Pope Francis backs same-sex civil unions

[hedrick]

In fairness, in common usage "homosexual" seems to be used for both same-gender sex and the orientation.

The distinction certainly exists, and lots of people make it. Here's a review of Catholic teaching: What is the official church teaching on homosexuality? Responding to a commonly asked question. It considers same-gender sex sinful but not having a homosexual orientation. I believe many traditional Protestants make the same distinction.

When translations of 1 Cor 6:9 use "homosexual" it's hard to know why. Given the potential for misunderstanding, I would expect a different translation. The current NIV says explicitly "men who have sex with men." While I'm not sure that's what the word really means, at least it's an accurate translation of the conjecture they have adopted, unlike "homosexual."

 

[HIM]

The word used there doesn't correctly translate to 'homosexual'.

You can be homosexual and Christian as long as you are abstinent.

Yes it does

 

[Strathos]

Yes it does

There is actually no established translation of the word 'arsenokoites'.

Furthermore, why could an abstinent homosexual not be a Christian?

 

[The Ant]

The word used there doesn't correctly translate to 'homosexual'.

You can be homosexual and Christian as long as you are abstinent.

Thank you. This is the point I have been trying to make. The holy books (more correctly, the men who wrote them) speak of certain behaviours as being repugnant. Never does it condemn for BEING gay.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I’ll try again. Can you please show me where your holy books condemn people for being homosexual? Because, like hedrick, I see only pronouncements about certain sexual behaviours. The pope seems to recognise this distinction.

What made you believe that I believe that? I only questioned your bizarre theological conclusion that because God created someone that must mean he wants them be what they desire. It's not a very mature theological conclusion for anyone to reach if you think on the subject.

 

[The Ant]

What made you believe that I believe that? I only questioned your bizarre theological conclusion that because God created someone that must mean he wants them be what they desire. It's not a very mature theological conclusion for anyone to reach if you think on the subject.

Think you should do some re-reading. I said no such thing. 9th commandment?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Think you should do some re-reading. I said no such thing. 9th commandment?

Here was my original question "

"Some people are born with an innate attraction to horses. Do I have to believe as, a theist, that God made and blessed them that way?"

Here's how you answered it.

"If, as a theist, you believe that your god creates all life as we witness it, then I guess the answer for you would be yes?"

Do you not believe it to be a proper theological conclusion to reach that we must bless and approve of all of our desires because God created us? I know you're an atheist, but you seem to think that this is a Christian Idea. If not, then I'll admit I was wrong.

 

[The Ant]

Here was my original question "

"Some people are born with an innate attraction to horses. Do I have to believe as, a theist, that God made and blessed them that way?"

Here's how you answered it.

"If, as a theist, you believe that your god creates all life as we witness it, then I guess the answer for you would be yes?"

Do you not believe it to be a proper theological conclusion to reach that we must bless and approve of all of our desires because God created us? I know you're an atheist, but you seem to think that this is a Christian Idea. If not, then I'll admit I was wrong.

Did you some how overlook the “If” at the beginning of the sentence and the question mark at the conclusion?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Did you some how overlook the “If” at the beginning of the sentence and the question mark at the conclusion?

So you don't think that because we believe God made someone that therefore we have to approve of that person's actions?

Very well then, I apologize for misunderstanding. Though why you would compare black people to homosexuals is a little odd. Being black is something you can't really help or control. You can control how you use your sexuality, even if you can't control the desire.

 

[The Ant]

So you don't think that because we believe God made someone that therefore we have to approve of that person's actions?

Very well then, I apologize for misunderstanding. Though why you would compare black people to homosexuals is a little odd. Being black is something you can't really help or control. You can control how you use your sexuality, even if you can't control the desire.

And your last sentence is the whole key. BEING homosexual is, according to most gay people, the same as being black. It is something they can’t control. It is something upon which they made no decision, in the same way that you and I made no ‘decision’ to be straight.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

And your last sentence is the whole key. BEING homosexual is, according to most gay people, the same as being black. It is something they can’t control. It is something upon which they made no decision, in the same way that you and I made no ‘decision’ to be straight.

That makes as much sense to me as saying being heterosexual is the same as being black. Can I chose my desire? No, but I can chose what I do with that desire. Seems to me the problem with such a comparison is that sexuality is reliant on a state of reaction to people, rather than state of being proper. If I turn off all the lights, the person is still black regardless. Same if I turn on all the lights and blend into a white room.

And yes, we can control ourselves sexually. Most of us simply don't want to because the pleasure is more immediately fulfilling and sensational.

I just wish the Pope would mention more often how Homosexuality is intrinsically more disordered as per Catholic theology. Instead he gives simpletons the wrong message about what Catholicism actually teaches (and by extension Christianity).

 

[The Ant]

That makes as much sense to me as saying being heterosexual is the same as being black.

