Paul did not teach Perpetual Belief Alone-ism for salvation.

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Lets change the sin. What if this Christian murdered a poor old lady, and then he got hit by a bus, and died. Is he still saved?

The answer then may change for some of you, right? But both looking upon a woman in lust is condemned by Jesus with warnings of hellfire (Matthew 5:28-30), just as murder is condemned by the apostle John (1 John 3:15).

 

[Ceallaigh]

But you didn't answer the question. Is he saved? Yes, or no? By your question you imply that he is saved, but that is not a straight “yes,” or “no” answer.

"What I say does not matter". Does the Bible say we are Born Again numerous times? Perhaps even daily? Yes or no?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"What I say does not matter". Does the Bible say we are Born Again numerous times? Perhaps even daily? Yes or no?

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son: We learn that the prodigal son was said to be “dead” and “alive AGAIN” by his father when he came back home (and sought forgiveness with his father) from living it up with prostitutes. The parable is speaking in spiritual terms. The prodigal son was dead spiritually when he was living it up with prostitutes in his prodigal life, and he became alive again spiritually when he came back home and sought forgiveness with his everlasting father (i.e. a spiritual type of Jesus).

James 5:19-20 teaches the same thing. It says if any brother errs from the truth, and another brother converts him back from the sinful errors of his ways (no doubt by getting him to confess of his sins to Jesus), they should know that they have helped to save a soul from death and to cover a multitude of their sins. Meaning, they helped to save this fellow brother who went prodigal by leading them back to Jesus. So a believer can die spiritually via by sin, and then be forgiven again and experience spiritual life again.

As for being born again: This is a change of a person's heart and mind by the Holy Spirit when a person accepts Jesus as their Savior. But their free will is not eliminated. Whether God regenerates a believer's heart a second time is up to God. But the point is that the Bible does teach that a believer can die spiritually and then come back to spiritual life again.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Belief Alone-ism is the issue. Sola Fide. This is saying that all one has to do is believe and they are saved. I know. Calvinism believes a little differently. They believe God saves (regenerates) the believer, and belief (faith) is not something that the believer has the capacity to act upon on their own power.

Calvinism teaches that the lost have no capacity to produce valid faith of their own ability. Thus, (and Scripture teaches this), the Spirit of God is given, taking up residence, giving new birth to those to whom God has chosen to show mercy; the Spirit of God is what generates the faith --the recipient of salvific faith does not generate it.

It is my addition, though Calvinism doesn't deny it, and the tenets of Calvinism support it, that the regenerated believer's faith, that is, the faith subsequent to that regeneration and salvation, is the same faith as salvific faith --still generated by God; though we do work at it and affect it, the huge faith is no more valid than the small faith --it is God's work. Our work is not without results. But it is all the work of God, not ours apart from God. I have no ability, in and of myself, to do anything worthy. "Apart from me, you can do nothing" is not hyperbole.

So, I believe, monergism rules throughout. But if we do not work, our faith is dead; dead faith is not the living power of God in us.

 

[Mark Quayle]

To all:

Lets change the sin. What if this Christian murdered a poor old lady, and then he got hit by a bus, and died. Is he still saved?

The answer then may change for some of you, right? But both looking upon a woman in lust is condemned by Jesus with warnings of hellfire (Matthew 5:28-30), just as murder is condemned by the apostle John (1 John 3:15).

What is the difference? If the person is chosen by God to be shown the mercy of regeneration, he will indeed be in Heaven. If not, he won't. The works, the obedience, the walk, the repentance, the fruit, are identifiers, not causes, of his salvation.

We all have sin, I don't doubt in the least, that for whatever reasons God has not yet chosen to show us, and for which we do not feel the guilt, that God could hold against us as unforgiven, if your scenario is relevant, but for the Elect, God has already forgiven them, and they are repentant of heart.

If the murderer is hit by a bus before he has repented of that one sin, he has already been forgiven by God, if indeed he belongs to Christ. It is not ours to judge.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Calvinism teaches that the lost have no capacity to produce valid faith of their own ability. Thus, (and Scripture teaches this), the Spirit of God is given, taking up residence, giving new birth to those to whom God has chosen to show mercy; the Spirit of God is what generates the faith --the recipient of salvific faith does not generate it.

Yes, that's basically what I was trying to say (and I strongly disagree with that belief).

It is my addition, though Calvinism doesn't deny it, and the tenets of Calvinism support it, that the regenerated believer's faith, that is, the faith subsequent to that regeneration and salvation, is the same faith as salvific faith --still generated by God; though we do work at it and affect it, the huge faith is no more valid than the small faith --it is God's work. Our work is not without results. But it is all the work of God, not ours apart from God. I have no ability, in and of myself, to do anything worthy. "Apart from me, you can do nothing" is not hyperbole.

