Every jot and tittle

John Helpher

John 3:16
Supporter
Mar 25, 2020
1,345
479
45
Houston
✟85,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Hi all. I've had a look at a few threads here which deal with the old law and how it correlates to the new testament. There seems to be a growing number of people today who want to go back to the old law as though the old ways are superior to what Jesus taught. I believe this video does a pretty good job of explaining why we should not keep going back to the law because Jesus is the fulfillment of all the promises to Abraham. I'd like to hear what others think and I look forward to discussing the issues. :)

 

Brian Mcnamee

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2017
2,308
1,294
64
usa
✟213,965.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
a lot of the law remains unfulfilled as the Lord Jesus said He comes in the volume of the text. The two disciples had a meeting with Jesus after he was rise and Jesus explained to them from the scriptures how these things pertained to Him. After the LORD returns I'm sure he will give another teaching on how all these things every jot and title were fulfilled.
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,560
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think whoever this person is, he is viewing my own understanding with an extreme bias. For example... to say that Jesus broke the Sabbath makes him a sinner. See, if you believe that Jesus did away with the law, when did that happen? On the cross? Sin is the breaking of commandments (1 John 3:4), it is actually the word anomia there, so literally sin is the breaking of the law. Jesus died without sinning. Therefore, if he broke the Sabbath before his work on the cross (if you believe he did away with the law on the cross) then he sinned. He can't have sinned or he disqualified himself from being messiah.

If you would like to know why people like myself believe as we do, without hearing what we believe from somebody who has already taken a position against me without even knowing what I fully believe... I would be happy to share. Regardless of what you conclude... it would be worthwhile. But if this is just going to be a bash session, then I will want no part of it, respectfully.

Blessings.
Ken
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Boy, this is just plain bad. Jesus kept the Sabbath. Paul kept the Sabbath. A simple review of the book of Acts makes it evident that Paul taught in the synagogue every sabbath.
This is the key: the fatal misunderstanding in this video is that it fails to distinguish between the oral law (Talmud) which Jesus described as the traditions of men versus the written law which are the commandments of God. Jesus always condemned the Pharisees and scribes for their loyalty to their own rabbinical traditions (oral law) instead of being faithful to God's commands as dictated in the written law of Moses. In developing their oral traditions they added to or subtracted from God's law which Jesus constantly confronted them on. They would rather adhere to the former than obey the latter.
Once you comprehend this distinction, then things begin to fall into place.
 
Upvote 0

John Helpher

John 3:16
Supporter
Mar 25, 2020
1,345
479
45
Houston
✟85,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
For example... to say that Jesus broke the Sabbath makes him a sinner.

From the hardened, old-bottle, religious hypocrite perspective he broke the sabbath. The religious leaders of his day, those people who made the biggest fuss about the need to keep the law were the ones most vehemently accusing him.

See, if you believe that Jesus did away with the law, when did that happen?

Nah, Jesus himself made the point that he had not come to destroy the law (or do away with it), but to fulfill it. Jesus brought a new understanding; a new way which he referred to as the Kingdom of Heaven. Paul boasted about all of his amazing devotion and religious adherence to the law, and then said it was all dung compared to what Jesus brought.

On the cross?

The cross is a part of his ministry. What he said about money, material possessions, the grievance system, keeping our praying, fasting, and charity giving secret, not using special titles of flattery, and going in to all the world to preach the gospel are also part of the values which make up his fulfillment of the old law.

Sin is the breaking of commandments (1 John 3:4), it is actually the word anomia there, so literally sin is the breaking of the law.

Nah. Sin includes anything contrary to what is good or consistent with God's will. Eating ice cream can be sinful if it's done with a wrong motivation. That's one of the problems with the old law; people exploit it on the basis of the letter, believing themselves to be righteousness because of a technicality.
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,592
5,732
Montreal, Quebec
✟248,004.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I think whoever this person is, he is viewing my own understanding with an extreme bias. For example... to say that Jesus broke the Sabbath makes him a sinner.
I don't think so - what it shows, instead, is that, as God incarnate, Jesus has the authority to declare the end of the Law of Moses.

Jesus "breaks" the Law of Moses other times as well, for example when He declares He has the authority to forgive sin. If you know your Old Testament, the Law indicated you had to go to the Temple for forgiveness.

