Hypocrite "Christian" men

[Paidiske]

I don't blame the women so much as blame the church and its lame pastoral oversight, for being ineffective in helping men and women in the church be properly prepared for marriage. Active post-marriage mentoring by pastoral couples is almost non-existent.

My observation is that people don't want this from their churches. They might come to formal marriage preparation with their minister (and they might not); but active post-marriage counselling is something they seek elsewhere, if at all. (Most of the time I find one spouse will talk to me while the other refuses to acknowledge or address the issues).

Before blaming the churches, remember that we can only be involved in people's lives to the extent that they invite and permit us to be. And often, particularly when it comes to marriage, that invitation and permission is not there.

 

[Tony B]

Even if she hasn’t, she’ll stand with you nonetheless because she believes in you. That’s how love works. You don’t need identical circumstances. You need committed people who want to stay put.

If God can demonstrate the same to two unsaved girls who met on the Internet and built a lifelong connection. How much more for His servant who loves Him?

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

Yes, quite right Bella.

And there are people out there that have a much purer heart than mine, naturally. They are able to empathise with others even though they may not have been through their experiences, it's like they have a sixth sense.

As for me, being so thick headed and unaware or insensitive to what other people may be going through, I had to learn the hard way.

Thank you for sharing your insight.

And yes, God is not restrained by my small or narrowed thinking.

Shalom.

 

[Tony B]

Before blaming the churches, remember that we can only be involved in people's lives to the extent that they invite and permit us to be. And often, particularly when it comes to marriage, that invitation and permission is not there.

Yes, and no.

Our fellowship model is wrong. It takes too long for people to gain trust in the church oversight, and develop a personal relationship with them so that they feel at ease raising difficult personal issues with them, and vice versa.

A good fellowship model will have an oversight couple and a manageable number of people meeting regularly and socially in their home or suitable places, weekly or more often as circumstances permit, so they develop as an extended family unit. Good oversight can provide targeted and dynamic counsel regarding Christian lifestyle and relationship issues more readily in that environment. Also they have more and better opportunities to educate and mentor their flock, directly yet passively, through showing and leading by example.

 

[Paidiske]

Also, a good fellowship model will have an oversight couple and a manageable number of people meeting regularly and socially in their home or suitable places, weekly or more often as circumstances permit, so they develop as an extended family unit. Good oversight can provide targeted and dynamic counsel regarding Christian lifestyle and relationship issues more readily in that environment. Also they have more and better opportunities to educate and mentor their flock, directly yet passively, through showing and leading by example.

I certainly wouldn't be prepared to inhabit such a model. It sounds very unhealthy and with very poor boundaries to me.

 

[Francis Drake]

I've noticed there's a specific mold in the "Christian" community:

The-"Christian"-man-who-thinks-its-ok-to-watch-porn-and-have-premarital-sex-with-women-yet-somehow-believes-he-deserves-to-marry-a-virgin

This mold is everywhere, probably in this forum. The arrogance of this behavior Is ungodly. Nowhere in the Old Testament or New did our father, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob tell men to engage in as much premarital sex as possible to whoever will give it to him, but be sure to marry a virgin. Both men and women are to remain virgins until marriage, and if a man chooses not to meet the standard, he has no right to disqualify women for marriage simply because they have done what he himself has also done. Disgusting.

Time and time again we see in the Bible that God hates hypocrites and this area is no different. Study the scriptures and you will find that it turns out that God isn't your 'bro' who wants you to score all the chicks before settling down. Study the scriptures and you will find He holds both sexes to the same standard.

And all you "Christian" porn/masturbation addicts out there, continuously deleting your browser history yet professing to be sexually pure, watching pornography is a sin, too. Pray about it. Look it up.

I have no doubt you are right, but there is equal hypocrisy among women.

Male pornography is primarily visual, and because of that it is dead easy to spot, photos on their phones, porno magazines, porno videos etc. But as I found out with my ex wife, females have an altogether different level of pornography, completely hidden from view.

