Miracles

[cloudyday2]

So there, got hold of an adapter.

Abraham was born and raised in an idolworshipping enviroment, very much so.

As young, very young he decided to test the idols.

So he watched the sun all day and toward evening it sank down beyond the horizon.

So he asked the sun worshippers where their god has gone, the same with the moon worshippers.

They could not give him an answer, the same with other god ideas.

So, he Abraham stood up and told them they were all wrong.

There is but one God who does not go to bed in the evening, it is He who sustaines His Creation.

He is the giver, kind, merciful, having compassion on His Creation.


That was Abrahams message.

There is the story of Jacob wrestling with a heavenly being through the night who desperately wants to be free before sunrise. My intuition tells me that this was originally a story about Jacob stumbling onto the nighttime hiding place of the sun god. So Abraham's grandson answered his question for him

 

[Robban]

There is the story of Jacob wrestling with a heavenly being through the night who desperately wants to be free before sunrise. My intuition tells me that this was originally a story about Jacob stumbling onto the nighttime hiding place of the sun god. So Abraham's grandson answered his question for him

, "Objection my lord! the defendent is making it up."

Haha, just kidding.

I go with, it was Esau's angel that Jakob fought with.

 

[Robban]

After leaving Laban with wives, sons, servants and livestock the whole works,

Jacob discovered he had forgot one thing, what it was is unclear,

but he returned to get it and he met (Esau's angel).

Jacob was anxious about meeting his brother Esau,

He decided he would greet him with a hug and a kiss,

second he would offer him gifts,
if it did not turn out so good he had prepared a troup to battle if need be.

It turned out well, Esau was first to greet him.

So, if there is a connection there, could be.

Going by memory, may need dusting off a little.

 

[cloudyday2]

After leaving Laban with wives, sons, servants and livestock the whole works,

Jacob discovered he had forgot one thing, what it was is unclear,

but he returned to get it and he met (Esau's angel).

Jacob was anxious about meeting his brother Esau,

He decided he would greet him with a hug and a kiss,

second he would offer him gifts,
if it did not turn out so good he had prepared a troup to battle if need be.

It turned out well, Esau was first to greet him.

So, if there is a connection there, could be.

Going by memory, may need dusting off a little.

What is the significance of Jacob's hip injury? Why not a shoulder injury or a back injury or broken tooth or something?

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

There is the story of Jacob wrestling with a heavenly being through the night who desperately wants to be free before sunrise. My intuition tells me that this was originally a story about Jacob stumbling onto the nighttime hiding place of the sun god. So Abraham's grandson answered his question for him

From comparative mythology, that would rather be a Cthonic fertility god. Jacob would embody the Organising principle wrestling with nature, thus the dark earth would be turned or 'ploughed' and unwilling to be exposed to the life-giving sun. It sounds like an agricultural myth in that sense. Jacob became Israel, which embodies the struggle of God, so it is a similar myth to Marduk cutting up the primordial world and bringing order from chaos. If anything, Jacob would embody the Sun, as why would the sun fear the coming of day, unless you assume it wouldn't unless he was released? The ancients generally saw the sun as being in a chariot or a boat, and there is no such in this myth.

The significance of the lame hip goes along with this. The disabled god is a common motief for bringing forth from the earth, like the lame Vulcan or Hephaestus, or for Order in the form of Law, like blind Odin or handless Tyr or even Marcus Scaevola. To bring order involves destroying, losing something of Nature in the process.

Placing it in context with Esau, this is the old order being replaced by the new, as the elder Esau is replaced by the younger Jacob - and renewal means loss of something too, as some tradition passes away. This hobbles progress, but results in a blessing in gaining from what came before. It is of accord with blind Isaac blessing his younger son, where again the agricultural Jacob replaces Esau the huntsman. Again a disabled lawgiver in a way (as is the stuttering Moses too, remember). This is an elaborate agricultural myth, probably looking at the watered lands of the Baalim being brought into cultivation.

Of course, there are many other layers of meaning as to Jew vs Gentile and about the Covenants that are far more fruitful by way of meaning, but that is a more involved discussion. YHWH likes to embody prophecy in physical action, like the shattered pot of Jeremiah. Jacob as Israel embodies the Covenant or Law of God. It is the hobbling of freedom in exchange for blessing.

 

[Robban]

[OTE="cloudyday2, post: 75131209, member: 311563"]What is the significance of Jacob's hip injury? Why not a shoulder injury or a back injury or broken tooth or something?[/QUOTE]

He went away from the place limping.