Remember when Jesus stopped the stoning of the woman caught in adultery? There, too, He defied the Law of Moses which calls for this woman to be stoned to death.
 
Upvote 0

John Helpher

John 3:16
Supporter
Mar 25, 2020
1,345
479
45
Houston
✟85,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Jesus kept the Sabbath.

Jesus said that all those who are weary should come to him and he'd give them sabbath. We don't come to Jesus one day per week. This idea that we only owe God one day per week (while the rest of the week we use our time working for money) is a distortion of the spirit behind sabbath.
 
Upvote 0

John Helpher

John 3:16
Supporter
Mar 25, 2020
1,345
479
45
Houston
✟85,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Jesus "breaks" the Law of Moses other times as well, for example when He declares He has the authority to forgive sin. If you know your Old Testament, the Law indicated you had to go to the Temple for forgiveness.

He also hinted that Moses was wrong for allowing people to divorce.

Remember when Jesus stopped the stoning of the woman caught in adultery? There, too, He defied the Law of Moses which calls for this woman to be stoned to death.

This is an excellent example of how the spirit surpasses the law; the pharisees were technically correct about the punishment for adultery, but Jesus could see that they weren't really concerned about moral authority or righteousness. They were using the woman (and her sin) as a tool against him. All their pride and technical nitpicking of the law had blinded them to the spirit.
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,592
5,732
Montreal, Quebec
✟248,004.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Sin is the breaking of commandments (1 John 3:4), it is actually the word anomia there, so literally sin is the breaking of the law.
Here is the 1 John 3:4 per Young's Literal Translation:

Every one who is doing the sin, the lawlessness also he doth do, and the sin is the lawlessness,

The greek work anomia is "lawlessness", not "the Law of Moses" - I do not see the justification for taking a general term like lawlessness and reducing it to specific focus on the Law of Moses. After all, one can be lawless by speeding - that is hardly a violation of the Law of Moses.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Cribstyl
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
10,592
5,732
Montreal, Quebec
✟248,004.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
There are plenty of reasons to believe the Law of Moses has come to an end. One biggie is that the Law of Moses marked out the Jew as distinct from the Gentile. But Paul argues at length that there should no longer be any such distinction - there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ Jesus. In fact, in Ephesians 2, Paul (or whoever wrote Ephesians 2) declares the abolition of the "Law of commandments contained in ordnances". And that has to be the Law of Moses he is talking about.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

John Helpher

John 3:16
Supporter
Mar 25, 2020
1,345
479
45
Houston
✟85,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
There are plenty of reasons to believe the Law of Moses has come to an end.

Yup, with his last breath he said, "it is finished" while at the same time the thick curtain in the temple which separated the Holy of Holies (where the Jews presumed God lived) was miraculously torn in two by God himself; the old way was done.
 
Upvote 0

Ricky M

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 19, 2017
1,905
1,319
66
Los Angeles
✟130,544.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
a lot of the law remains unfulfilled as the Lord Jesus said He comes in the volume of the text. The two disciples had a meeting with Jesus after he was rise and Jesus explained to them from the scriptures how these things pertained to Him. After the LORD returns I'm sure he will give another teaching on how all these things every jot and title were fulfilled.
I picture it more like, the moment we all arrive before Him, we all let out a "that's what that meant!" exclamation :)
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Jesus said that all those who are weary should come to him and he'd give them sabbath. We don't come to Jesus one day per week. This idea that we only owe God one day per week (while the rest of the week we use our time working for money) is a distortion of the spirit behind sabbath.
Incorrect. Why did Jesus keep the Sabbath. Why did Paul keep the Sabbath. They all distinguished ONE DAY of the week as the Sabbath; not everyday as you claim.
 
Upvote 0

John Helpher

John 3:16
Supporter
Mar 25, 2020
1,345
479
45
Houston
✟85,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Why did Jesus keep the Sabbath. Why did Paul keep the Sabbath. They all distinguished ONE DAY of the week as the Sabbath; not everyday as you claim.