Decades ago, by chance, when I was waiting around for a few minutes at home, I happened to pick up a romance novel my wife was reading. I opened at random and started to read and to my horror found it was so sexually descriptive and detailed that it didn't need photos. It was also part of a genre she was regularly reading and left around the house completely invisible to the male eye. I have no idea whether my teenage daughter who was a book worm also read them.

I might add that my wife had an affair and left me sometime after this.

Countless romance novels regularly read by christian women are in fact pornographic and thoroughly addictive.
It is hypocrisy to accuse men, whilst not addressing the same iniquity in women, just because they can hide their addictions.

Just to be clear, I am not justifying male pornography, and no I do not have a problem in that area. Like most young men, at school I was captured by it, and still struggled when I became a Christian. At some stage I realised the bondage was not just fleshly lust, but demonic. When I was delivered of those sexual demons, the bondage also went.

I would advocate that if people are truly repentant of pornographic lusts, they also get deliverance from the demons that empower that lust.
Deliverance makes dealing with the flesh a free choice of obedience rather than an exhausting battle.

 

[Tony B]

I offer I am not saying what you are. I did not mean you are or are not.

I am offering what has been good for me, in case it is good for you . . . since you did ask how to find God's church . . . right?

Yes, there are major problems in church culture. But Jesus has His sheep who have His pastors for them. And my experience is we can find these people in church settings, but be ready to also discover the exact opposite. In order to have genuine relating with Christ's pastors and sheep, we need to be ready for dealing also with ones who are against God's people; because where God's people are, there are Satan's opposing. And Jesus has us loving them > Matthew 5:46, 1 Timothy 2:1-4.

So, possibly, by the way, you can see I am going with scripture about how to love; so this is not only about what I think, but I have discovered things God's word says, which I am offering.

I appreciate your conciliatory approach, and your willingness to offer your opinion and advice.

I have a slightly different approach to fellowship than yours. I prefer, after I've sought an audience with and discussed serious issues with elders, if they persist in allowing seriously unChristlike practices to continue in their fellowship, then I'll remove myself from their midst. I do that so that I'm not seen to support anti-Christ behaviour, and to keep my own behaviour from being corrupted through association.

I'm of the opinion that anyone dwelling inside the boundary of the church of God should feel safe from temptation or hurt. Therefore if there is a person or belief or practise prevalent that will put their welfare or The Lord's honour at risk, it can't be tolerated. Two warnings...and no change....put it/them out or separate from them for your own life's sake. We need to be that tenacious.

 

[Tony B]

I certainly wouldn't be prepared to inhabit such a model. It sounds very unhealthy and with very poor boundaries to me.

Not sure how you have come to that conclusion.

Indeed, perhaps quite the opposite to you, where I've seen the model I've suggested being practised to any degree, the product from it has been far more spiritually mature than what I've encountered out of the traditional denominational fellowship model that is congealed around a worship service or other formal gathering.

To be honest I'm not surprised that the model I've suggested works, because I didn't think of it, and it is the same model of fellowship that was in vogue at the time of the apostles.

 

[Tony B]

Countless romance novels regularly read by christian women are in fact pornographic and thoroughly addictive.
It is hypocrisy to accuse men, whilst not addressing the same iniquity in women, just because they can hide their addictions.

I agree with this. My ex used to read a lot of Mills and Boon romantic novels, which in my opinion gave her an unrealistic expectation of what normal romance is like. She never raised the subject with me, even though I was open to discussing anything she wished to talk about.

I think two things came out of her reading these novels that helped wreck our marriage...one was that in her eyes I could never meet the level of romantic input she believed was her right, and two, that gave her an excuse in her mind for her adulterous behaviour.

 

[bèlla]

And there are people out there that have a much purer heart than mine, naturally. They are able to empathise with others even though they may not have been through their experiences, it's like they have a sixth sense.

Thank you Tony.