But it is! Did you make a conscious decision to be heterosexual, or were you just born that way? It’s the same for gay people. Try listening to them.

Can I chose my desire? No, but I can chose what I do with that desire.

Exactly! That’s behaviour and we can all make decisions about our behaviour.

And yes, we can control ourselves sexually. Most of us simply don't want to because the pleasure is more immediately fulfilling and sensational.

Speak for yourself.

I just wish the Pope would mention more often how Homosexuality is intrinsically more disordered as per Catholic theology. Instead he gives simpletons the wrong message about what Catholicism actually teaches (and by extension Christianity).

Again, as has been pointed out repeatedly, those teachings are about sexual behaviour, not identity.

 

[HIM]

There is actually no established translation of the word 'arsenokoites'.

Sure there is.
Strongs:
ἀρσενοκοίτης
arsenokoitës
ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace
From G730 and G2845; a sodomite: - abuser of (that defile) self with mankind.

Thayer Definition:
1) one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G730 and G2845

Here is Thayer unabridged:
ἀρσενοκοίτης, ἀρσενοκοιτου, ὁ (ἄρσην a male; κοίτη a bed), one who lies with a male as with a female, a sodomite: 1Co 6:9; 1Ti 1:10. (Anthol. 9, 686, 5; ecclesiastical writings.)*

How about the BDAG:
ἀρσενοκοίτης, ου, ὁ (ἄρσην ‘male’ + κοίτη ‘bed’; Bardesanes 719 fgm. 3b 10, 25 p. 653 Jac. [in Eus., PE 6, 10, 25]; Anth. Pal. 9, 686, 5 and Cat. Cod. Astr. VIII/4 p. 196, 6 and 8 have the sp. ἀρρενοκοίτης; Theoph. Ant. 1, 2 [p. 60, 27]; in a vice list—ἀρσενοκοιτεῖν SibOr 2, 73; AcJ 36 [Aa II/1, 169]; cp. the association of ἄρσην and κοίτη Lev 20:13, s. Soph. Lex.: ἀ.= ὁ μετὰ ἄρσενος κοιμώμενος κοίτην γυναικείαν=‘one who has intercourse w. a man as w. a woman’; cp. the formation of μητροκοίτης [μήτηρ + κοίτη] ‘one who has intercourse w. his mother’ Hipponax 15, 2 Diehl3 [=Degani 20, 2]) a male who engages in sexual activity w. a pers. of his own sex, pederast 1 Cor 6:9

Furthermore, why could an abstinent homosexual not be a Christian?

A homosexual is a person who is sexual attracted to a person of their own sex.
A delivered homosexual is no longer a homosexual.

In John 8:31-36 Jesus was asked, "How can we be in bondage?" He answered, "If one commits sin he is a servant to it. And If the Son has set you free we are indeed."
As 1 Cor 6:11 states, "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

If we still have the attraction our hearts are committing the act and we need to confess and repent. Matt 5:27-30

If we ourselves find pleasure, desire (lusting) said acts even if we ourselves are not doing them we are condemned.

Romans 1 goes into this after condemning homosexuals.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[Strathos]

Sure there is.
Strongs:
ἀρσενοκοίτης
arsenokoitës
ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace
From G730 and G2845; a sodomite: - abuser of (that defile) self with mankind.

Thayer Definition:
1) one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G730 and G2845

Here is Thayer unabridged:
ἀρσενοκοίτης, ἀρσενοκοιτου, ὁ (ἄρσην a male; κοίτη a bed), one who lies with a male as with a female, a sodomite: 1Co 6:9; 1Ti 1:10. (Anthol. 9, 686, 5; ecclesiastical writings.)*

How about the BDAG:
ἀρσενοκοίτης, ου, ὁ (ἄρσην ‘male’ + κοίτη ‘bed’; Bardesanes 719 fgm. 3b 10, 25 p. 653 Jac. [in Eus., PE 6, 10, 25]; Anth. Pal. 9, 686, 5 and Cat. Cod. Astr. VIII/4 p. 196, 6 and 8 have the sp. ἀρρενοκοίτης; Theoph. Ant. 1, 2 [p. 60, 27]; in a vice list—ἀρσενοκοιτεῖν SibOr 2, 73; AcJ 36 [Aa II/1, 169]; cp. the association of ἄρσην and κοίτη Lev 20:13, s. Soph. Lex.: ἀ.= ὁ μετὰ ἄρσενος κοιμώμενος κοίτην γυναικείαν=‘one who has intercourse w. a man as w. a woman’; cp. the formation of μητροκοίτης [μήτηρ + κοίτη] ‘one who has intercourse w. his mother’ Hipponax 15, 2 Diehl3 [=Degani 20, 2]) a male who engages in sexual activity w. a pers. of his own sex, pederast 1 Cor 6:9

Considering that the word seems to have been invented by Paul and is not used elsewhere, it's a matter of significant scholarly debate. At most you could say it applies to people who actually engage in homosexual acts, rather than those who simply have the orientation.