I guess you can't see it, which is one of the problems with this whole "lets follow the old law" thing, but you're arguing in favor of giving less time to God while at the same time claiming this is what God himself most wants from us. It's just so weird.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Brian Mcnamee

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2017
2,308
1,294
64
usa
✟213,965.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
hi yes I think so but some things if literal will be obvious such as is the MT of Olives really going to split in two? (Zeh 14) I think so in that the boundaries for the new valley and the direction of the river flows is given and it does say if flows year round. This happens on the day the LORD comes with all his saints and that the LORD is king over all the earth. This does not occur until Jerusalem is overrun and half the city is taken captive and then the LORD comes with his saints. I think this is exactly what will happen and have tried to correlate all the other passages that speak of these events too. So some may be more veiled but others are pretty clear.
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I guess you can't see it, which is one of the problems with this whole "lets follow the old law" thing, but you're arguing in favor of giving less time to God while at the same time claiming this is what God himself most wants from us. It's just so weird.
Actions speak louder than words, do they not? So since Jesus kept the Sabbath and Paul kept the Sabbath, what do you suppose their actions entail? Didn't Jesus say follow me? Aren't we supposed to be like Jesus and imitate Him? Does not the word say to love Him is to obey His commandments? Which commandments existed at the time of Jesus? The NT had not yet been codified. Answer: the OT LAW.

You claim it's weird because you and I have been wrongly taught. You are experiencing cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias, which is natural but an impediment to your understanding of Scripture. I experienced the same thing.

Paul could not have made things any clearer but the church has the bad habit of ignoring things that don't fit into its comfortable paradigm.
Rom 3:31
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Jesus taught that the spirit of the law exceeds the letter of the law but that by no means the letter of the law no longer exists. We not only refrain from committing physical adultery but we now refrain from committing adultery with our eyes. However that does not mean we are now free to ignore the law and engage in physical adultery now does it?
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,599
Hudson
✟281,635.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Hi all. I've had a look at a few threads here which deal with the old law and how it correlates to the new testament. There seems to be a growing number of people today who want to go back to the old law as though the old ways are superior to what Jesus taught. I believe this video does a pretty good job of explaining why we should not keep going back to the law because Jesus is the fulfillment of all the promises to Abraham. I'd like to hear what others think and I look forward to discussing the issues. :)


All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160) and God's ways are eternal (Habakkuk 3:6), so none of them will ever become old. In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he taught the same law and how to walk in the same ways. Jesus set sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he had said nothing, including keeping the Sabbath holy, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). Furthermore, he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, but rather he began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23). The Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which he prophesied would be proclaims to all of the nations (Matthew 24:12-14).

So everything that Jesus taught by word and by example was how to obey the Mosaic Law, which means that he was much more zealous for obedience to it than the Pharisees. He did not stretch of ignore the Sabbath, but he did disagree with a group of them about how to correctly keep the Sabbath. Jesus never criticized the Pharisees for keeping the Mosaic Law, but he did criticized them for not obeying it correct. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness, so he was not coming against the law, but rather he was calling them to a fuller obedience to it. His purpose of criticizing the Pharisees was not in order to get them to stop obeying what God had commanded them to do.

Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it, so you should not interpret that as meaning essentially the same thing, especially if you don't consistently interpret fulfilling the Law of Christ in Galatians 6:2 as abolishing it. Likewise, in Romans 15:18-19, Paul fulfilling the Gospel of Christ does not refer to abolishing it, but to fully preaching it. If you stop at a stop sign, then you have fulfilled that law, but you have not ended it. Rather, "to fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfillment" (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the law in Matthew 5, he proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it or by completing our understanding of it. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did. Jesus said that not a jot or tittle would disappear from the law until heaven and earth passed away and all is accomplished, neither of which has happened yet, both of which won't happen until end times.

In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge because they did not understand that the righteousness of God only comes through faith in Christ. So they failed to obtain righteousness because they pursued the Law as through righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the Law as through righteousness were by faith, for Christ is the goal of the Law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, Paul quoted Deuteronomy 30:11-16, in regard to this faith saying that God's Law is not too difficult for us to obey, that the one who obeys it will obtain life by it, and in regard to what it means to submit to Jesus as Lord. So there is nothing in the context of this verse that even remotely suggests that Christ is ending his eternal Law, but just the opposite.

In Acts 18:18, Paul took a Nazarite vow, which involved making sin offerings (Numbers 6) and in Acts 21:20-24, Paul was on his way to pay for and join the purification rites of others who had taken a similar vow in order to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Law and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Hebrews 8:4, it speaks about offerings that were still being made in accordance with the Law. Furthermore, it says that Jesus would not be a priest if he were still on earth, and if the Law were no longer in effect, then it would have no power to do prevent that. So offerings did not stop with the death or resurrection of Jesus, but only stopped because of the destruction of the temple. However, the Bible prophesies of a time when a third temple will be built and when offerings will resume, so those laws have not gone anywhere (Ezekiel 44-46).