Everyone struggles. We aren't unscathed by negative experiences. Some wounds take longer to heal. We require different handling when addressing sensitive topics. This subject is near to your heart. The right confidante will listen and hear the things you don't articulate and provide a loving response.

As for me, being so thick headed and unaware or insensitive to what other people may be going through, I had to learn the hard way.

Perhaps that's necessary for the work you're meant to perform and the Lord provides companions to offset your deficiencies.

I have the ability to see beauty in strange places. Brokenness doesn't hinder my sight. I see beyond it. With that comes the necessity for deeper listening, encouraging and counseling. That's why it exists. But there's a downside too. I take people as they are. I don't look for angles, narratives, etc. I believe what you say until you show me otherwise. That can be troublesome too. The Lord provided a buffer to keep me safe and minimize exploitation. That's my risk.

A strength can be a weakness if you look closely.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

 

[bèlla]

Decades ago, by chance, when I was waiting around for a few minutes at home, I happened to pick up a romance novel my wife was reading. I opened at random and started to read and to my horror found it was so sexually descriptive and detailed that it didn't need photos.

You're correct.

I worked on a team promoting the Christian rebuttal to 50 Shades of Grey. One of the observations of the authors was the prevalent consumption of romantic novels and soft porn by Christian women. Especially married ones. They acknowledged the ease of access through digital readers and the likelihood their spouses were clueless.

For many, the novels are escapist. The storylines feed a hidden desire for the perfect man who's always available, attentive, sensual and wealthy. Digesting that in large measures fosters mental comparisons in some. She's reading about Mr. Wonderful and living with Mr. Ordinary and the difference is frustrating. Discontent sets in and arguments follow and the downward spiral begins.

Novels marketed to Christian women aren't pornographic. But they're termed 'bodice rippers' in the industry. Amish titles dominate that sector. While I don't read romance as a rule, I prefer classics. I've read several Amish books. They're clean and the storylines are wholesome. But too much of it would mess with my head.

It's bad enough I like Mr. Darcy! I don't feel its wise to feed my selectivity. I moderate my exposure and recommend the same for all susceptibilities. Otherwise, you'll make them worse.

Sexuality is a challenging subject in Christian circles. I think honesty and openness is the right approach. Couples shouldn't lead double lives. Hiding your interests and desires is counterproductive to oneness. While the other may not agree, keeping secrets rarely ends well. We need to tell the truth.

The Internet exposed people to a lot of things. Good and bad. Non engagement doesn't mean they're ignorant. That's the difference. You can encounter a lot from your smart phone. That requires a different dialogue that isn't replete with thou shall nots. It doesn't foster transparency and that's the goal.

I don't believe the church is prepared to do this. Mark Driscoll's book created a stir. The onus is on couples and knowledgeable pastors and teachers willing to take it on. But for the most part, you're on your own.

The marriage bed is sacred. If your companion is seeking release through visual or written means you need to ask why. What is it feeding in them? What are they longing for in the relationship? What lack are they compensating? Lust isn't always the root. That's the coping mechanism for most.

I'm glad you're in a healthy and thriving relationship. If I wasn't called to fashion I'd tackle human/psycho sexuality. It's an interesting subject.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

 

[Paidiske]

Not sure how you have come to that conclusion.

From your description. An "oversight couple," rather than one person who will hold your relationship in confidentiality. The blurring of lines between pastoral and social relationships. The blurring of roles in the language of "extended family." And the way you describe the care being given makes it sound intrusive and oppressive (frankly controlling). (Nor does it sound like what I understand to have been the way the apostles lived and worked).

Nope. I have a spiritual director and a supervisor, but neither of them have any other relationship with me. And they hold their work with me in confidence, and that work is not done in the presence of others. The roles and boundaries are clear. There is safety in that.