A homosexual is a person who is sexual attracted to a person of their own sex.
A delivered homosexual is no longer a homosexual.

In John 8:31-36 Jesus was asked, "How can we be in bondage?" He answered, "If one commits sin he is a servant to it. And If the Son has set you free we are indeed."
As 1 Cor 6:11 states, "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

If we still have the attraction our hearts are committing the act and we need to confess and repent. Matt 5:27-30

If we ourselves find pleasure, desire (lusting) said acts even if we ourselves are not doing them we are condemned.

Romans 1 goes into this after condemning homosexuals.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

The same applies to heterosexuals, though. You can't say that a heterosexual Christian can never be tempted. The point is resisting the temptation, and seeking forgiveness.

 

[SilverBear]

It is not bigotry.

if this were about any other minority it would be called bigotry and rightly so.

 

[SilverBear]

Chapter 1&2 of Romans Paul explains that homosexuality is a self imposed curse as a result of sinful lifestyles.
It is a dreadful thing to be cursed with moral turpitude in such a fashion. Because they can't/won't repent from their self imposed curse.
They claim that God made them this way but God doesn't make sin. Mankind makes sin. And where this wasn't the goal of their sins it definitely became the results. Removed from the gene pool by means of inability to repent.
Then there's the studies that show that over 80% of Homosexuals are actually bisexual. Meaning that they are truly guilty of moral turpitude despite any other claim to the contrary.

i doubt you will do so but i will ask you to reference these "studies"

 

[SilverBear]

Also if you really knew scriptures and the Hebrew language you would know that Hebrew is a highly metaphoric language. Hebrew also contains no bad words for such things as "thief" or "prostitute". They had to use a euphemism to explain these concepts.

הַגַּנָּ֖ב gannab thief
קָדֵ֖שׁ qadesh prostitute

 

[SilverBear]

You made the lamest theological argument in history and resort to calling your opponent a bigot. I think it's reasonable to mock your idea that simply because God made someone that therefore we must support their desires.

You don't need books on homosexuality. You need basic books on theology itself. God read Augustine's city of God or literally anything.

Actually the lamest argument is trying to compare gays to pedophiles. Comparing them to people who have sex with animals is a close second

 

[SilverBear]

1Cor 6:9 Or do you* not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be misled: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor perverts, nor homosexuals,
1Cor 6:10 nor greedy people, nor thieves, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Cor 6:11 And these were some of you*: but you* were bathed, but you* were sanctified, but you* were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and in the Spirit of our God.

1Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that law is not laid down for a righteous one, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,
1Tim 1:10 for fornicators, for homosexuals, for kidnappers, for liars, for false swearers and if any other thing that is antagonizing to the sound teaching;
1Tim 1:11 according to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, with which I was entrusted.

unsupported translation.

 

[SilverBear]

Sure there is.
Strongs:
ἀρσενοκοίτης
arsenokoitës
ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace
From G730 and G2845; a sodomite: - abuser of (that defile) self with mankind.

Thayer Definition:
1) one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G730 and G2845

Here is Thayer unabridged:
ἀρσενοκοίτης, ἀρσενοκοιτου, ὁ (ἄρσην a male; κοίτη a bed), one who lies with a male as with a female, a sodomite: 1Co 6:9; 1Ti 1:10. (Anthol. 9, 686, 5; ecclesiastical writings.)*

How about the BDAG:
ἀρσενοκοίτης, ου, ὁ (ἄρσην ‘male’ + κοίτη ‘bed’; Bardesanes 719 fgm. 3b 10, 25 p. 653 Jac. [in Eus., PE 6, 10, 25]; Anth. Pal. 9, 686, 5 and Cat. Cod. Astr. VIII/4 p. 196, 6 and 8 have the sp. ἀρρενοκοίτης; Theoph. Ant. 1, 2 [p. 60, 27]; in a vice list—ἀρσενοκοιτεῖν SibOr 2, 73; AcJ 36 [Aa II/1, 169]; cp. the association of ἄρσην and κοίτη Lev 20:13, s. Soph. Lex.: ἀ.= ὁ μετὰ ἄρσενος κοιμώμενος κοίτην γυναικείαν=‘one who has intercourse w. a man as w. a woman’; cp. the formation of μητροκοίτης [μήτηρ + κοίτη] ‘one who has intercourse w. his mother’ Hipponax 15, 2 Diehl3 [=Degani 20, 2]) a male who engages in sexual activity w. a pers. of his own sex, pederast 1 Cor 6:9

homosexual is just the latest in a long list of words arsenokoites has been translated into. Over the centuries it has also been translated as masturbation, kidnapper, men who employ prostitutes and men who sexually molest their daughters among other things