I've read a Hebrew manuscript with vowel points that clearly states the name of God as Yehovah and the name of Messiah as Yeshua, so that is what it was known to be as far as the Masoretes were concerned, and that is good enough for me. The Spring Festivals were prophetic in regard to Christ's first coming while the Fall Festivals are prophetic in regard to his second coming. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of the Mosaic Law, so there is no sense in someone wanting salvation from living in disobedience to the Mosaic Law while wanting nothing to do with repenting and living in obedience to it by faith. Jesus said in John 5:46-47 that if they believed Moses, then they would believe him because Moses wrote about him, but if they don't believe what he wrote, then how can they believe his words, so we can't believe in Jesus without also believing in Moses.

The phrase "Law and the Prophets" straightforwardly refers to everything in the Law and the Prophets. Jesus did not teach anything that wasn't in accordance with the Mosaic Law in Matthew 5. In Leviticus 19:17, we are instructed not to hate our brother, so that was nothing brand new. If you think that God made the Sabbath for man, then you should regard it as a precious gift from God, not spurn it.

You speak about holiness and righteousness are if they are somehow negative character traits, when they are never treated as such in the Bible. In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, which straightforwardly includes keeping God's Sabbaths holy (Leviticus 19:2-3) and refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:4-45), so following those instructions is about testifying to nations about the holiness of our God. Likewise, in 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentiles are included as part of God's chosen people, a holy nation, a royal priesthood, and a treasure of God's own possession, which as all terms used to describe Israel (Deuteronomy 7:6), so Gentiles also have the delight of getting to obey the instructions that God gave for how to fulfill those roles.

Sin is the transgression of the law, and we have been set free from sin in order to be free to obey God's law, not the other way around (Romans 8:3-4). In John 1:16-17, it says grace upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the law, and there is not "but" in verse 17 in the Greek. The way to serve the Lord Jesus Christ is not by refusing to follow the Law that he followed and spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey by word and by example.
 
Upvote 0

klutedavid

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2013
9,346
4,381
Sydney, Australia.
✟244,844.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I think whoever this person is, he is viewing my own understanding with an extreme bias. For example... to say that Jesus broke the Sabbath makes him a sinner. See, if you believe that Jesus did away with the law, when did that happen? On the cross? Sin is the breaking of commandments (1 John 3:4), it is actually the word anomia there, so literally sin is the breaking of the law. Jesus died without sinning. Therefore, if he broke the Sabbath before his work on the cross (if you believe he did away with the law on the cross) then he sinned. He can't have sinned or he disqualified himself from being messiah.

If you would like to know why people like myself believe as we do, without hearing what we believe from somebody who has already taken a position against me without even knowing what I fully believe... I would be happy to share. Regardless of what you conclude... it would be worthwhile. But if this is just going to be a bash session, then I will want no part of it, respectfully.

Blessings.
Ken
The great high priest works on the sabbath and is not guilty of breaking the sabbath. Jesus worked on the Sabbath as the great high priest should.

Jesus was accused of breaking the sabbath and claiming equality with God. Jesus was guilty on both counts.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: expos4ever
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,499
Milwaukee
✟410,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I think whoever this person is, he is viewing my own understanding with an extreme bias. For example... to say that Jesus broke the Sabbath makes him a sinner. See, if you believe that Jesus did away with the law, when did that happen? On the cross? Sin is the breaking of commandments (1 John 3:4), it is actually the word anomia there, so literally sin is the breaking of the law. Jesus died without sinning. Therefore, if he broke the Sabbath before his work on the cross (if you believe he did away with the law on the cross) then he sinned. He can't have sinned or he disqualified himself from being messiah.

The message of Jesus and him paying the price for our sins fulfilled or displaced the law. every jot and tittle. His message was forgiveness of all sins, every jot and tittle. His payment for all crimes of humanity was his death.

The old covenant included death for many crimes. Jesus paid for all those crimes and ever other crime. With His forgiveness, all sins are not counted against those who wish to be with the Father.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: expos4ever
Upvote 0