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miknik5

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How does this make it better for your point? She said "He told me all that I ever did". Then the townspeople said they no longer believe because of what she said but because they met Jesus. Where can I meet Jesus in the flesh like these townspeople did? You are asking me to believe because you say so and then you reference a passage that clearly says these people believed because they met and heard from Jesus in the flesh.

I know this is what the bible says but why ask us to believe without evidence when he could provide the evidence?
Nope...you forgot the first part of what she said:

She said, Come, come and see a man who told me everything I did...could this be THE CHRIST?

Those who seek shall find...and as the gnostic gospels say...or, as the Savior said...the LIVING JESUS...continue to seek until you find...when you find, you will be amazed and will rule over all...
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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No you don't. I've had the same discussions with atheists for over 20 years. I don't need unspiritual, non-believers to try to tell me what God is or isn't when they self profess that they don't have any evidence of God's existence. I understand the passages and why and the how of what they mean and I don't pretend to assume that those who stand on their self-righteousness and moral haughty snobbery know the first thing about God and His actions.
If you think the bible is literally true then it does not take moral snobbery to know that:

‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Lev 20:13

Is immoral or that:

Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property. Exodus 21:20

is immoral or that:

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. Deut 22:28

is immoral or that:

But in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, you shall devote them to complete destruction, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the Lord your God has commanded, Deut 20:16-17.

is immoral.

I understand why you justify these verses. I did it myself for many years. But you don't have to believe these verses are gods word to be a christian. You can denounce these verses as immoral and still take the good from the bible as many Christians do. Why not? It is better than trying to reconcile these actions by god to be moral in some way. They are clearly not moral by almost everyone's standard of morality.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Nope...you forgot the first part of what she said:

She said, Come, come and see a man who told me everything I did...could this be THE CHRIST?

Those who seek shall find...and as the gnostic gospels say...or, as the Savior said...the LIVING JESUS...continue to seek until you find...when you find, you will be amazed and will rule over all...
Where can I go to see the Christ as these people could?
 
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miknik5

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Well, I asked you if you were closed-minded and you said no, but then you immediately said nothing could eve change your mind which is pretty much the defintion of being closed-minded, but let's just forget that for the moment...

I asked in post 1599 quite a few questions. You had a go at me for one of the first things I stated in that post, and I agreed with you and withdrew that comment. You never responded to ANY of the questions in post 1599, and now you are apparently claiming that those questions don't exist.

Please go back and check post 1599. You will find quite a few questions, please answer them. Here is a link: CLICK HERE.
Iḿ sorry...this is not a debate about anything regarding the topic of this thread. It´s actually a personal debate and I am not interested in getting involved in this. Sorry...

By the way, that post was not addressed to me...it was addressed to someone else. And wasn´t your questions answered?

If there are questions you want me to answer, please address your post to me and I will try to answer your questions. But, as I see it, the post to whom it was addressed, answered your questions....
 
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miknik5

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No, these people met Jesus in the flesh and talked to him for two days. Where can I go to do that?
Do you want me to answer that?

TODAY...is the DAY of salvation, sir...
 
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miknik5

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Yes.

Then god needs to reveal himself to me or provide the evidence he exists.
Then you need to seek HIM for HIM...and not through men,sir...whom you don´t believe anyway.

Those who seek shall find...those who ask it shall be given...those who knock THE DOOR shall be opened and HE will come in and eat with you..

And you will learn of HIM...from HIM


Just like the townspeople
 
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miknik5

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Then you too will say what the townspeople said to the woman at the well

¨we no longer believe by your word, but we have heard HIM for ourselves, and we believe that this is the CHRIST, the Savior of the world.¨
 
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Oncedeceived

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Could you answer my question with a yes or a no please.
No. I will not answer your question with a yes or a no. Its not a yes or no question.

Do you even understand why proteins and such do what they do? It's because of their shape. And their shape is an emergent property of their construction. If I told you to mark a point on a piece of paper, and then make a series of other marks that are all the same distance from that first mark, you're gonna get a circle. It's an emergent property of the process.
And a circle gets you no where. In fact, I'll give you an expert opinion on your very simplistic scenario:



Picture a gorilla (very long arms are needed) at an immense keyboard connected to a word processor. The keyboard contains not only the symbols used in English and European languages but also a huge excess drawn from every other known language and all of the symbol sets stored in a typical computer. The chances for the spontaneous assembly of a replicator in the pool I described above can be compared to those of the gorilla composing, in English, a coherent recipe for the preparation of chili con carne. With similar considerations in mind Gerald F. Joyce of the Scripps Research Institute and Leslie Orgel of the Salk Institute concluded that the spontaneous appearance of RNA chains on the lifeless Earth "would have been a near miracle." I would extend this conclusion to all of the proposed RNA substitutes that I mentioned above.

