The Rapture theory is true?

[Timtofly]

Well, we could argue about the transformation of our bodies requiring our old physical bodies to be "gone forever" or whether the atoms are simply reorganized, just as we could argue about the "new" earth not really being new but "renewed", I think it doesn't really matter either way.

More important is the timing of our transformation. Although I fear we may be straying off topic a bit here, I would like to argue that our transformation does not happen immediately at death, but rather on the last day.

The Cross of Christ was the last Day. We have past the last day for 1990+ years. There is no future last day for those in Christ. The last day, GWT is for those who lived their whole physical life for themselves and were never in Christ.

It seems to me those who are still looking for the last day, are still stuck in the OT, and fail to see that Jesus Christ on the Cross was that Last OT Day. That is Judaism, still waiting for the Messiah.

 

[BABerean2]

There is no bodily resurrection.

1Co_15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:


.

 

[Timtofly]

You have not answered my question: in 3b, is the man of sin revealed, or is he not revealed? It is a simple question. Just read it and tell me what you read in your words.

Both the FP and Satan will be revealed. The FP first to "prepare" the hearts for Satan's reception if the order of Revelation 13 is followed. If this happens in the 4th seal, then Satan will already be revealed. If not, then Satan will physically be in opposition this time with Jesus Christ instead of just tempting Jesus alone in the wilderness.

 

[Timtofly]

This is simply not truth. It is only those who died "IN CHRIST" and that leaves out OT saints.

How can you deny that they were waiting in Abraham's bosom until the moment the Atonement was made on the Cross. That is when those in "captivity" were set "free". Satan desired Moses' body in this captivity but was denied. Moses and Elijah came from and returned to Paradise before the Cross. You are claiming the OT is still in Abraham's bosom and deny their physical resurrection when Jesus freed them from sheol. Are you claiming that Moses and Elijah did not have an incorruptible body on the mount of transfiguration? Or just Elijah. What was Moses seen in then?

 

[Timtofly]

1Co_15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:.

We are bodily raised in Christ. Do you think in Christ means "not in Christ"? Or are we just half way in Christ, and the rest of us will catch up some day? I am totally in Christ 100%. It is foolish human teaching that you are only in Christ 50%. Someday the last 50% of you will be in Christ. You claim a new covenant yet leave 50% of you in the old covenant???

There is a resurrection of the dead. The OT dead in sheol, in Abraham's bosom. Are those in Christ still in sheol in Abraham's bosom??? NO!!! The resurrection of Christ was the one and only physical resurrection of those in Christ. Both the OT and NT are now in Christ in Incorruptible bodies in Paradise.

 

[iamlamad]

Does it matter how carnal flesh defines death? The Scriptures constantly portray it as falling asleep. Technically we fall asleep in one body and immediately wake up in an incorruptible body in Paradise. Some take it too literally and claim the soul is asleep, until some future resurrection. They are literally saying the soul is dead until a resurrection. Then some have to claim, no, it is spiritual. No! it is neither! Those in Christ are physically in Paradise. They have an incorruptible body. There is nothing spiritual, meaning a ghost or spirit condition in Paradise. It is a better body than this carnal tent. What heaven is is hidden in a veil. It is not another dimension or realm. If a person is blind, the world around them is not in another dimension or spiritual realm. They just can not use the sense of sight to experience the world. Sinful human flesh blinds us to the physical reality of heaven, angels, and Paradise. In physical death we are no longer blinded by sin and carnal flesh.

Salvation is just a credit of what is to come. Every believer holds the keys to loose and bind God's will on earth. Most never take advantage of this "birthright" in Christ. Most do not even let the Holy Spirit give them the power to face their daily battles. Satan through the desires of the flesh, has them blinded to the truth. "Eve saw that the tree was good for both Physical food and Physical wisdom", because she listened to Satan, and trusted (had faith) in Satan's Physical promises. Now we are blind to God’s Physical part of creation. Satan caused such to be spiritualized, out of reach of sinful flesh. God allowed Satan to change Adam's descendants in the same manner as Job himself was blindsided by Satan. Satan was not solo in the act. Adam and Eve also chose freely, Satan’s misleading advice.

