• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
9,065
4,768
✟360,169.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
But not because of what I think about Polycarp - so not sure why you are off on that tangent.

I claim we are Christians for the same reason that CF does - because of doctrine when it comes to the Trinity, The Gospel and saved-by-grace-through-faith and acceptance of the Bible as the Word of God .



rejected the reformers I listed when you asked for someone who is a Christian between 1000 AD and 1800 AD.

That alone was already sufficient to refute the complaint you are trying to establish.



True - and I chose Polycarp in addition to the others mentioned. I could choose more but you did say that you just needed one.




Question for you - how many fraudulent letters ascribed to Ignatius were at first accepted as legit - ??

Well we are able to distinguish between the authentic letters to Ignatius and the interpolated ones as I believe there are few manuscript traditions. The interpolated ones clearly bear the marks of theology not proper to the early centuries of the Church but later centuries, at least from what I recall, though if you want to dismiss the entire Ignatian corpus I suppose I can't convince you otherwise.

But you do see my broad point right? I'm not trying to argue the superiority of my doctrine over yours. That's a debate worthy in itself but not my goal, rather what I am concerned about is who we should broadly consider as part of the Church or more broadly Christendom. I see a reluctance on your part to place yourself within the historic Church, quite possibly because that historic Church believed and practiced things contrary to SDA teaching. This is understandable. I could understand why you wouldn't accept Augustine, or Athanasius, or Jerome or Gregory Nazianzus, but this means we don't seem to be part of the same Christendom.

You belong to a strain of the reformation in the radical camp, rather than the magisterial reformers like Calvin or Luther. Until you can firmly attach yourself or claim to attach yourself to the historic Church, I cannot personally consider you part of a general Christian orthodoxy. This means embracing the Nicene creed, embracing the history of the Church for all it's existence. Not just the parts you like.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,414
11,950
Georgia
✟1,103,374.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Well we are able to distinguish between the authentic letters to Ignatius and the interpolated ones as I believe there are few manuscript traditions. The interpolated ones clearly bear the marks of theology not proper to the early centuries of the Church but later centuries, .

1. All of the supposed "Ignatius" letters were promoted as legit at one time.
2. Calvin never accepted any of them as far as I know.
3. How many fraudulent letters do you know of for Polycarp?

Does that help you with your question as to why I picked the easy example in the case of Polycarp?

The Ignatian Forgeries: They claim to be written by Ignatius in 110 AD, but were forged by another in about 250 AD that deceptively claimed to be Ignatius.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,414
11,950
Georgia
✟1,103,374.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
But you do see my broad point right? I'm not trying to argue the superiority of my doctrine over yours. That's a debate worthy in itself but not my goal, rather what I am concerned about is who we should broadly consider as part of the Church or more broadly Christendom. .

And I keep arguing that SDAs accept all Christian denominations as Christian.

that might be where we differ.

which is fine - you have free will and can differ if you like.

I cannot personally consider you part of a general Christian orthodoxy. .

then have a blessed day. I am not trying to force anyone's free will.
 
Upvote 0

Freth

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 11, 2020
1,722
2,071
Midwest, USA
✟593,946.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Talking about Sabbath, I do personally enjoy having a spiritual practice of keeping the spirit of the Sabbath, which I follow the historical Jewish Sabbath of Saturday.

One thing about SDA theology that gets me though is that their eschatology is that at some point in the future the apostate church will come into political power and enforce Sunday worship. Anyone who does not worship on Sunday will be jailed and/or killed.

The last 4 years have shown me that many things I thought were impossible and wouldn't ever happen, happened. However with this eschatology I just don't see it...

We're seeing the precursors now.
There are so many more. It's been going on for years.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
9,065
4,768
✟360,169.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
1. All of the supposed "Ignatius" letters were promoted as legit at one time.
2. Calvin never accepted any of them as far as I know.
3. How many fraudulent letters do you know of for Polycarp?

Does that help you with your question as to why I picked the easy example in the case of Polycarp?

The Ignatian Forgeries: They claim to be written by Ignatius in 110 AD, but were forged by another in about 250 AD that deceptively claimed to be Ignatius.

I can only go by what I've read in actual books on the subject. I recommend the introduction to the Ignatian corpus in the Popular patristics series. It contains the two major variants the legitimate and the interpolated texts. I believe if I recall, they were the middle and later recension. The Middle recension is more or less viewed as authentic though that's not to suggest there aren't textual problems, as with any ancient text.

I'm not of the mind to dismiss the entire corpus mind you.

Do you view any of the Ante-Nicene writings that we have as being authentic? Do you think Polycarp's letter is false?
 
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,215
2,558
59
Home
Visit site
✟252,479.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
falsely accusing others is not a form of "proof" that one's position is correct. It gets down to the Acts 17:11 test of scripture which was applied "across denominations" in that case - in fact "across religions" in a sense.
Who says the accusation is false? God? God the Holy Spirit revealed to me otherwise.
 
