Use of the aorist

[TibiasDad]

Here's the thing, Doug. If God does reverse anything, His Word would make that very clear.

Since there are NO verses about God undoing ANY of the things that accompany salvation, why should you assume or presume that He will?

Rev 22:18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

This would be a reversal of things. This is scripture! You're proven wrong!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Yep, and only believers (present tense) receive eternal life, and concerning those who practice acts of the flesh, Galatians 5:19-21 says, "sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Why would Paul warn believers of something that could never happen?

Or 1 Cor 6:9Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men a 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

What kind of teaching might have been deceiving the Corinthians that "wrongdoers" would still inherit the kingdom of God? Paul is not talking about rewards for service!

Or Paul's words to the Ephesians, "5:1Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children 2and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. 3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.

The wrath of God comes "on those who are disobedient"!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Good posts Doug and @GDL,

I think there is a very simple solution here that is not being considered by our friends, and that is when the scripture applications to "believe" or believing to the PIA as in the case of JOHN 3:16 for example having application to the "now" or present tense, to believing, the "now" (present tense) is a continuous state that does not end. Of course the use of the PIA has to be considered within the scripture contexts, subject matter and application for example Luke 8:11 "for a while".

Saving faith however as in John 3:16 is a continuous state of present tense "now" and the now does not end according to the scriptures. Therefore because now is an unending continuous state so must be faith, belief or believing to which it is applied.

It is sad our friend can not see this. There is not one scripture in all of the bible that says we can believe once and stop believing and receive Gods' salvation. This teaching is not biblical. It seems some are looking at a leaf in a tree, but cannot see the branch and tree the leaf is attached to or the forest to which the leaf belongs.

It is God's Word that tells us directly that unbelievers and those who depart the faith (stop believing) are not in a saved state with God and so comes crashing down the thinking of once saved always saved. Only God is true as the scriptures teach *Romans 3:4. There is no such thing as once saved always saved. We stop believing in the present tense we are not in a saved state with God according to the scriptures *Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39.

God bless.

Thank you for the kind words, LGW, I appreciate it greatly.

I'm not sure that I would make the argument from the word "now", because the only eternal "now", is that of an eternal being, not the temporal " now" of earthly life. "Now" can be but a fleeting moment, or just today, but that which we do in the succession of "nows" is always a "present" experience and being something presently is just a step away from being that something eternally.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

<sigh> It appears that you are not familiar with the Bible. The Bible tells believers to stop sinning, yet you indicate that sin proves that the person isn't saved.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here...what do you mean by I said "that sin proves that the person isn't saved." Where did I ever say that? I've said that anyone who practices a lifestyle of sin, regardless of whether they have expressed belief in Christ or not, will not inherit the kingdom of God/go to heaven/have life eternal.
I've said that anyone who does sin and repents and does not continue to commit those sins will hear "well done" on judgement day. I have said that if we are real believers, that "we must walk as Jesus walked" but if we hate our brother that "the truth is not in us". But I've never said that "sin proves a person isn't saved"! A continual and unrepentant life of sin is a sign that the person most likely isn't saved, and proves that they are in serious spiritual trouble and in danger of being cut out of the olive tree and burned. But there is a huge difference between those two statements!

Doug

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Thank you for the kind words, LGW, I appreciate it greatly. I'm not sure that I would make the argument from the word "now", because the only eternal "now", is that of an eternal being, not the temporal " now" of earthly life. "Now" can be but a fleeting moment, or just today, but that which we do in the succession of "nows" is always a "present" experience and being something presently is just a step away from being that something eternally.

Doug

Hello Doug, Only telling the truth as I see it. No need for thanks. I appreciate your view. Not sure if I understand your post above. For me the application was to saving faith and to believe or believing being always in the present tense application to "now", but within scripture context dependent. This is demonstrated in John 3:16 in the case of those who have eternal life are "believing" PIA. At any given point of time a "believer" only has "now". We only have "now" and that is what believe or believing is applied to which is ongoing or continuous. If belief or believing is linked to present tense active (now) then saving faith, belief or believing is continuous. Application to saving faith is always to believing unless stated otherwise in the scripture context. There is no scripture that states once saved always saved. To me this is not a hard subject.