So painting the picture in the mind, maybe something to do with what Quid just posted.

 

[cloudyday2]

From comparative mythology, that would rather be a Cthonic fertility god. Jacob would embody the Organising principle wrestling with nature, thus the dark earth would be turned or 'ploughed' and unwilling to be exposed to the life-giving sun. It sounds like an agricultural myth in that sense. Jacob became Israel, which embodies the struggle of God, so it is a similar myth to Marduk cutting up the primordial world and bringing order from chaos. If anything, Jacob would embody the Sun, as why would the sun fear the coming of day, unless you assume it wouldn't unless he was released? The ancients generally saw the sun as being in a chariot or a boat, and there is no such in this myth.

The significance of the lame hip goes along with this. The disabled god is a common motief for bringing forth from the earth, like the lame Vulcan or Hephaestus, or for Order in the form of Law, like blind Odin or handless Tyr or even Marcus Scaevola. To bring order involves destroying, losing something of Nature in the process.

Placing it in context with Esau, this is the old order being replaced by the new, as the elder Esau is replaced by the younger Jacob - and renewal means loss of something too, as some tradition passes away. This hobbles progress, but results in a blessing in gaining from what came before. It is of accord with blind Isaac blessing his younger son, where again the agricultural Jacob replaces Esau the huntsman. Again a disabled lawgiver in a way (as is the stuttering Moses too, remember). This is an elaborate agricultural myth, probably looking at the watered lands of the Baalim being brought into cultivation.

Of course, there are many other layers of meaning as to Jew vs Gentile and about the Covenants that are far more fruitful by way of meaning, but that is a more involved discussion. YHWH likes to embody prophecy in physical action, like the shattered pot of Jeremiah. Jacob as Israel embodies the Covenant or Law of God. It is the hobbling of freedom in exchange for blessing.

For me the key features of the story are: the being's desperation to be freed by morning (sun-up) and Jacob's desire to know the being's name and the blessing given instead. The hip injury seems odd, because it allows the being to escape Jacob's grip. If the being had escaped then Jacob had no leverage to extort a blessing. The connection to the special treatment of the hip joint in sacrifices seems unnatural too. I suspect that the priestly rules about the hip joint was originally explained by some other myth, and this hip injury of Jacob's was invented to replace that other myth. Maybe the hip joint has the appearance of something that was sacred in some predecessor religion. Imagine if in the process of butchering sheep there was a certain joint that looked like a cross. Christian priests might treat that cut of meat specially in their sacrifices (if there were animal sacrifices in Christianity). So maybe there is some analogous symbol visible in the hip joint.

I like these types of stories in the Bible. They are fascinating and suggestive puzzle pieces even if the puzzle is incomplete.

 

[Robban]

What is the significance of Jacob's hip injury? Why not a shoulder injury or a back injury or broken tooth or something?

Why a hip injury?

He was probably injured in other ways too but according to some commentaries it was a telltale of the suffering and persecution of
Jewish people through the ages.

Every nation has a heavenly representative appointed by Göd to protect
them and argue their case in the heavenly tribunal, though mostly spiritual.

The guardian angel of Esau made a physical appearance and attacked Jakob.

The sunrays over the scene worked their healing balm on Jacob's
injury and restored him to full heaith.

Kosher butchers do not sell hindquarter cuts of meat.

Not eating the sciatic nerve which is connected to the hip bone and spreads throughout the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].

The prohibition is not a reaction to Jacob's injury but as a rememberance of the miraculous cure.

 

[Robban]

Came to think of something written somewhere,

"......then the morning sun will rise in your heart."

Bringing healing.

 

[Robban]

Something in style with Isaiah 58:8

 

[cloudyday2]

Came to think of something written somewhere,

"......then the morning sun will rise in your heart."

Bringing healing.

Sunshine and vitamin D supplements are suppose to help with COVID too.

 

[cloudyday2]

The guardian angel of Esau made a physical appearance and attacked Jakob.

Wouldn't it have made more sense for the guardian angel of Jacob to fight the guardian angel of Esau?