Jesus story of the rich man and Lazarus would tell a different story.

Just imagine someone dies, and they are escorted to heaven. Immediately then see millions of souls lying around, not moving, so many even the streets of gold are impassible. Jesus comes to greet this someone, and he or she asks: Jesus, why are all these people just laying here, not moving? Jesus answers, "they are in soul sleep!"

Sorry, I don't buy it!

 

[iamlamad]

We are bodily raised in Christ. Do you think in Christ means "not in Christ"? Or are we just half way in Christ, and the rest of us will catch up some day? I am totally in Christ 100%. It is foolish human teaching that you are only in Christ 50%. Someday the last 50% of you will be in Christ. You claim a new covenant yet leave 50% of you in the old covenant???

There is a resurrection of the dead. The OT dead in sheol, in Abraham's bosom. Are those in Christ still in sheol in Abraham's bosom??? NO!!! The resurrection of Christ was the one and only physical resurrection of those in Christ. Both the OT and NT are now in Christ in Incorruptible bodies in Paradise.

You have a nice imagination. Too bad it cannot be proven or backed up with scripture.

Question: have you ever noticed you were wrong about something since coming to this forum and made an appropriate change?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Those references prove others have translated that verse differently that the KJV. A departing can be a departing from different things or places. Paul chose not to tell us...at least not in so many words.

Did you mean some other translation than the KJV?

2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The KJV translates it as "a falling away" not "a departing". How can the phrase "falling away" describe people being caught up from the earth? In other words, how can you fall away from the earth?

I'm still not completely sure of what you're asking. Are you asking whether the man of sin has been revealed yet or not as of today? If so, please go back and read my explanation of my understanding of the man of sin if you haven't already.
It was a very straight forward question.

From your perspective it was, sure. But, my perspective is much different than yours in case you haven't noticed.

Let's look together.

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

I ask, is he revealed in this verse? As you can see, Paul wrote "IS revealed." (Not in reality but in Paul's argument.) This is proven (that he is revealed) by what Paul wrote next:

4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s temple, proclaiming that he himself is God.

Paul is not saying that the man of sin has been revealed at that point. All he is saying at that point is that the day when the Lord comes and we're gathered to Him cannot come until both the apostasy AND the man of sin are revealed first.

Your answer could have been, "yes, Paul wrote in verse 3b that the man of sin "is revealed."

What is your point here, though? He is speaking of the timing of the revealing of the man of sin in relation to the second coming of Christ. Based on what he said there, it can't happen before the rapture, yet you believe it happens after the rapture, don't you?

You and I both know that He cannot be revealed until the one restraining him - PREVENTING him from being revealed before his time (God knows what time this will be) is "taken out of the way."

I submit to you that in Paul's argument, that "taking out of the way" of the restraining power is written in verse 3a, but written in a cloaked way...so Paul wrote, "and now you know what is restraining" so readers would go back and see WHERE Paul revealed who or what this restraining power is.

Take your pick: you have 19 words or any combination of words counting backwards from the word first. Somewhere in those words Paul has hidden or concealed the restraining force taken out of the way.

With that logic it can't be the church since the church is not mentioned in the previous verses. And neither is the Holy Spirit. So, you are mistaken.

Also, you are missing something here. Look at what he said just prior to saying "and now you know what is restraining".

2 Thess 2:5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

Paul indicated that he had talked to them about all these things before writing 2nd Thessalonians. So, I believe he had told them before what was holding "the man of sin" back. I don't believe it has to be assumed that he told them that in the 2 Thess 2 verses prior to that one.

I believe they are referring to a departing from the faith just like all the rest of the translations indicate.

But they are adding to scripture for Paul gives NO INDICATION as to what is being departed FROM. That is, unless you understand the rapture is the restraining force "taken out of the way." Then we know what the departing is all about. You are stuck with a serious problem: HOW did Paul get the man of sin revealed in verse 3b? Something had to be "taken out of the way" in the first half of that verse.