God bless

 

[TibiasDad]

Hello Doug, Only telling the truth as I see it. No need for thanks. I appreciate your view. Not sure if I understand your post above. For me the application was to saving faith and to believe or believing being always in the present tense application to "now", but within scripture context dependent. This is demonstrated in John 3:16 in the case of those who have eternal life are "believing" PIA. At any given point of time a "believer" only has "now". We only have "now" and that is what believe or believing is applied to which is ongoing or continuous. If belief or believing is linked to present tense active (now) then saving faith, belief or believing is continuous. Application to saving faith is always to believing unless stated otherwise in the scripture context. There is no scripture that states once saved always saved. To me this is not a hard subject.

God bless

No problem, my friend, I suspect that we are probably saying the same thing in the long run, I just tend to be picky, or perhaps persnickety, in my choice of wording so I ask for patience with such idiosyncrasies that plague me.

Doug

 

[Gr8Grace]

The perfect tense means that the results an action that was done in the past still are in effect at the time of writing.

You may want to try again.
The perfect tense means that the results of an action that was COMPLETED in the past are still in effect at the time of READING it. And His word Will NEVER pass away. So in 2000 years when, someone READS His word, It is still COMPLETED and still in effect.
Geesh, it's border line insanity watching obviously very intelligent people just WRECK His word........All for a false teaching of tossing believers into the LoF?!?!

Perfect tense. A completed action that will last FOREVER That WILL continue......

New American Standard Bible
"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

It is not a once for all action, and no Greek tense extends any certainty of an indicative condition past the present tense.

Doug

More nonsense. And Take your definition for the present tense meaning ongoing or continuing for example......He gives us eternal life in the present tense(John 10:28). By your own definition of the present tense...............It is continual or ongoing. But I can't abuse the present tense like that to make a case for eternal security. The very definition of ETERNAL LIFE makes that solid case.

 

[TibiasDad]

You may want to try again.
The perfect tense means that the results of an action that was COMPLETED in the past are still in effect at the time of READING it. And His word Will NEVER pass away. So in 2000 years when, someone READS His word, It is still COMPLETED and still in effect.

I think that's what I stated! Last I knew, "done" means "completed".

Doug

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No problem, my friend, I suspect that we are probably saying the same thing in the long run, I just tend to be picky, or perhaps persnickety, in my choice of wording so I ask for patience with such idiosyncrasies that plague me.

Doug

Yep choice of words sometimes is not my best thing late at night .
Thanks Doug.

 

[TibiasDad]

Geesh, it's border line insanity watching obviously very intelligent people just WRECK His word........All for a false teaching of tossing believers into the LoF?!?!

Perfect tense. A completed action that will last FOREVER That WILL continue......

The perfect tense does not and cannot speak to any thing past the present tense. No Greek tense extends certainty beyond the present tense. Yes, the work of God and word of God lasts forever, but not because or on the basis of the perfect tense. The perfect tense does not mean that a completed action will necessarily last forever. If the perfect tense was used to say "Billy died" it would be correct to say his death was completed and he is still dead, but not to say that Billy is necessarily always going to be dead! Indeed, Billy will one day be resurrected and will no longer be dead!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

More nonsense. And Take your definition for the present tense meaning ongoing or continuing for example......He gives us eternal life in the present tense(John 10:28). By your own definition of the present tense...............It is continual or ongoing. But I can't abuse the present tense like that to make a case for eternal security. The very definition of ETERNAL LIFE makes that solid case.

The present tense action is moving forward, but that does not mean or say that it will cretainly still be tomorrow! The imperfect present tense, just like the imperfect past tense is simply stating an on going action without comment on completion or continuance in the future.

He gives us the promise of eternal life! He gives the promise of such to all who are victorious and overcome, enduring to the end!

Doug

 

[bcbsr]

There is also no implication that it doesn't continue. But since the beginning of belief is necessarily a dynamic function, its continuation is a logical assumption and does no damage to the aorist, which takes no stance whatsoever as to any future condition of action. The aorist allows for all possibilities. The necessities of continuance are quite evident in scripture and the results of refusal to continue are equally evident. And so the aorist allows for all possibilities and one is just as likely as the other, but the rest of scripture leaves no doubt as to the necessity of continuance for salvation to be realized.