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,215
2,558
59
Home
Visit site
✟252,479.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
so say we all
So say you all, but a few achieve illumination, and not only their words are more authoritative than those who merely say, but the Holy Spirit of God also attests to their authority, as He did with Paul, by powerful and wondrous works. I know of no such wonders coming out of your denominations, though there may at times be some who do good works. We have many saints, and many of them had supernatural abilities by the grace of the Holy Spirit within them. The Holy Spirit does not stay in Lawbreakers. Yet, your denomination accuses all of our saints of breaking God's Law by not honoring the Sabbath. Your religion is wrong in this regard and are committed to a grave error.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,414
11,950
Georgia
✟1,103,374.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
We study the Word of God always. So how do you dare to presume to know it better than us? You don't, because you don't know Him or see Him as we all should.

falsely accusing others is not a form of "proof" that one's position is correct.

It gets down to the Acts 17:11 test of scripture which was applied "across denominations" in that case - in fact "across religions" in a sense.

Who says the accusation is false? God?....

I think that post sequence speaks for itself.

We can all see.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,414
11,950
Georgia
✟1,103,374.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Do you view any of the Ante-Nicene writings that we have as being authentic? Do you think Polycarp's letter is false?

I think Polycarp's letter is legit - but I could be proven wrong on that.
 
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,215
2,558
59
Home
Visit site
✟252,479.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I look forward to your reading and finding more information
Reading? I've read some to be sure, but I've experienced it enough personally to know what I know as well. Reading alone proves nothing. You have to live it. That's how you prove it.
 
Upvote 0

RBPerry

Christian Baby Boomer
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2013
808
302
77
Northern California
✟134,232.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
@BobRyan @Albion @Ignatius the Kiwi @imge @Danthemailman @Freth

I was a member of the Seventh-day Adventist church most of my life, and a pastor in the Adventist church for ten years. I left due to an inability to reconcile some of the doctrine (the investigative judgment teaching initially).

There is a lot I love about the Adventist church. The average member tends to be quite dedicated. And I think many are walking in Christ. They do have a number of teachings considered heterodox, as has been already discussed.

The majority of members do hold to a view that is mostly in line with Trinitarian thought. Though there are still a minority who are non-Trinitarian, and as Bob mentioned they are non-creedal. His statement that if a creed happens to agree that is fine, but they don't go by it is quite accurate as describing most in the church.

Most Adventists do see a falling away from true doctrine on a number of points rather early on. So even the fathers of the early centuries following Christ they would usually see as wrong on hell, death, etc. In theological training we did read writings of the church fathers. However, there was considerable emphasis on the differences. Many Adventists do no reading regarding the early church.

Bob was correct that they did not draw doctrines from Ellen White's writings, with the possible exception of some of the health message initially being pointed out in vision.

However, Ellen White's visions were used to confirm understandings of Scripture that some had already come to. They do not consider Ellen White part of the Scriptures. However, in practice, if Ellen White comments on a particular Bible text few Adventists will argue against the interpretation given, because they consider her inspired. And she commented on a great many Scriptures.

Regarding ecumenical endeavors, a lot of Adventists engage in ministerial alliances, joint relief efforts, religious liberty endeavors (which they are quite strong on given their experiences in Sabbath workplace discrimination), etc.

And they generally consider that Christians following God to the best of their understanding are still saved. That includes historical figures, reformers, etc. However, that does not mean they have a particularly positive view of other churches.

Most Adventists and Adventist apologists indicate that they see themselves as an extension of the Protestant reformation, and that they feel the Seventh-day Adventist distinctive doctrines are a further calling out of error from what was brought about by Luther, etc. However, by most outside viewers they would be considered restorationist.

As to how they treat those who depart from Adventist understanding, I think Bob knows a bit more than he is letting on. Yes, it varies. However, I have known a lot of former Adventists, and many have had family and friends consider them a heretic and lost.

On the other hand, I was treated quite fairly by the leadership when I departed. And I think they have developed better habits on this over time, as a number of clergy have departed over theological teachings. This is especially true following Desmond Ford raising issues on the Adventist investigative judgment and sanctuary teaching. In Australia and New Zealand this was more pronounced than in the USA.

Overall, I still love a lot about the Adventist church, and didn't want to leave. However, I felt convicted that it would not be right to stay and minister there if I did not agree with their fundamental doctrines. Their doctrinal statement is quite thorough, expounding on a number of points.

The teaching that most relates to this is the view that they consider the movement to be the remnant church of God, and that God calls others to join that movement. So while they may see others as sincere Christians, they see other denominations as essentially babylon, and believers to be called out of them.

Interesting you mentioned investigative judgement, that was another issue I was going to bring up, however I have received so much flack from family and others about my challenges I've decided let it go to some degree.