I have no serious problem because I don't accept your understanding of the passage. The only thing verse 3b is saying about timing in relation to the second coming of Christ is that the man of sin being revealed can't happen after the rapture and the falling away from the faith happens first.

Can you see how neither one of us can claim that we're creating a serious problem for the other? It's pointless for either of us to think we've done that because our understanding of the apostasia and of the man of sin is completely different.

there are no translations that translate it as a departure from the earth

There is simply no information in that word "apostasia" that tells us what the departing is from. So it does not FORBID a departure from the earth. Again I must remind you, what is Paul's THEME? It is the departure!

He has multiple themes in the passage. The second coming of Christ itself is one theme, the timing of certain events in relation to His coming (a falling away from the faith and the man of sin being revealed) is another theme, and another theme relates to the fact that people who rebel against Christ will be destroyed and condemned.

if you're asking me if I know of the identity of an individual Antichrist

I only ask if the man of sin was revealed in 3b. Sorry, I did not think it could be taken any other way. I thought it was a simple question. Paul is making an argument to the Thessalonians about their mistaken idea the "the DAY" and already come and they were in it. It was only an argument or teaching moment: not reality. In the real world, when someone sees the very significant departing (the rapture will be HUGE - no one will miss it) and then sees this man enter the most holy place in the Jewish temple and declare he (a man) is God, then all will know the DAY has started and they are IN IT. That is this passage in a nutshell. He is telling them they are NOT in the Day of the Lord. Why did Paul write it as he did? We will have to ask Him and Our Lord about that. It is what it is and that is what we have to work with.

Can you understand that it was a simple question only if I understood the man of sin and the falling away the same way as you, which I don't? It wasn't a simple question at all because our understanding of the passage is very different. So, to understand your question requires me to understand your viewpoint, which is not easy because it's very different from mine.

Remember, what Paul is talking about relates to a time just before "the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him".

And here is where we differ, You are relating or comparing "the Day of the Lord" with the rapture, perhaps thinking that the rapture will be the first event in the Day of the Lord. Many people think this and write something silly like "the rapture must come first before the rapture."

I believe 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 shows the rapture of believers and destruction of unbelievers occurs on the same day. What other "gathering to Him" is there that Paul ever talked about besides the rapture?

If we go back and read EVERY verse in the OT about the Day of the Lord, we see that it is a DARK DAY of destruction and wrath. Sorry, but the rapture does not fit.

It isn't just that. It's only a dark day for unbelievers.

If we study Paul in 1 Thes. 5, we discover Jesus coming will trigger the RAPTURE and the rapture will trigger THE DAY. So the rapture is over before the Day starts. It is associated with "the day" but is not a part of "the Day." In fact, here Paul tells us the departing or rapture must come first, before the revealing, because the rapture is the restrainer being "taken out of the way."

I just disagree with your understanding. I don't see any indication whatsoever within 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 that there is a long time period between the rapture and the destruction of unbelievers.

How do you interpret his passage:

2 Thess 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

I assume you would say this is referring to what you believe is the second time Jesus descends from heaven (with the rapture being the first time) and that you believe this happens 7 years after the rapture. But notice verse 10. It indicates that the same 24 hour day Jesus comes to take vengeance on and punish His enemies is also the day that He comes to be glorified in His holy people.

To me, that is a clear reference to the rapture. Don't you think a description of Him being glorified in His people is a description of what will happen when the rapture occurs?

That is a reference to the rapture, which you somehow deny. Yes, I deny that the day of the Lord is a reference to the rapture. The Day of the Lord is a dark day of wrath, and we will be OUT OF HERE before wrath. We have Paul's guarantee. (The apostasia is a reference to the rapture! )

See my response above regarding how 2 Thess 1:7-10 shows the rapture and the wrath occur on the same 24 hour day.

I think we will always disagree on this passage until we arrive.