So, I believe, monergism rules throughout. But if we do not work, our faith is dead; dead faith is not the living power of God in us.

God gives us commands for a reason. This does not make any sense in Calvinism. God does not like sin. So why does a believer sin? Just look at the story of Jonah. In Jonah 3, we learn that Jonah told the Ninevites that they would be overthrown in 40 days. Yet, that did not happen. Why? Well it was the Ninevites and not God that changed the scenario. The Ninevites had cried out to God and forsaken their evil ways. When God seen that they had forsaken their wickedness, that is when He turned away in bringing wrath or judgment upon them. No election to salvation happened here. Then there is 2 Thessalonians 2:10, and a whole bunch of other verses that don't make sense in Calvinism.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If the murderer is hit by a bus before he has repented of that one sin, he has already been forgiven by God, if indeed he belongs to Christ. It is not ours to judge.

We don't judge. God's Word does the judging for us. 1 John 3:15 says that if any man hates his brother he is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. The only thing that can change a murderer in being forgiven is if they confess of their sins and forsake them. See Proverbs 28:13.

 

[Ceallaigh]

To all:

Lets change the sin. What if this Christian murdered a poor old lady, and then he got hit by a bus, and died. Is he still saved?

The answer then may change for some of you, right? But both looking upon a woman in lust is condemned by Jesus with warnings of hellfire (Matthew 5:28-30), just as murder is condemned by the apostle John (1 John 3:15).

"#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at a woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15)."

Does the Bible say we are Born Again numerous times? Perhaps even daily? Yes or no?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at a woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15)."

So you are copying and pasting what I write? How does this help you? What is your point in doing so?

 

[Mark Quayle]

God gives us commands for a reason. This does not make any sense in Calvinism. God does not like sin. So why does a believer sin? Just look at the story of Jonah. In Jonah 3, we learn that Jonah told the Ninevites that they would be overthrown in 40 days. Yet, that did not happen. Why? Well it was the Ninevites and not God that changed the scenario. The Ninevites had cried out to God and forsaken their evil ways. When God seen that they had forsaken their wickedness, that is when He turned away in bringing wrath or judgment upon them. No election to salvation happened here. Then there is 2 Thessalonians 2:10, and a whole bunch of other verses that don't make sense in Calvinism.

Uh, no. It makes total sense in Calvinism. Your problem with it is that you think Calvinism teaches obedience is automatic, and that the will is not involved. But Calvinism teaches that the will is TOTALLY INVOLVED, but that God has changed it.

You will find it difficult to read the old Reformers (or even the recent ones) without seeing the agony of effort they went (or go) through in working out their salvation. Whole books are written by them on that subject.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Does the Bible say we are Born Again numerous times? Perhaps even daily? Yes or no?

I don't have all the answers, but what I do know is that the Bible does teach that a believer can die spiritually and then come back to spiritual life again. I proved my case with the Bible with two references. Does God regenerate a believer's heart a second time after they died spiritually in going prodigal? I don't know that answer. We look through a glass darkly. What I do know is that they can die spiritually and be made alive again spiritually according to the Parable of the Prodigal Son and James 5:19-20.

 

[Ceallaigh]

So you are copying and pasting what I write? How does this help you? What is your point in doing so?

You wrote

let's change the sin

After you wrote

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at a woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15)."

So you might as well stick with:

Do you believe a Christian is saved if they looked upon a woman in lust and they then got hit by a bus and they died before they got a chance to confess their sins to Jesus?

Which begs the question,

Does the Bible say we are Born Again numerous times? Perhaps even daily? Yes or no?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Uh, no. It makes total sense in Calvinism. Your problem with it is that you think Calvinism teaches obedience is automatic, and that the will is not involved. But Calvinism teaches that the will is TOTALLY INVOLVED, but that God has changed it.

You will find it difficult to read the old Reformers (or even the recent ones) without seeing the agony of effort they went (or go) through in working out their salvation. Whole books are written by them on that subject.

No offense but I see Calvinism as about as bad as believing in a Flat Earth. It's obvious from looking at the Earth that it is not Flat just as it is obvious that by reading the Bible plainly that it does not teach Calvinism. But we can agree to disagree.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Does the Bible say we are Born Again numerous times? Perhaps even daily?

Please read my last post to you (Post #231). I answered your main question to the best of my ability.

 

[Mark Quayle]

We don't judge. God's Word does the judging for us. 1 John 3:15 says that if any man hates his brother he is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. The only thing that can change a murderer in being forgiven is if they confess of their sins and forsake them. See Proverbs 28:13.

If what you say is true, then none of the Elect die without having repented. So your scenario is an impossible fiction.

