The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[HatGuy]

From the largely-ignored OP ...
There are at least 10 NT verses for each of the following truths …
Believers prove they have true saving faith:
1 -- by their obedience
2 -- by practicing righteousness
3 -- by living holy lives
4 -- by having a healthy fear of God
5 -- by repenting of their occasional sins
6 -- by overcoming sin, the world, Satan, persecution
7 -- by enduring in the faith to the end of their lives

Yes, there are at least 10 NT verses for each of the above truths!
But, no one seems interested in any of these verses!
Not surprising, because people prefer their own opinions to what Scripture says!

Does Jesus get to take any credit in your theology, or does the believer get to do everything ?

 

[BCsenior]

Does Jesus get to take any credit in your theology, or does the believer get to do everything ?

Da Jesus part is obvious, so may we partake of the rest of God's word?
Like, for example ...
In every sentence I write, must I include the whole of the NT as backup/confirmation?

If one understands what the NT is saying,
one will understand how each verse fits in with da whole.
For example, the NT "believe" means far more than what one word can possibly portray!
In any language.

 

[Healing with Jesus]

From the largely-ignored OP ...
There are at least 10 NT verses for each of the following truths …
Believers prove they have true saving faith:
1 -- by their obedience
2 -- by practicing righteousness
3 -- by living holy lives
4 -- by having a healthy fear of God
5 -- by repenting of their occasional sins
6 -- by overcoming sin, the world, Satan, persecution
7 -- by enduring in the faith to the end of their lives

Yes, there are at least 10 NT verses for each of the above truths!
But, no one seems interested in any of these verses!
Not surprising, because people prefer their own opinions to what Scripture says!

Hi, I am interested in hearing more about this. Please do share the verses you have in mind. I am reading the first book in Derek Prince's Foundation series (Repent and Believe) and he seems to say the same thing.

What should we do in the cases where we have a choice to demonstrate love / grace / mercy to a wayward child / sinner, versus holding them accountable?

How do we ensure we are not guilty of removing a speck from our brother's eye while we have a log in ours? Won't we always have some specks in our eyes? What about sins that we may not be aware of?

What about when we're in the "prodigal" phase? If we become born-again and we backslide, are we forever lost and punished with eternal separation from God?

Where are we with the Lord in that "babes" phase when we just don't know the Lord that well? Do we lose the Holy Spirit and then gain Him back if/when we repent? How much must we repent? What degree of sin is too great?

 

[BCsenior]

Hi, I am interested in hearing more about this. Please do share the verses you have in mind. I am reading the first book in Derek Prince's Foundation series (Repent and Believe) and he seems to say the same thing.
What should we do in the cases where we have a choice to demonstrate love / grace / mercy to a wayward child / sinner, versus holding them accountable?
How do we ensure we are not guilty of removing a speck from our brother's eye while we have a log in ours? Won't we always have some specks in our eyes? What about sins that we may not be aware of?
What about when we're in the "prodigal" phase? If we become born-again and we backslide, are we forever lost and punished with eternal separation from God?
Where are we with the Lord in that "babes" phase when we just don't know the Lord that well? Do we lose the Holy Spirit and then gain Him back if/when we repent? How much must we repent? What degree of sin is too great?

Hi, HWJ ...
There are 70+ NT verses ... do you have a category in mind?
Derek Prince is monumental.
Show love and understanding, while pointing out the truth in the NT.
Sincere repentance (stopping the sin) takes care of any outstanding sin.
It is unclear whether the Holy Spirit EVER leaves a habitual sinner.
It is unclear if there is an end-point when He will NEVER return.
IMO, it varies depending on the individual.
There is NO sin too grievous for the Lord Jesus to forgive (through repentance).
God bless you ... you're on the right track.
And hold tight to Derek Prince like a brother.

 

[bobsmename]

. Incidentally, perfectionism leads to sin, it does not lead to perfection.

Very true. If you told someone God would condemn them to hell if they thought of a pink rabbit, which thought would soon consume them if they believed you?
Therefore, if you told someone God would condemn them to hell if they did not obey the ten commandments-ie thou shalt not covet, which thoughts would they soon be consumed by if they believed you?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I've never met a professing born again Christian who read the Bible and who actually believes they have been given a license to sin.

I met a person who admitted that they could mow down a crowd of people with a submachine gun and they would still be saved while doing so because they have a belief alone on Jesus. I have discovered that most of all your churches today believe all future sin is forgiven them. While they say that a true believer will not be a practicing murderer, adulterer, drunkard, etc. (otherwise they most likely were never saved), they turn around at another point and say that a believer can be killed physically by God and taken to Heaven for committing certain bad sins like drinking, gluttony, etc. (i.e. they falsely think this is the "sin unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:16-17); Many that appear to teach that we must progressively live more holy also contradict themselves at another point and say that a believer can be saved if they commit suicide and or if they take the mark of the beast, etc.