Maybe it was the ghost of Isaac or Abraham fighting Jacob? Jacob acquired the blessing of Isaac dishonestly. This was the blessing that God gave to Abraham and Abraham gave to Isaac and that Isaac should have given to Esau. So God, Abraham, and Isaac would all have a motive for challenging Jacob. And Jacob's ability to fight courageously may have EARNED for him the blessing that he had attempted to steal.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

For me the key features of the story are: the being's desperation to be freed by morning (sun-up) and Jacob's desire to know the being's name and the blessing given instead. The hip injury seems odd, because it allows the being to escape Jacob's grip. If the being had escaped then Jacob had no leverage to extort a blessing. The connection to the special treatment of the hip joint in sacrifices seems unnatural too. I suspect that the priestly rules about the hip joint was originally explained by some other myth, and this hip injury of Jacob's was invented to replace that other myth. Maybe the hip joint has the appearance of something that was sacred in some predecessor religion. Imagine if in the process of butchering sheep there was a certain joint that looked like a cross. Christian priests might treat that cut of meat specially in their sacrifices (if there were animal sacrifices in Christianity). So maybe there is some analogous symbol visible in the hip joint.

I like these types of stories in the Bible. They are fascinating and suggestive puzzle pieces even if the puzzle is incomplete.

If you look at the setting, Jacob sent his family across a river, and then fights with the figure. This is not a particular solar situation to my mind, even if it does take place at night. The river setting places emphasis on water or a river, which supports the agricultural setting I mentioned earlier, but this is also a liminal tale - crossing rivers is how one often reaches the underworld, and we are facing a dawn, so a rebirth. That narrative is reinforced by the name-change of Jacob as someone new, and the idea of names having power is a potent part of semitic culture. Knowing the name of a something gives you a modicum of control over it, or places you in a relation to it, as in the Book of the Dead's empasis on knowing the names of the underworld beings or Jesus asking the name of the devils in the Gadarene. A similar theophany is with the Burning Bush, where Moses asks what to call God.

This seems cthonic to me, a tale of control over life, with elements of rebirth and a liminal 'descent into the underworld' aspect, to see God - hence the place is named Penuel. This place name is connected to El, not a solar reference. Certainly though, rebirth can be connected to a solar narrative too, but I don't find the elements particularly strong except for the night-time setting, which is common in liminal or rebirth stories, like Beowulf or Cinderella.

Anyway, about the hip: The Greeks practiced a form of divination, where they examined the iliac crest of the pelvis or the scapula of a sacrifice. This was often cast into the fire, and the cracks that formed examined (the Chinese did something similar). I don't know if this has any Semitic presence, but the nearness of the Aegean-origined Philistines could potentially be a transit point for such a usage. Interestingly, this was mostly connected to Hephaestus, the lame god of Fire and also a cthonic deity.

I don't know, but I think this tale is trying to get much across in a very enigmatic way, hence its popularity in later traditions - though everyone struggles with interpretation. You see it illustrated in Children's Bibles even. I see an allegory of human nature struggling with the divine, and whatever archaic folktale it might be seen to encode, would be very obscured by it.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Wouldn't it have made more sense for the guardian angel of Jacob to fight the guardian angel of Esau?

Maybe it was the ghost of Isaac or Abraham fighting Jacob? Jacob acquired the blessing of Isaac dishonestly. This was the blessing that God gave to Abraham and Abraham gave to Isaac and that Isaac should have given to Esau. So God, Abraham, and Isaac would all have a motive for challenging Jacob. And Jacob's ability to fight courageously may have EARNED for him the blessing that he had attempted to steal.

This goes along with what I have said, as seeing your father in the underworld or a liminal setting is a common motief in mythology. This is again about the new order replacing the old, and in some sense continueing in embodying the father, like Osiris, Horus and Set.

Also, Jacob is a trickster figure, who is himself tricked, so a parallel could be drawn to Sumerian Enki too, a bringer of Civilisation and Order. This again has a connection to water, so a river setting is important, and is also a cthonic god of handicrafts. So Jacob and Esau could be understood as paralleling Gilgamesh and Enkidu, perhaps too. But again, this is just rank speculation and you must always be wary of parallelomania, to see connections where none necessarily exist.

 

[cloudyday2]

Anyway, about the hip: The Greeks practiced a form of divination, where they examined the iliac crest of the pelvis or the scapula of a sacrifice. This was often cast into the fire, and the cracks that formed examined (the Chinese did something similar). I don't know if this has any Semitic presence, but the nearness of the Aegean-origined Philistines could potentially be a transit point for such a usage. Interestingly, this was mostly connected to Hephaestus, the lame god of Fire and also a cthonic deity.