You're right about that, but I want to make something clear. While I disagree with you on almost everything in that passage, I do respect that you don't shy away from responding to the challenges I give you. I don't agree with your conclusions, but at least you don't expect me to answer your questions while not answering mine. I respect that.

 

[iamlamad]

How can you deny that they were waiting in Abraham's bosom until the moment the Atonement was made on the Cross. That is when those in "captivity" were set "free". Satan desired Moses' body in this captivity but was denied. Moses and Elijah came from and returned to Paradise before the Cross. You are claiming the OT is still in Abraham's bosom and deny their physical resurrection when Jesus freed them from sheol. Are you claiming that Moses and Elijah did not have an incorruptible body on the mount of transfiguration? Or just Elijah. What was Moses seen in then?

Why is "they" waiting in Abraham's bosom? They were OT saints! They COULD NOT be NT saints for at that time no believer in Christ had died.
That is when those in "captivity" were set "free". Still wrong. They were freed after Jesus defeated death and rose from the dead.

Satan desired Moses' body in this captivity but was denied. So you are admitting they were OT saints. Why then did you add the NT saints? That is error. NO New Covenant saint ever spent time in Abraham's Bosom. (Note, the New Covenant did not really start until Jesus rose from the dead.)

Moses and Elijah came from and returned to Paradise before the Cross. OR it was only a vision and they were not really there.

You are claiming the OT is still in Abraham's bosom and deny their physical resurrection when Jesus freed them from sheol. They did not get freed until Jesus rose from the dead. Don't jump the gun and say it was at the cross. Only DEATH was at the cross. You want to say ALL of the OT saints were resurrected, when the text says "many." the rest were certainly taken to heaven but not with resurrection bodies. There are billions in heaven today in SPIRIT form, not resurrection body because the day of resurrection has not come.

Are you claiming that Moses and Elijah did not have an incorruptible body on the mount of transfiguration? They may well have been part of that "many" that DID received resurrection bodies when Christ arose.

I have told this before, but I will tell it again: we have a testimony of someone who went to heaven but came back to his body. He noticed that Abraham looked different than many other saints, and asked him. Abraham replied:


"A very few of us have already had our resurrection as you see in my own case."

"I have been waiting for some time to ask," I replied, "what made the great difference between your appearance and those other happy spirits and even my own?"

"All the elders," said he, "received their resurrection at the time our Lord was raised and with Him became the first fruits of those who slept..."

That is why the text tells us "many" and not "all" were resurrected when Jesus was.

 

[iamlamad]

Did you mean some other translation than the KJV?

2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The KJV translates it as "a falling away" not "a departing". How can the phrase "falling away" describe people being caught up from the earth? In other words, how can you fall away from the earth?

I am amazed at you at times, and this is one of those times. Paul did not write the words: "falling away." It seems he wrote the word, "apostasia." That word is in all the Greek texts. As I have shown you, many people translated that as a "departing" before the KJV translated it as a 'falling away." One cannot fall away from earth, but one can certainly DEPART from earth at the rapture, as the church - and the Holy Spirit in the church - is being "taken out of the way."

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Those who come with Jesus are the whole body of the church, OT and NT who have taken on the incorruptible body. There is no bodily resurrection. They are in Paradise and gathered by the angels, which is figurative of a personal role call.

Here is another one of your nonsensical private interpretations.

If the whole body of the church are the ones who are coming with Jesus in 1 Thess 4:14 then who is He coming for that are caught up to meet Him as described in 1 Thess 4:16-17? It says He is coming to meet the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain. Who are they? If Jesus is already coming with "the whole body of the church" then who does that leave to resurrected from the dead and who does it leave who is still on the earth for Him bring up to Him from the earth to meet Him in the air?

You said there is no bodily resurrection. That is heresy. You are denying a fundamental belief of Christianity. I believe your posts need to be deleted and you need to not be allowed to post here anymore if you're going to keep saying things like that. Do you not even believe Jesus was resurrected bodily from the dead?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I am amazed at you at times

The feeling is mutual, believe me.

and this is one of those times. Paul did not write the words: "falling away." It seems he wrote the word, "apostasia." That word is in all the Greek texts.