Doug

So the implications is that a person is saved upon coming to faith in Christ, regardless of whether or not that person continues to believe, which is the free grace position as I understand it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No dear friend. Condemnation the scriptures state is to those who do not believe period, always in the present tense.

I recommend that you, dear friend, parse John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12. The English wording is "have not believed".

In John 3:18 it is a "perfect indicative active" in the negative. iow, they NEVER believed.

In 2 Thess 2:12 it is an "aorist participle active" also in the negative. iow, they NEVER believed.

The English translation translates the message very well.

You claim it is those who "do not believe" period. As if you have the last word. Well, you can remove your "period" because the Greek REFUTES your 'last word'.

Condemnation is for those who "have not believed". Which means they NEVER believed.

And that is the point. It's NOT about this "continual believing" for salvation theory. It's about whether one HAS EVER BELIEVED. If not, they will be condemned.

If someone believed yesterday and does not believe today they are an "unbeliever" in the present tense "now".

So what? Proves nothing. The Bible NEVER describes or refers to such a person as an "unbeliever". The biblical word is apostate. Look it up in your dictionary. It means someone who no longer believes what they once did believe.

What you still haven't proven is that salvation can be lost. All you've got is assumption and presumption.

All I am hearing in your posts is denial of the scriptures shared with you.

To be clear, the denial is of YOUR claim of what the Scriptures say and teach.

What you do with the scriptures shared with you is between you and God.

They sure are! And I daily ask for guidance into the truth. I ask the Holy Spirit to illuminate the truth every time I read His word, which is also daily.

Maybe you don't realize, but no one wants to be wrong. Neither you nor I do. But one of us is definitely wrong, because our views are diametrically opposed. You may want to start praying.

[QUOET] You should be aware though and this is very telling, that you have not provided a single scripture that says we can believe yesterday and not believe today and receive eternal life.[/QUOTE]
This is evidence that you don't read my posts. I already responded. I said I don't have or need to because Jesus covered the issue clearly. He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

And, to use your own failed technique of requiring specific wording to support my view, I'll turn it right back on you. You have not provided a single Scripture that says we can lose salvation.

So, there you go.

Yet it is God's Word that explicitly states those who depart the faith (stop believing and following God's Word) are not in a saved state with God and do not receive eternal life.

OK, then. I'll bite. Please quote the single most clear verse that supports your claim. But this time, don't punt and merely claim that I've been given many such verses.

I'm asking you specifically for the single best and most clear verse that says what you claim. Since you "claim" there are many such verses, picking out the single best one shouldn't be too difficult.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Here's the thing, Doug. If God does reverse anything, His Word would make that very clear.

Since there are NO verses about God undoing ANY of the things that accompany salvation, why should you assume or presume that He will?"

Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

This would be a reversal of things.

Uh, no, it would not, Doug. The verse describes God's discipline to those who either add to or subtract from what has been written. That's not a reversal, in any sense.

Reading skills, Doug, reading skills.

This is scripture! You're proven wrong!

Yes, it is. And I just proved YOU wrong.

It's all about reading skills.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Recipients of eternal life shall never perish."

Yep, and only believers (present tense) receive eternal life

You're already been refuted. So why do you keep repeating such false information. Those who believe possess eternal life. And Jesus said recipients of eternal life, which is WHEN they believe in the present tense, shall never perish.

But it seems you aren't able to process that information.

and concerning those who practice acts of the flesh, Galatians 5:19-21 says, "sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Why would Paul warn believers of something that could never happen?

Of course it could happen. And will happen. But you just don't understand about God's discipline and loss of reward. To "inherit the kingdom" is what we read about in 2 Tim 2:12 (reigning with Him) and Rom 8:17b (sharing in His glory). These are rewards for faithful believers (endure-2 Tim 2:12 and share in His suffering-Rom 8:17b).

Review 1 Cor 3:14,15 and you'll read about losing reward but still being saved.

Or 1 Cor 6:9Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men a 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Same parallel passage.