That sounds like it is probably the answer on the hip joint.

@Robban mentioned the sciatic nerve too. I suppose the reverence for the sciatic nerve derived from its connection to the iliac crest divination tradition. The sciatic nerve probably seemed to be a conduit for God's will

Coincidentally, I was watching an old History Channel documentary about Noah that mentioned a story about another hip injury. Apparently one of the lions on the ark was sick with a fever and Noah was late one morning bringing that lion his breakfast. The grumpy lion swatted Noah and severely injured his hip so that he limped for the rest of the voyage. I tried to find this story on the internet, but it doesn't seem to be there.

 

[Robban]

Wouldn't it have made more sense for the guardian angel of Jacob to fight the guardian angel of Esau?

Maybe it was the ghost of Isaac or Abraham fighting Jacob? Jacob acquired the blessing of Isaac dishonestly. This was the blessing that God gave to Abraham and Abraham gave to Isaac and that Isaac should have given to Esau. So God, Abraham, and Isaac would all have a motive for challenging Jacob. And Jacob's ability to fight courageously may have EARNED for him the blessing that he had attempted to steal.

Esau and Jacob were twins, Esau came out first,
so Jacob must have gone in first.

The first shall be the last and the last shall be the first.

 

[Robban]

Sunshine and vitamin D supplements are suppose to help with COVID too.

Vitamins and minerals are essential for well being and immune system.


Vitamin D I get by being in sunlight I take also vtamin C plus one
magnesium tablet per day, and sometimes zink.

But I don't want to overdo it, our bodies are fantastic they give out warning signals but are also good at fighting off invaders,

I just don't pamper with it.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

That sounds like it is probably the answer on the hip joint.

@Robban mentioned the sciatic nerve too. I suppose the reverence for the sciatic nerve derived from its connection to the iliac crest divination tradition. The sciatic nerve probably seemed to be a conduit for God's will

Coincidentally, I was watching an old History Channel documentary about Noah that mentioned a story about another hip injury. Apparently one of the lions on the ark was sick with a fever and Noah was late one morning bringing that lion his breakfast. The grumpy lion swatted Noah and severely injured his hip so that he limped for the rest of the voyage. I tried to find this story on the internet, but it doesn't seem to be there.

This rang a bell, and looking up the 'Chinese Noah' Yu, who also limped, I found a reference saying that there is a story about the lions maiming Noah in the Genesis Rabbah, so that he also limped. This is quite a late tradition though, and I haven't confirmed it myself.

 

[cloudyday2]

This rang a bell, and looking up the 'Chinese Noah' Yu, who also limped, I found a reference saying that there is a story about the lions maiming Noah in the Genesis Rabbah, so that he also limped. This is quite a late tradition though, and I haven't confirmed it myself.

Here is a link to an online Jewish Encyclopedia article on Noah that mentions the hip injury in less detail than the documentary. The story of Noah's injury definitely doesn't feel as ancient as the story of Jacob's injury.

One of the lions, having become enraged at Noah, attacked and injured him, so that he remained lame for the rest of his life.

Another interesting thing is the similarity of Noah's appearance to Jesus in the Book of Revelation that might suggest that the author of Revelation was familiar with this tradition of Noah's appearance:

Apocryphal legend represents Noah at his birth as having a body white like snow, hair white as wool, and eyes like sunbeams.

Another interesting thing is the possibility that the original Flood hero was Enoch rather than Noah:

Cheyne (in "Encyc. Bibl.") suggests that the original name of the Noah of the Flood was "Enoch" (

), and that afterward, the final ד having become effaced, the scribe transposed the two remaining letters.

NOAH - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Another interesting thing is the similarity of Noah's appearance to Jesus in the Book of Revelation that might suggest that the author of Revelation was familiar with this tradition of Noah's appearance:

I think both of these rather have to do with Moses' appearance when descending Sinai, and also plays a part in Daniel's depiction of the Son of Man, which is what Revelation references.

As an aside, the shining light of Moses' face was sometimes erroneously translated as 'horns', which is why Moses sometimes sports tiny horns in Renaissance and Mediaeval artwork.

Another interesting thing is the possibility that the original Flood hero was Enoch rather than Noah:

That sounds like a bit of a stretch. "If we leave this letter out and swop those around, and ignore the whole tradition of separate figures, then that was the original one". It is how whichever US president is in office, somehow gets to 666 and becomes the Antichrist, by hook or by crook.