As I said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Something which we have no evidence for, but is perfectly consistent with known scientific principles is a lot LESS extraordinary than invoking a deity.
You see that is only due to your own presuppositional worldview that allows you to have no valid evidence for life coming from non-living matter and yet claim due to the natural world existing, it is a lot LESS extraordinary..that doesn't come from logic that comes from bias. Which is fine, we all have biases within our worldview, it just so happens that the Christian Worldview is more cohesive and coherent in terms with the reality of the universe.



I believe it stands alone because I have never seen any situation where it can be demonstrated that a naturalistic worldview alone can't explain something.
Yes you have. Life from non-living matter, information within the life form, how the universe came into being. Why the universe and earth both appear to be designed for life. How the laws of logic can exist in any universe, at any time and any where. Those are just a few that Science can't demonstrate in a naturalistic world view.

Yes, because the Laryngeal nerve is most efficient, the way it goes from the brain to the larynx by way of the aortic arch.
What would you do if you had to think for yourself and not depend on some atheist website to make your arguments for you?



I asked for sources about Jesus that come from the time of Jesus.

You said that the documents in the New Testament are such examples.

I am now asking you to provide evidence that the documents in the New Testament about Jesus actually came from the time of Jesus.
Scholar usually agree that the original documents (and there is evidence of original documents)were written earlier than those complied some mere decades later. The New Testament has more documentation and earlier than any other written antiquity.

I don't know how you found this unclear.
I didn't.



But in the far future, some person who believes in Arthur the Giant Poodle could say to an Arthur Denier, "Okay, show me some source from 2020 that says that Arthur doesn't exist!"

Now why on Earth would anyone alive today write about the non-existence of a character who hasn't even been invented yet?
Why would there be any mention of Arthur existing at all? Do you see the problem? We have people that are writing about a non-existing Man? Why would they?



Irrelevant. You claimed that Mara Bar-Serapion referenced several people and since we can show that some of those people were real, we should conclude that they were all real. I am pointing out that people can refer to real people and ficticious people all in the same sentence.
That is your choice.



Love this take on the, "If you knew what I knew, you'd know that I'm right."
This is about Christianity as a whole and it isn't an I'm right, it is Christian facts.



Yes, just giving me the person's name and not any actual paper they have written is enough to convince me!
Look at what you have given me, nothing supported by anything other than your opinion.

Care to actually provide a SOURCE in which he demonstrates what you claim he demonstrated? You're the one who has to support your claim, don't do a half way job of it. I'm not going to finish your homework for you. I'm not your mum.[/Quote]I gave you what you asked for.



Then don't judge.
That went over your head.



And what pagan figures would those be?
If you are curious, look it up.



Given the amount of actually verifiable evidence I've seen, I doubt his statement.
What would that verifiable evidence would that be?



Of course, if they didn't and merely drew upon pre-existing myths, then it's no surprise at all, is it?
Suit yourself.



And nothing.
 
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Oncedeceived

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If you think the bible is literally true then it does not take moral snobbery to know that:

‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Lev 20:13

Is immoral or that:

Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property. Exodus 21:20

is immoral or that:

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. Deut 22:28

is immoral or that:

But in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, you shall devote them to complete destruction, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the Lord your God has commanded, Deut 20:16-17.

is immoral.

I understand why you justify these verses. I did it myself for many years. But you don't have to believe these verses are gods word to be a christian. You can denounce these verses as immoral and still take the good from the bible as many Christians do. Why not? It is better than trying to reconcile these actions by god to be moral in some way. They are clearly not moral by almost everyone's standard of morality.
Take it up with God if you find He exists.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Just like the townspeople
Nope. You refuse to acknowledge that the townspeople got to talk to Jesus directly for two days in his physical form. That is not the same as you want me to interact with him.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Take it up with God if you find He exists.
Oh I would not do that, because I would have to go against my conscience and do what it takes so god would not send me to hell.

What god did and decreed in those verses can never be moral in any context. If they can be then god needs to explain that.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Oh I would not do that, because I would have to go against my conscience and do what it takes so god would not send me to hell.

What god did and decreed in those verses can never be moral in any context. If they can be then god needs to explain that.

