer.

I would say I generally agree with their answers as well. However, I was framing the discussion for those investigating from the outside regarding Martin's findings. It is important to note that while Martin found them not to be a cult, there was backlash from some in the church in that they accused the church leadership of giving a watered-down view to better reach that conclusion, while softening some historical aspects.

Now I think the Christianity Today article actually got it right in one respect. There was already a large variety of very strongly held views in the church on issues of the nature of Christ, understanding of the gospel, etc. This pointed out the tensions already there, and gave the parties an opportunity to voice their concerns.

And while I think Andreasen did get pretty aggressive, I don't think many would call him prone to factions prior to that. He was defending what he thought was the historic doctrine.
 
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1. I have not seen that case made yet.
2. I don't see the value in "what did she say that differs with the bible" until we get to "what does the Bible say"

But the case makes itself!

"The field," Christ said, "is the world." But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world.

She quotes Christ saying the field is the world. She then says it means something else.

As to what the Bible says, you stated that before we looked at her description.

But really, is it unclear to you what Jesus said?

The field is the world. That is what the Bible indicated Jesus said.

Now that we have that figured out, what did she say?

But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world.


Do those differ? Yes, very much so.


The idea that we can ignore Bible doctrine and just test a prophet by the Bible no matter that we don't agree on bible doctrine has an extremely limited usefulness in my POV. I prefer to get the bible right first.

Bob, are you really unsure what Jesus meant when He said the field is the world?

Do you think Ellen White's statement that

But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world.

means the same thing?


If it did, why would she even say it? Jesus was explaining the parable to His disciples who didn't understand. He made it very plain so they could understand.

So which is it? Did the field represent the world? Or did the field represent the church of Christ in the world?

 
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1. I have not seen that case made yet.
2. I don't see the value in "what did she say that differs with the bible" until we get to "what does the Bible say"

But the case makes itself!

"The field," Christ said, "is the world." But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world.

She quotes Christ saying the field is the world. She then says it means something else.

As to what the Bible says, is it unclear to you what Jesus said? The field is the world. That is what the Bible indicated Jesus said.

Now that we have that figured out, what did she say?

But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world.


Do those differ? Yes, very much so.

The idea that we can ignore Bible doctrine and just test a prophet by the Bible no matter that we don't agree on bible doctrine has an extremely limited usefulness in my POV. I prefer to get the bible right first.

Bob, are you really unsure what Jesus meant when He said the field is the world? Do you think Ellen White's statement that

But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world.

means the same thing?


If it did, why would she even say it? Jesus was explaining the parable to His disciples who didn't understand. He made it very plain so they could understand. So why would she need to re-explain the explanation of Christ and say we must take it to mean something else?

So which is it? Did the field represent the world? Or did the field represent the church of Christ in the world?
 
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You are correct, I misspoke. I've amended my post.

Old: This isn't about the world, it's about Jesus sowing seeds to His flock, of heaven, not the world.
New: Ellen's adaptation isn't about the world, it's about the church; Jesus sowing seeds to His flock.

My intention was apparent in my first iteration, as I wrote this: "I believe this is why Ellen put emphasis on it being about the church. I don't think it takes away from the world aspect, I think she was applying it to the church to wake people up to the fact that the church has tares in it as well."

Let's look at the complete quote from Ellen:

"The field," Christ said, "is the world." But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world. The parable is a description of that which pertains to the kingdom of God, His work of salvation of men; and this work is accomplished through the church. True, the Holy Spirit has gone out into all the world; everywhere it is moving upon the hearts of men; but it is in the church that we are to grow and ripen for the garner of God.

She's not talking to the world, she's talking to the church, applying scripture as an object lesson. Her book is titled, "Christ's Object Lessons". The whole book is about object lessons for the church.

I don't think you can come away from this paragraph, nor the subject matter of the book, and say that Ellen is intentionally misleading her church, nor does it make her a "false prophet".

We will look at Jesus' quote. And we will look at her quote.

38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.

Jesus is very plain. He is trying to be. He is explaining to His disciples who didn't understand the parable. He says the field is the world. That is the meaning of the field in the parable--the world.

Now Ellen White says:


"The field," Christ said, "is the world." But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world.

Now you stated that you don't think her statement "takes away from the world aspect."

But of course it does. If Jesus says the field is the world. And Ellen White says that we must understand Jesus' statement (that the field is the world) as signifying the church of Christ in the world (rather than the world as a whole), that definitely takes away. She does not say "now Jesus' parable is about the whole world, but we will focus on just how it applies to the church for the moment." Instead, she changes the meaning of Jesus' own explanation. She tries to explain what Jesus actually meant, as though He didn't say what He meant in an explanation designed to do just that.

World
Church in the world

Those are not the same thing.


And the rest of the quote which you mention actually underscores that point.

She stated that we cannot take Jesus' statement about the field being the world to actually mean the field means the world. We must understand it to mean the church in the world. And what reason does she give for that?

The parable is a description of that which pertains to the kingdom of God, His work of salvation of men; and this work is accomplished through the church.

His work of salvation.....


Is every person that is saved in the church? No. Some never step foot in the church.

Is every person that is saved receiving the ministry of the church? Not necessarily either, in that God can work through visions, can reveal through nature, the conscience, etc. per Romans 1 and 2.

Is every wicked person that is lost in the church? No.

Jesus says it is about the world. And that makes sense with the parable. Hence you note that there is an aspect that deals with the world. But you say that Ellen White's statement doesn't take away from that. Well it does. It changes it to the church.

In the parable the man sowed good seed in the field.:

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.

Plug in the definitions from the explanation:

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

And we get:

the kingdom of heaven is like the Son of Man who sowed the sons of the kingdom in the world. The devil sowed the sons of the wicked one.

That certainly makes sense. God create the world, and all that He made is good. Satan on the other hand incited Adam to sin. He is the father of the wicked ones.

God waits for all to show their fruit. Then at the end the angels remove everything from His kingdom that offends, and all the wicked, the sons of the devil. They are destroyed. The sons of the kingdom shine forth as the son in the kingdom of their father.

It is all about the world, and God's plan to restore what was fallen through sin, and destroy sin and sinners forever, while preserving the sons of the kingdom.

It is not limited to those in the church. It involves every person in the world.

Now the next statement of Ellen White's quote shows that she realizes she is trying to make a hard sale. She anticipates the reader might have trouble with saying Jesus said the world, but it must be understood as the church in the world. So she says:

True, the Holy Spirit has gone out into all the world; everywhere it is moving upon the hearts of men;

Jesus said the world. She said the church. Then she said we know it is the church, not the world, because the kingdom deals with salvation. And that happens through the church.

Except now she admits what the reader is thinking--salvation is not limited to the church, or to the ministry of the church. The Spirit has gone into the world --yeah that is a problem for her view. Of course the real problem was trying to change the meaning of what Jesus said in the first place.

but it is in the church that we are to grow and ripen for the garner of God.

Supposed to? Do all ripen in the church? No.
Are all the wicked in the church pretending to be saved? No.

Then she goes on to apply each aspect to the church, rather than the world, which was what Jesus said the field represented.

So yes, I do think it takes away from the world aspect. Because it changes it to the church, rather than the world.

38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
 
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