 

[chad kincham]

I've noticed there's a specific mold in the "Christian" community:

The-"Christian"-man-who-thinks-its-ok-to-watch-porn-and-have-premarital-sex-with-women-yet-somehow-believes-he-deserves-to-marry-a-virgin

This mold is everywhere, probably in this forum. The arrogance of this behavior Is ungodly. Nowhere in the Old Testament or New did our father, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob tell men to engage in as much premarital sex as possible to whoever will give it to him, but be sure to marry a virgin. Both men and women are to remain virgins until marriage, and if a man chooses not to meet the standard, he has no right to disqualify women for marriage simply because they have done what he himself has also done. Disgusting.

Time and time again we see in the Bible that God hates hypocrites and this area is no different. Study the scriptures and you will find that it turns out that God isn't your 'bro' who wants you to score all the chicks before settling down. Study the scriptures and you will find He holds both sexes to the same standard.

And all you "Christian" porn/masturbation addicts out there, continuously deleting your browser history yet professing to be sexually pure, watching pornography is a sin, too. Pray about it. Look it up.

Part of the problem is the plethora of false teachings that makes grace a license to sin, such as the hyper-grace teachers that lie and say there’s no need to repent of any sins as a Christian because future sins were forgiven when they were saved, and the OSAS lie is part of that.

Then you have many Catholics that make going to confession a license to sin, because they live like the devil during the week, then confess their sins to a priest (who claims he can absolve their sins as if he were God), and their sins don’t matter.

 

[SimpleLiving2019]

I've noticed there's a specific mold in the "Christian" community:

The-"Christian"-man-who-thinks-its-ok-to-watch-porn-and-have-premarital-sex-with-women-yet-somehow-believes-he-deserves-to-marry-a-virgin

This mold is everywhere, probably in this forum. The arrogance of this behavior Is ungodly. Nowhere in the Old Testament or New did our father, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob tell men to engage in as much premarital sex as possible to whoever will give it to him, but be sure to marry a virgin. Both men and women are to remain virgins until marriage, and if a man chooses not to meet the standard, he has no right to disqualify women for marriage simply because they have done what he himself has also done. Disgusting.

Time and time again we see in the Bible that God hates hypocrites and this area is no different. Study the scriptures and you will find that it turns out that God isn't your 'bro' who wants you to score all the chicks before settling down. Study the scriptures and you will find He holds both sexes to the same standard.

And all you "Christian" porn/masturbation addicts out there, continuously deleting your browser history yet professing to be sexually pure, watching pornography is a sin, too. Pray about it. Look it up.

Here is a lot of the problem...some people who identify as Christians are not born again. How do I know? I was one of them.

If you had asked me at any point in my life, I would have told you I was a Christian, but I wasn’t actually born again till I was around 29 years old, when I actually approached and sought God with all my heart, specifically calling on Jesus Christ (I had always half wondered how Jesus fit into everything before that, people can walk in apathetic ignorance for years, I did)

Up till then, God would draw me, and I would respond to some extent and then go back to my worldly things. After I was born again, God has been my prime focus ever since, never losing sight of him daily, and he deals with sin in my life, cleaning me up so I can draw closer to him.

So, to sum up, a lot of people just aren’t saved, I wasn’t till I was born again, and if someone told me I was, they would have been incorrect.

 

[Tony B]

From your description. An "oversight couple," rather than one person who will hold your relationship in confidentiality. The blurring of lines between pastoral and social relationships. The blurring of roles in the language of "extended family." And the way you describe the care being given makes it sound intrusive and oppressive (frankly controlling). (Nor does it sound like what I understand to have been the way the apostles lived and worked).

Nope. I have a spiritual director and a supervisor, but neither of them have any other relationship with me. And they hold their work with me in confidence, and that work is not done in the presence of others. The roles and boundaries are clear. There is safety in that.

Elders in the church of God are under the direction and counsel of The Holy Spirit, and they have to be prepared to roll their sleeves up and pitch in to fend off the threats to the church, and those threats are targeting singles and couples of any age, and they come from the evil one direct, and through others.