Or Paul's words to the Ephesians, "5:1Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children 2and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. 3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.

The 3rd of 3 parallel passages about inheriting the kingdom. Both 1 Cor 6 and Gal 5 say "shall not inherit the kingdom" while Eph 5 says "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

Since Paul mentions what won't be IN the kingdom, it should be clear that entrance into the kingdom isn't in view. iow, the believer will be there but there won't be any inheritance (eternal reward) for them IN the kingdom.

The wrath of God comes "on those who are disobedient"!

Doug

Amen!! Sure does!!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"The Bible tells believers to stop sinning, yet you indicate that sin proves that the person isn't saved."

I have no idea what you're trying to say here...what do you mean by I said "that sin proves that the person isn't saved." Where did I ever say that?

All of my comments and replies are tied directly to what the other poster said, and I include theire quote before I post my comment/reply. So go back and read what you posted. If you don't understand what you wrote, then I can't explain what I wrote. And it won't make any difference anyway.

I've said that anyone who practices a lifestyle of sin, regardless of whether they have expressed belief in Christ or not, will not inherit the kingdom of God/go to heaven/have life eternal.

The error here is to equate "inherit the kingdom" with "going to heaven" and "having eternal life". In all 3 passages re: not inheriting the kingdom, the key is lifestyle.

Are you not aware that lifestyle isn't the issue in salvation? Apparently not. Which is one of your major problems with understanding the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is no scripture that states once saved always saved.

Your rigid denial is just stunning!!

Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. If you can't figure out what Jesus meant by that, there's no amount of explanation that will help you.

To me this is not a hard subject.
God bless

Apparently it is. Because you are in denial. When Jesus explained the result of being given eternal life, He WAS teaching eternal security.

Now, since you so strongly disagree with what I post, please explain to me precisely WHEN a person is given the gift of eternal life. That should clear up any confusion between our views.

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think that's what I stated! Last I knew, "done" means "completed".

Doug

You also said this:
"
TibiasDad said: ↑
It is not a once for all action, and no Greek tense extends any certainty of an indicative condition past the present tense.

Doug"

And Gr8grace responded with:
"More nonsense. And Take your definition for the present tense meaning ongoing or continuing for example......He gives us eternal life in the present tense(John 10:28). By your own definition of the present tense...............It is continual or ongoing. But I can't abuse the present tense like that to make a case for eternal security. The very definition of ETERNAL LIFE makes that solid case."

How come you completely ignored all of that?

Other than having no defense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The perfect tense does not and cannot speak to any thing past the present tense. No Greek tense extends certainty beyond the present tense.

So then, you've never met the Greek future tense??

 

[GDL]

You may want to try again.
The perfect tense means that the results of an action that was COMPLETED in the past are still in effect at the time of READING it. And His word Will NEVER pass away. So in 2000 years when, someone READS His word, It is still COMPLETED and still in effect.
Geesh, it's border line insanity watching obviously very intelligent people just WRECK His word........All for a false teaching of tossing believers into the LoF?!?!

Perfect tense. A completed action that will last FOREVER That WILL continue......

I'm not singling you out right here, but just using your post to make a request: Will you all please cite your reference(s) for these claims about what a tense means? There are so many incorrect statements being made about these tenses and so many more meaningful arguments that could be made if everyone truly knew how to use these references to show the basis for their interpretations.

With that said, I am now responding to your post. I refer you to my post #83 to tell you that I disagree with your "FOREVER" interpretation of the Greek perfect tense & to refer you to my reference for doing so.

I also disagree with your statement re: "still in effect at the time of READING it." The same post will show from the reference I utilized that the tenses are normally speaking of time from the viewpoint of the speaker, not the READER. Frankly this READER viewpoint makes zero sense to me in most instances. There is a classification of tenses that provides for a timeless fact and no one here that I've seen has addressed this. I'd be interested in reading any reference material you can cite for your opinions.

Also, to be clear, and as I've also said elsewhere, Wallace (my cited reference) makes it clear that there are debates & viewpoints that differ even re: Greek grammar. So, in respect for such a learned reference, I'm open to read your reference if you can supply one.