I fully understand that and have not said otherwise.

As I have shown you, many people translated that as a "departing" before the KJV translated it as a 'falling away."

And many translated it as a falling away. This proves nothing. Calling it "a departing" is obviously not specific enough to know for sure what it means without looking at the passage as a whole.

One cannot fall away from earth, but one can certainly DEPART from earth at the rapture, as the church - and the Holy Spirit in the church - is being "taken out of the way."

Again, while some translations have it as "a departing", no translators translated it as a departing from the earth and many translators translated it as a falling away or rebellion. You are amazed that I take the side of the majority of translators? That is amazing to me.

But, let me make myself clear. I believe my interpretation of it referring to a falling away from the faith rather than a departing from earth fits the passage overall and that's why I interpret it the way I do (not because of blindly following what any certain translation says). A falling away from the faith fits very well with what is said in verses 9-12. Why would God send strong delusion to the wicked if not for a mass falling away/rebellion against Him?

 

[iamlamad]

Paul is not saying that the man of sin has been revealed at that point. All he is saying at that point is that the day when the Lord comes and we're gathered to Him cannot come until both the apostasy AND the man of sin are revealed first.

Oh, really? Let's look again: I am sure that is what Paul wrote: Here it is in many English translations: I highlighed the "is revealed" so you can easily see it.

AMP Let no one in any way deceive or entrap you, for that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first [that is, the great rebellion, the abandonment of the faith by professed Christians], and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction [the Antichrist, the one who is destined to be destroyed],

AMPC Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),

CSB Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

CEB Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. That day won’t come unless the rebellion comes first and the person who is lawless is revealed, who is headed for destruction.

DLNT Let no one deceive you in any way, because it will not be present unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed— the son of destruction,

EHV Let no one deceive you in any way, because that day will not come until the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed—the son of destruction.

ESV Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

ESVUK Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

GW Don’t let anyone deceive you about this in any way. That day cannot come unless a revolt takes place first, and the man of sin, the man of destruction, is revealed.

HCSB Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

ICB Do not let any person fool you in any way. That day of the Lord will not come until the turning away from God happens. And that day will not come until the Man of Evil appears. He belongs to hell.

ISV Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the rebellion takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed.

LEB Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

MEV Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For that Day will not come unless a falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

MOUNCE Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

NOG Don’t let anyone deceive you about this in any way. That day cannot come unless a revolt takes place first, and the man of sin, the man of destruction, is revealed.

NABRE Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one doomed to perdition,

NASB No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

NET Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

NIV Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

NIVUK Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

NKJV Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

NLT Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction.

NRSV Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction.

NRSVA Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction.

NRSVACE Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction.

NRSVCE Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction.

NTE Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. You see, it can’t happen unless first the rebellion takes place, and the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction, is revealed.

RGT Let no one deceive you in any way. For that Day shall not come unless an apostasy comes first and the man of sin is revealed - the Son of Perdition –

RSV Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition,

RSVCE Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition,

TLV Let no one deceive you in any way, for the Day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the one destined to be destroyed.

WEB Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

Paul's intent is clear: three times in this passage he said when the restrainer is removed, then the man of sin is or will be revealed. In verse 3, he wrote as if it had already happened, the restrainer already taken out of the way, and the man of sin already revealed (IS revealed as the above verses show us) - and Paul then shows what He will do and HOW he will be revealed.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

We are bodily raised in Christ. Do you think in Christ means "not in Christ"? Or are we just half way in Christ, and the rest of us will catch up some day? I am totally in Christ 100%. It is foolish human teaching that you are only in Christ 50%. Someday the last 50% of you will be in Christ. You claim a new covenant yet leave 50% of you in the old covenant???

There is a resurrection of the dead. The OT dead in sheol, in Abraham's bosom. Are those in Christ still in sheol in Abraham's bosom??? NO!!! The resurrection of Christ was the one and only physical resurrection of those in Christ. Both the OT and NT are now in Christ in Incorruptible bodies in Paradise.