For a man-derived religious faith, Satan's ready access to it is a given, and will often go unnoticed. But to the church of God, not so. Indeed, in that church, if one member is being attacked, we all are being attached...we are attached to each other. The role of the elders is oversight, and if they aren't being actively involved in that down to specific care for each member, then what's the use of them!

 

[Paidiske]

The role of the elders is oversight, and if they aren't being actively involved in that down to specific care for each member, then what's the use of them!

I'm not arguing against oversight. I'm arguing for healthy and appropriate oversight.

 

[Tony B]

Here is a lot of the problem...some people who identify as Christians are not born again. How do I know? I was one of them.

If you had asked me at any point in my life, I would have told you I was a Christian, but I wasn’t actually born again till I was around 29 years old, when I actually approached and sought God with all my heart, specifically calling on Jesus Christ (I had always half wondered how Jesus fit into everything before that, people can walk in apathetic ignorance for years, I did)

Up till then, God would draw me, and I would respond to some extent and then go back to my worldly things. After I was born again, God has been my prime focus ever since, never losing sight of him daily, and he deals with sin in my life, cleaning me up so I can draw closer to him.

So, to sum up, a lot of people just aren’t saved, I wasn’t till I was born again, and if someone told me I was, they would have been incorrect.

Same here.

 

[Tony B]

I'm not arguing against oversight. I'm arguing for healthy and appropriate oversight.

I absolutely agree with you, as would Paul and the other apostles too. We can see from the selection criteria Paul gave Timothy, and reiterated to Titus, the kind of man suitable for an oversight role in service to God, in serving His church.

In respect of the complaint put forward by the OP, an elder and his wife would be understanding of the sensual and sexual challenges facing the contemporary church, and will direct care and education to singles and couples, and specifically to those that might be at high risk of being drawn off by the evil one into sexual imorality. To identify those singles and couples at risk, they need a fellowship model that is amenable to they and their wife being able to establish familia-type relationships with members of the flock they are providing care to. They need to hear what is happening, to a reasonable degree, in the lives of every member.

 

[Paidiske]

I absolutely agree with you, as would Paul and the other apostles too. We can see from the selection criteria Paul gave Timothy, and reiterated to Titus, the kind of man suitable for an oversight role in service to God, in serving His church.

In respect of the complaint put forward by the OP, an elder and his wife would be understanding of the sensual and sexual challenges facing the contemporary church, and will direct care and education to singles and couples, and specifically to those that might be at high risk of being drawn off by the evil one into sexual imorality. To identify those singles and couples at risk, they need a fellowship model that is amenable to they and their wife being able to establish familia-type relationships with members of the flock they are providing care to. They need to hear what is happening, to a reasonable degree, in the lives of every member.

No, I disagree. First, an elder's wife (or spouse) is not part of the elder's ministry and should not be involved in what should be confidential conversations.

Second, it's up to members of the church what and how much they want to share. The assumption that everyone should be expected to be in some kind of family type of relationship with their elders is not at all appropriate (and also places unrealistic demand on said elders, who need their own physical and emotional space and actual family relationships).

Care and education, concern for those at risk, yes, absolutely. But with boundaries and within the scope of what people are willing to share, not in any way making sharing compulsory or a condition of being part of that church community.

 

[Tony B]

No, I disagree. First, an elder's wife (or spouse) is not part of the elder's ministry and should not be involved in what should be confidential conversations.

Second, it's up to members of the church what and how much they want to share. The assumption that everyone should be expected to be in some kind of family type of relationship with their elders is not at all appropriate (and also places unrealistic demand on said elders, who need their own physical and emotional space and actual family relationships).

Care and education, concern for those at risk, yes, absolutely. But with boundaries and within the scope of what people are willing to share, not in any way making sharing compulsory or a condition of being part of that church community.

Well, that's the model in practice in your denomination, but it is definitely not the model required by God for His church.

 

[Paidiske]

Well, that's the model in practice in your denomination, but it is definitely not the model required by God for His church.

God does not require lack of confidentiality, lack of boundaries, or coercive relationships.