I can not speak for todays Adventist teachings or current schools. It seems to me that many Adventist are almost disassociating themselves with Mrs. White. I think she was a righteous woman that confused many of her dreams as prophesies, however that is just my opinion. I have read almost all her books but it has been many years.

I appreciate that fact the many SDA consider those who leave and challenge there theology at any level as heretics and lost, believe me I've heard it over and over. Mrs. White had some good points regarding dietary issues, but they fell very short, but that's for another topic, and one I'm well versed on.

The issue I have is the attitude that issues like Saturday sabbath, dietary issues, and other social taboos that aren't supported by scripture are considered sin.

Bottom line, God didn't wait 1500 years to deal with the Saturday issue, nor to decide we shouldn't eat meat, and especially pork products.

I do appreciate your response although I don't totally agree, but you get a enough Christian together and they will find something to argue about.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: truefiction1
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,414
11,950
Georgia
✟1,103,374.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Interesting you mentioned investigative judgement, that was another issue I was going to bring up,

Its in Daniel 7 and Romans 2 -- for those who are interested in those bible chapters.

The issue I have is the attitude that issues like Saturday sabbath, dietary issues, and other social taboos that aren't supported by scripture are considered sin.

Bottom line, God didn't wait 1500 years to deal with the Saturday issue, nor to decide we shouldn't eat meat, and especially pork products.

1. Ex 20:8-11 and James 2 were written way more than 1500 years ago.
2. They are also in scripture.

These are Bible details that I am sure you will agree that a lot of Adventists are not inclined to ignore.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,776
6,156
Visit site
✟1,089,161.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Just to clarify - the SDA denomination has its statement of beliefs that affirms the Trinity and those who agree to be baptized and join the church must agree to that belief to be voted into membership. I happen to belong to a local congregation that has a history of a small sub-group suddenly deciding to reject the Trinity doctrine and over the course of time they were disfellowshiped after many tries at getting them to reconsider and accept the Bible texts on this Bible teaching.

Yes, the fundamentals are more in line with Trinitarian thought, though phrased to avoid some sticking points with traditional language. And for that matter, Ellen White's writings are a big reason why the church shifted to a more Trinitarian view due to her "trio" statement. A fair number of the pioneers of the church had issues with the theology of the Trinity, or the term itself. But the current church is far more in line with that.

On the other hand churches vary widely as to their practice of baptising with adherence to the 28 fundamentals, or the traditional Baptism vows (which spell a few things out more clearly). Some churches would disfellowship such groups, and others would not.

We can agree that the fundamentsl are in line with Trinitarian views, and in this case that is due to Ellen White's influence.

However - as you noted the denomination itself is non-creedal in that our basis for accepting or rejecting doctrine is not in measuring a teaching against a creed - but measuring against the bible "sola scriptura".

Agreed.,


I have family members that are former SDA and I know several members in church that have a similar situation with some family member - but terms like "heretic" are not used by anyone I know as SDA unless it is on a place like CF where that term gets tossed around.

Terms vary, but the sentiment is the issue.

Which I also agree with - that is the right thing to do for those that find themselves in that situation. It is always best to be in whatever group where you find full agreement

Yes, there are a fair number of pastors who I have encountered who no longer hold to all of the 28 fundamental beliefs, but want to stay on. This can be for selfish reasons that they would have to start over, or notions that they want to reform the church from the inside. However, I do not think that is an honest approach. There was even a hinted at offer from the leadership to ship me off to a conference that embraces that more readily (think West Coast). I refused that, and urged those that I knew who could not agree to either reconcile their views or act on their convictions.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,776
6,156
Visit site
✟1,089,161.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Scripture makes it clear that the remnant 1) keep the commandments of God and 2) have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12). This can be any denomination, any people, not just SDA. In my experience in the church, I haven't seen or heard of any official statement that SDA claim to be the only people who make up the remnant. Your experience may differ, of course. I think you can find this in any denomination; a church that thinks they're the one true church denomination. There is the one truth, not the one true church denomination. There is, however, one true church that is not a denomination; the remnant.

SDA have taken it upon themselves to bring forth the gospel as per the Three Angels' Messages (Revelation 14:6-12), because of the significance of the Seal of God being tied to the Sabbath. Commandment keeping is important, as per the definition of the remnant (above), so naturally, we try to get this message to as many people as possible. The fact that many, if not most, denominations seem to be unaware of these simple truths is staggering.

It's not for us to decide who exactly the remnant is. Scripture gives us easy to understand language, so that we can know where we need to be as God's people.

All Christians are called to spread the gospel.

I mentioned the word movement in my post for that reason, as the remnant is seen as in accord with the 3 angels messages, but not strictly limited to the Adventist Church.

So in the fundamental they draw a line between the universal church, and the remnant called in the last days.