Why can't they be moral in some one context? I'm not understanding .......... :dontcare:

... I'm also not understanding how your judgement here can be valid and made without having engaged a whole lot that's out there in Axiological Studies, especially when the onus is put on you to do so. No, it seems that all you do here, much of the time, is just %*#@! and complain!

I mean, face it! You're coming to us; we're not coming to stand on your doorstep and knock. No, it's you doing that to us for only God knows why ...
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Why can't they be moral in some one context? I'm not understanding .......... :dontcare:
Then show me a case where these things can be moral? Notice I said if they are moral they need to be explained. Are you willing top explain them for god?

... I'm also not understanding how your judgement here can be valid and made without having engaged a whole lot that's out there in Axiological Studies, especially when the onus is put on you to do so. No, it seems that all you do here, much of the time, is just %*#@! and complain!

I mean, face it! You're coming to us; we're not coming to stand on your doorstep and knock. No, it's you doing that to us for only God knows why ...
I did not realize I made you respond to my posts.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Then show me a case where these things can be moral? Notice I said if they are moral they need to be explained. Are you willing top explain them for god?
I've already done that in more than one place here on CF. I guess you missed out. But the answer is of right now, "NO!" You don't get an answer. If you want one, go do what I did and pull the lead and find one ... DO THE WORK and stop excusing yourself by how many books and/or sources you're going to need to go through from various philosophical doctors of all kinds.

I did not realize I made you respond to my posts.
You didn't. But I consider that when you make a response to my sister in Christ, you've made a response to one in the family.

So, get used to it! Besides, this is Christian public ground, not yours.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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I've already done that in more than one place here on CF. I guess you missed out. But the answer is of right now, "NO!" You don't get an answer. If you want one, go do what I did and pull the lead and find one ... DO THE WORK and stop excusing yourself by how many books and/or sources you're going to need to go through from various philosophical doctors of all kinds.
I have done the work, you just disagree with my conclusions. I cannot come up with any scenario where the best solution is for people to be owned by others as property and enabled to be beaten or any situation where homosexuals should be killed for their sexual acts. If you refuse to give one that is fine, but you cannot then conclude I have not done the "work". I am making the claim that owning people as property is always wrong based on what the bibles words and context says and my moral standard of well being. If you think it was moral then you can choose to explain why or you can choose not to. If you don't think the bible is literally true then fine as well, this was addressed to a person that does.

You didn't. But I consider that when you make a response to my sister in Christ, you've made a response to one in the family.
This makes no sense. I still have no ability to make you or stop you from responding to anything I post here no matter who I am talking to.

So, get used to it! Besides, this is Christian public ground, not yours.
Any moderator can kick me off for whatever reason they want at any time. Until then, I will still try to challenge peoples beliefs here. I don't have to respond to you and you don't have to respond to me.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I have done the work, you just disagree with my conclusions. I cannot come up with any scenario where the best solution is for people to be owned by others as property and enabled to be beaten or any situation where homosexuals should be killed for their sexual acts. If you refuse to give one that is fine, but you cannot then conclude I have not done the "work". I am making the claim that owning people as property is always wrong based on what the bibles words and context says and my moral standard of well being. If you think it was moral then you can choose to explain why or you can choose not to. If you don't think the bible is literally true then fine as well, this was addressed to a person that does.
You say you've done the 'work.' What, pray tell, equates to work in your overtly "book-less world"?

Moreover, since you hedge on providing an explanation of your epistemological praxis and refuse to either be accountable for your position or to buttress your position with a bibliographic LIST of sources (books), then NO ONE here need take your challenges seriously nor feel any obligation to 'fill you in.' If you're not accountable to us, then we're also not accountable ......... to you.

This makes no sense. I still have no ability to make you or stop you from responding to anything I post here no matter who I am talking to.
Sure it makes sense. You know very well what I'm talking about. Stop feigning ignorance. You're an ex-Christian for goodness sake!

Any moderator can kick me off for whatever reason they want at any time. Until then, I will still try to challenge peoples beliefs here. I don't have to respond to you and you don't have to respond to me.
In my mind, to 'challenge' people's beliefs is to not only question them, but to actually and fully engage their beliefs on their terms.................and through that, overcome them.

Instead, what you're doing here is nothing but stone-walling, and this is essentially what you've been doing ever since you showed up several months ago. Don't deny it; just concede that you intend to be a troll and much of what you're doing here isn't legitimate or compatible with the intentions of a true seeker or an actual inquirer. You're not a seeker----you're a "Kahn"!
 
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