What about Paul saying that the bodily resurrection and glorifying of our bodies doesn't occur until the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54)? He gave no indication that it had occurred yet when he wrote 1 Corinthians, so when did or when will the seventh trumpet sound to signal the time of the resurrection of the dead and changing of our bodies?

To say that it happens for each person upon death completely contradicts what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[iamlamad]

Your answer could have been, "yes, Paul wrote in verse 3b that the man of sin "is revealed."

What is your point here, though? He is speaking of the timing of the revealing of the man of sin in relation to the second coming of Christ. Based on what he said there, it can't happen before the rapture, yet you believe it happens after the rapture, don't you?

With that logic it can't be the church since the church is not mentioned in the previous verses. And neither is the Holy Spirit. So, you are mistaken.

He is speaking of the timing of the revealing of the man of sin in relation to the second coming of Christ.
Agreed, but also in relation to the Day of the Lord. What must come first? The (significant) apostasia or departing. (From what Paul does not tell us in this word.) And that makes perfect sense when we understand it is the restrainer that is holding back the revealing until the proper time, being taken out of the way FIRST, so then the man of sin can be revealed at the proper time.

This is basic: the revealing CANNOT happen until the power restraining that revealing first be taken out of the way. Since he IS REVEALED in 3b, then the restrainer MUST BE taken out of the way first - so in 3a.

Based on what he said there, it can't happen before the rapture, yet you believe it happens after the rapture, don't you? No matter how you slice it, since in Paul's argument the man of sin "is revealed" in 3b, the restraining power holding back that revealing must be "taken out of the way in 3a. Since we both agree the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, that makes it very simple: the apostasia or departing is the departing of the church, in which the Holy Spirit resides. When the church departs, the Holy Spirit risiding inside each believer departs with them.
So FIRST the departing, then the man of sin is revealed. See how simple this is?

With that logic it can't be the church since the church is not mentioned in the previous verses. And neither is the Holy Spirit. So, you are mistaken. We have both agreed that the Holy Spirit is that restraining power. And He resides IN the church.

 

[iamlamad]

What about Paul saying that the bodily resurrection and glorifying of our bodies doesn't occur until the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54)? He gave no indication that it had occurred yet when he wrote 1 Corinthians, so when did or when will the seventh trumpet sound to signal the time of the resurrection of the dead and changing of our bodies?

To say that it happens for each person upon death completely contradicts what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15.

Agreed.

 

[iamlamad]

The feeling is mutual, believe me.

I fully understand that and have not said otherwise.

And many translated it as a falling away. This proves nothing. Calling it "a departing" is obviously not specific enough to know for sure what it means without looking at the passage as a whole.

Again, while some translations have it as "a departing", no translators translated it as a departing from the earth and many translators translated it as a falling away or rebellion. You are amazed that I take the side of the majority of translators? That is amazing to me.

But, let me make myself clear. I believe my interpretation of it referring to a falling away from the faith rather than a departing from earth fits the passage overall and that's why I interpret it the way I do (not because of blindly following what any certain translation says). A falling away from the faith fits very well with what is said in verses 9-12. Why would God send strong delusion to the wicked if not for a mass falling away/rebellion against Him?

No matter how you slice it, a falling away then MUST fit verses 4-8 also. And since in Paul's argument in 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED, then your falling away must be the Holy Spirit being taken out of the way so that he COULD BE revealed. Is that what you are saying?

 

[iamlamad]

Also, you are missing something here. Look at what he said just prior to saying "and now you know what is restraining".

2 Thess 2:5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

Paul indicated that he had talked to them about all these things before that. So, I believe he had told them before what was holding "the man of sin" back. I don't believe it has to be assumed that he told them that in the 2 Thess 2 verses prior to that one.