However, you have not answered the point --let me put it another way: We all hold some sins dear to us, and may not even realize we do so. The habit of anger may stay with us til the day we die, though we have done all we know to do to let go of it. Gluttony, etc, you name it --some have no conviction concerning the things others of us see in them. We think to have repented of them, but a broken and contrite heart he will not despise. 'Sins' are the result of sin in us. Have we repented of our sin? Is God not carving it out of us? Does our sinfulness not break our hearts?

I fully expect my loved ones, the believers, that is, most of them Arminian-leaning as are you, to be in Heaven, just as do they expect me, though many of them find my Reformed Theology detestable, as I find their notion that God must bow to 'free will', detestable. To my mind concerning them, and to their mind concerning me, the opposing point of view demonstrates a heart that still clings to sin, perhaps the love of self-determination, or the laziness toward duty. Yet we none of us believe the other is lost. They, as you, no doubt, do not consider that they love self-determination. I do not consider God's choice of the Elect to be an excuse to be lazy. You see a murderer hit by a bus. What does God, who looks on the heart, see?

But we will all be measured by the standard with which we judge others.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Does the Bible say we are Born Again numerous times? Perhaps even daily? Yes or no?

Hebrews 6 seems to counter that notion. "It is impossible"

 

[Ceallaigh]

To all:

Lets change the sin. What if this Christian murdered a poor old lady, and then he got hit by a bus, and died. Is he still saved?

The answer then may change for some of you, right? But both looking upon a woman in lust is condemned by Jesus with warnings of hellfire (Matthew 5:28-30), just as murder is condemned by the apostle John (1 John 3:15).

What if this Christian murdered a poor old lady, and then confessed, and then he got hit by a bus, and died. Is he still saved?

 

[SkyWriting]

Paul did not teach Belief Alone-ism for salvation:

We really only care what Jesus taught. Paul wasn't there.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Hebrews 6 seems to counter that notion. "It is impossible"

It seems Bible Highlighter is saying that according to the Bible each time you sin you have to become born again. I guess that means you should get baptized again each time as well.

 

[coffee4u]

Then this all the more reason you need to heed the Bible in what it actually says, brother.
Most want the Bible to say what they want it to say.

And that relates to what I said about our corrupted dying bodies how?

Do you not believe that you are not ageing? That’s a new one, never meet anyone who thought they weren’t going to die before.
Also >cough< sister. I’m a woman, but that’s okay.

Let me ask you: Do you believe king David was saved WHILE he committed his sins of adultery and murder? Do you believe a Christian is saved if they looked upon a woman in lust and they then got hit by a bus and they died before they got a chance to confess their sins to Jesus? Do you believe a Christian is saved if they backslide into a lifestyle of sin?

Kind David was not in the same position as we are. He was credited as being righteous as was Noah and Abraham, this did not make them perfect.

6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.

If a person has truly put their faith in Christ, commits a sin and gets hit with a bus in the middle of sinning, yes, they are saved. They are saved because of Christ, not by anything that they did.
If someone has backslid into a life of sin only God knows if they are still saved because only God can look upon their heart.

Again, Paul did not say this as a Christian, but he said this from his past experience as a Pharisee without Jesus in his life. How so? Well, the apostle Paul would be a hypocrite if he told us to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God in 2 Corinthians 7:1 if he was wretched sinner who was enslaved to sin. It would be like your Pastor telling you to stop sinning and yet he was sleeping around with half of the church. Paul said to follow his example as Christ is his example (1 Corinthians 11:1). Paul said we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).

Paul was most definitely a Christian when he wrote Romans.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

I mean, what do you even make of 1 Corinthians 5? Paul told the church body to kick out that Christian who was committing fornication in the church. If Paul was a wretched sinner, then he has no grounds to tell another to not sin. He would be in the same boat of sin with that guy who was kicked out of the church. See.... this is why what you believe is not in line with the Bible. We are saved by God's grace. No doubt about it. But you fail to understand that Titus 2:11-12 says that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live godly and righteously in this present world. How can Paul tell Titus this if he himself is not living godly?

Yes lets look at I Corinthians.

5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you.

I see two very important parts there.

First I see practiced premeditated sin. that a man has his father’s wife!
He didn’t accidentally sleep with his father’s wife. He knew exactly what he was doing, he planned and made a choose to do so.

Secondly and very importantly is the reaction after the act.
And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned,
So instead of being repentant about it, feeling horrible over their sin, they are rather pleased with themselves.

No Christian is happy with sin. No Christian should practice sin. But just because you don't practice sin does not mean you won't sin. Unless you are claiming to be as perfect as Jesus you will have faults.

Which going back to my first post is why I said good deeds flow naturally from being saved. Hating sin also flows naturally from being saved, but this does not mean we will never sin again. If the dog vomits over your pillow and you get angry you have sinned. You didn't plan to sin, your emotions rose up and you sinned. You may be quite sorry after for yelling later but you are not perfect, only God is perfect. Or would your wife if asked say yes you are perfect? I can tell you that I am not perfect and neither is my husband.