The Remnant and its Mission | Adventist.org

The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This remnant announces the arrival of the judgment hour, proclaims salvation through Christ, and heralds the approach of His second advent. This proclamation is symbolized by the three angels of Revelation 14; it coincides with the work of judgment in heaven and results in a work of repentance and reform on earth. Every believer is called to have a personal part in this worldwide witness. (Dan. 7:9-14; Isa. 1:9; 11:11; Jer. 23:3; Mic. 2:12; 2 Cor. 5:10; 1 Peter 1:16-19; 4:17; 2 Peter 3:10-14; Jude 3, 14; Rev. 12:17; 14:6-12; 18:1-4.)



However, vow 13 of the traditional Baptismal vows in the Church Manual read:

https://www.adventist.org/wp-conten...-day-adventist-church-manual_2015_updated.pdf

13. Do you accept and believe that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy and that people of every nation, race, and language are invited and accepted into its fellowship? Do you desire to be a member of this local congregation of the world Church?

There is an alternate version in the manual, and my understanding is that delegates discussed brief ones that point back to the 28 at some point since I left. However, it is not an unusual thought that the Adventist movement is the remnant church, though likely in the end going beyond the structure of the denomination as a work of God.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,776
6,156
Visit site
✟1,089,161.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
1. All of the supposed "Ignatius" letters were promoted as legit at one time.
2. Calvin never accepted any of them as far as I know.
3. How many fraudulent letters do you know of for Polycarp?

Does that help you with your question as to why I picked the easy example in the case of Polycarp?

The Ignatian Forgeries: They claim to be written by Ignatius in 110 AD, but were forged by another in about 250 AD that deceptively claimed to be Ignatius.

You sure you didn't mention him because of his reference to the Sabbath in the martyrdom account (though debated as to the nature of the Sabbath).
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,776
6,156
Visit site
✟1,089,161.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Interesting you mentioned investigative judgement, that was another issue I was going to bring up, however I have received so much flack from family and others about my challenges I've decided let it go to some degree.

I understand. It was difficult in that the Adventist church was the only church my kids had known, and we knew many people having pastored in multiple churches, and attended additional ones. Having people view you in a changed manner because of changed convictions is difficult, especially with family.

As to the IJ, just so you don't have to take the heat, I will post this for folks to read over the IJ issues.

Home

I can not speak for todays Adventist teachings or current schools. It seems to me that many Adventist are almost disassociating themselves with Mrs. White.

There are certainly some churches who do, usually in larger cities, and more progressive congregations.

But then there are a lot of traditional Adventist churches where they are certainly not abandoning sister White's writings. And the current GC president is rather traditional.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: RBPerry
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,776
6,156
Visit site
✟1,089,161.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
dietary issues, and other social taboos that aren't supported by scripture are considered sin.

As an example of what you are speaking about so folks don't think you are remembering incorrectly from your earlier years:

Ellen White:

Would the lightning and thunder of Sinai arouse this church? Would they arouse you, fathers and mothers, to commence the work of reformation in your own houses? You should be teaching your children. You should be instructing them how to shun the vices and corruptions of this age. Instead of this, many are studying how to get something good to eat. You place upon your tables butter, eggs, and meat, and your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go? You have a work to do first. When you have done all for your children which God has left for you to do then you can with confidence claim the special help that God has promised to give you. {2T 361.2}

Jesus:

Luke 11: 1 If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”


Jesus shows how even earthly fathers, sinful though they be, want to give good gifts to their children. How much more does our Heavenly father want to bestow the gift of the Spirit?

He has no qualms mentioning an egg as an example of a good gift given by earthly fathers to their children. Yet Ellen White says giving eggs to your children is a problem.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RBPerry
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,776
6,156
Visit site
✟1,089,161.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
People have to wear specific clothes on specific days, the worship program follows the exact same formula and structure literally down to which foot people use to climb the steps up to the alter.

I have never seen any of that in an Adventist church.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,776
6,156
Visit site
✟1,089,161.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Have you read her books, you must have gone to a different Adventist school than I did. To put it simply we were taught that the SDA church came into existence based on her visions (dreams). She was very much responsible for the Saturday issue


Bob is correct in that Ellen and James White initially heard of the Sabbath message through Joseph Bates, a fellow Millerite. They did not accept it at first, as Bob said.

Bob was also correct when he said that initially some of the adherents received Sabbath teaching from Seventh-day Baptists. In particular, Rachel Oaks brought such teaching to some.

Ellen White was quite influential, and her visions were seen to confirm their doctrinal positions. But the doctrinal positions were generally formed by others.

Another example is the explanation for the disappointment. Hiram Edson was the first to come up with the notion that Jesus in 1844 went from the holy to the Most Holy Place. Crosier, etc.wrote up the view in the Day Dawn paper which then swayed others.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: BobRyan
Upvote 0