Writing "and now you know," about something he told them in person previously seems clumsy and not at all like Paul." He could have just said, "I told you all this before," and left off the "and now you know." The fact it, he DID just tell us who the restrainer is, but did it in a way one must study to see it.

It is very simple: the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the restrainer holding back that revealing is taken out of the way.
Since in 3b he IS revealed, then in 3a the restrainer must have been "taken out of the way." The restrainer is the Holy spirit, so in 3a the Holy Spirit must be taken out of the way. If by apostasia we see the departing of the church in line with Paul's theme, then it is easy to see how the Holy Spirit is "taken" out of the way: He resides inside of each believer. When the believer had departed, then the Holy Spirit residing in that believe will have been "taken out of the way" when the church is "taken out of the way. I see very well why Paul wrote, "and now you know." He just told us.

 

[iamlamad]

HOW did Paul get the man of sin revealed in verse 3b? Something had to be "taken out of the way" in the first half of that verse.

I have no serious problem because I don't accept your understanding of the passage. The only thing verse 3b is saying about timing in relation to the second coming of Christ is that the man of sin being revealed can't happen after the rapture and the falling away from the faith happens first.

Can you see how neither one of us can claim that we're creating a serious problem for the other? It's pointless for either of us to think we've done that because our understanding of the apostasia and of the man of sin is completely different.

Is it possible to have a serious problem and just not know it? I think it is. Your answer was that Paul really didn't get the man of sin revealed. Yet I showed many English translations that disagree with that.

Why do you equate "the second coming of Christ" with "The day of the Lord." Can you find a verse that makes these terms synonymous? In 1 Thes. 4 I see a coming and I see Paul tell us 3 verses later about the Day of the Lord. I understand that the rapture will be the trigger (so to speak) for the start of the Day of the Lord. But this is not making the terms synonymous. One comes before the other. Ah! Perhaps it is the "sudden destruction" that comes with the rapture? What do you make of that sudden destruction? Perhaps you think they all happen at the same time with Christ's coming to Armageddon?

The only thing verse 3b is saying about timing in relation to the second coming of Christ...
3b only tells us that the man of sin is revealed (not in reality but in Paul's argument.)

The entire verses tells us that the day of the Lord (that dark day of destruction) cannot come until there is a significant departing first and then the man of sin is revealed.

And this is the exact timing I see in Revelation: the rapture or departing just before the Day, or a moment before the 6th seal, then the Day begins, and then the man of sin will be revealed. So at the time of the revealing, the DAY is certainly present.

the man of sin being revealed can't happen after the rapture and the falling away from the faith happens first.
Since the man of sin cannot be revealed until the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way (It sounds strange to say the second person of the Godhead is "taken" anywhere) - and His really is taken out of the way as the CHURCH is taken out of the way - because He resides in each believer, then it makes sense that the departing (of the church) must come before the revealing.

Do you really believe there is going to be a very significant falling away from the faith? Worldwide the church is GROWING, not falling away. I believe it will continue in that direction. Sure, some fall away, but two come in when one falls away. I think the KJV did a terrible job of translating there. There is a huge difference in "some shall depart" and a very significant departing.

This brings up a question: how in the world would anyone trying to follow Paul's "formula" know when enough had fallen away to say: "Ah! This is what Paul was talking about!" It would seem it would have to be sudden and much of the church at the same time. On the other hand, no one will have to guess if the rapture came.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus story of the rich man and Lazarus would tell a different story.

Just imagine someone dies, and they are escorted to heaven. Immediately then see millions of souls lying around, not moving, so many even the streets of gold are impassible. Jesus comes to greet this someone, and he or she asks: Jesus, why are all these people just laying here, not moving? Jesus answers, "they are in soul sleep!"

Sorry, I don't buy it!

What part of they are NOT dead NOR sleeping did my post fail to convey?

Soul sleep is false doctrine. Laying dead in the grave and bodily resurrection is false doctrine. Both these human teachings reject the physical resurrection of all in Christ when Christ physically raised from the Dead. That was 1990 years ago and was the physical Resurrection for all in Christ, both OT and NT believers.