You need to be more careful in listening to what they say.
Just because they appear to teach that we must follow Jesus and live more progressively holy does not mean they believe they must uphold that standard of holy living within the Bible. Most Christians today think we cannot meet the base level minimum requirements of holy living described in the Bible. They think that they will be made to live holy when they die and go to Heaven.

Ask these questions in any church.
Do you believe that a believer loses salvation by committing the sin of lying and they refuse to confess that sin to Jesus?
Ask, them, "Do you believe that you can overcome the sins the kind of sins in the Bible that are attached with spiritual death condemnation or hellfire?"

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So what! The body loves to speak in tongues but cannot understand plain English?

IE: The new mortal sin

"Mortal sin" is a Catholic term for any really bad sin that can cause spiritual death or condemnation in hell fire. I am not Catholic, and I only follow the Bible alone, so I prefer to use the biblical term "grievous sin.".

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" (Genesis 18:20).

Basically, grievous sin is any sin that leads to spiritual death or condemnation if it is not confessed to the Lord Jesus Christ. For 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (cf. with 1 John 2:1). For Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. We also learn that in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee, that the tax collector cried out to the Lord for forgiveness and or mercy over his sinful condition (of which the Pharisee did not do), and Jesus said that the tax collector was more justified than the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14). Meaning, we have to seek forgiveness with the Lord to have forgiveness. We also see this truth expressed in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, as well.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Incidentally, perfectionism leads to sin, it does not lead to perfection.

Then you are saying attempting to not sin, leads us to, or makes us sin?

Very true. If you told someone God would condemn them to hell if they thought of a pink rabbit, which thought would soon consume them if they believed you?
Therefore, if you told someone God would condemn them to hell if they did not obey the ten commandments-ie thou shalt not covet, which thoughts would they soon be consumed by if they believed you?

Since your reply was to the mention of perfection, can you pleases tell us where God said he would condemn anyone to hell for not perfectly obeying the ten commandments in our day?

 

[bobsmename]

Then you are saying attempting to not sin, leads us to, or makes us sin?




Since your reply was to the mention of perfection, can you pleases tell us where God said he would condemn anyone to hell for not perfectly obeying the ten commandments in our day?

No I did not say attempting to not sin leads us to sin or makes us sin

I did not say either God said he would condemn anyone to hell if they did not perfectly obey the Ten Commandments

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Doesn't every BAC know this already even if they choose to ignore it? I don't recall ever hearing a single sermon from any denomination promoting a ' Christians have a license to sin' approach.

They are not going to make it obvious that they are promoting a license to sin always. It is more subtle. Ask if they teach that all future sin is forgiven for a believer. I would say 99% of your churches teach that. The problem with saying this is that if we were to tell a child that their future sin is forgiven them, and we never see them again, they could easily turn out to be the next George Sodini, and their blood will be on our hands.

Who is George Sodini?

On August 4th, 2009, 48 year old George Sodini shot 9 people in a Pittsburg Pennsylvania health club. At the time of the writing of this article (August 6th), four people had died to include George by his own self-inflicted gunshot wound.

George Sodini, mass murderer and professed Christian Eternal Securist wrote; “Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.”"

Source:
GEORGE SODINI

 

[bobsmename]

They are not going to make it obvious that they are promoting a license to sin always. It is more subtle. Ask if they teach that all future sin is forgiven for a believer. I would say 99% of your churches teach that. The problem with saying this is that if we were to tell a child that their future sin is forgiven them, and we never see them again, they could easily turn out to be the next George Sodini, and their blood will be on our hands.

Who is George Sodini?

On August 4th, 2009, 48 year old George Sodini shot 9 people in a Pittsburg Pennsylvania health club. At the time of the writing of this article (August 6th), four people had died to include George by his own self-inflicted gunshot wound.

George Sodini, mass murderer and professed Christian Eternal Securist wrote; “Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.”"

Source:
GEORGE SODINI

If Jesus only died for past sins, the believer must live their life under righteousness of obeying the law. Paul is emphatic, they do not. Np truly born again believer could use such knowledge as a licence to sin, the new covenant does not allow for that. Those who have not truly been born again are not christians

 

[Kenny'sID]

No I did not say attempting to not sin leads us to sin or makes us sin

I know, the quote was for Hatguy

I did not say either God said he would condemn anyone to hell if they did not perfectly obey the Ten Commandments

My point was if that was part of the formula you just mentioned then that formula falls apart because God doesn't expect perfection and no one I know teaches he does.

If I'm wrong, will you please show me who teaches God expects perfection? See that is just another deception Hatguy is presenting because without the deceit, he would have to just stop arguing...it's all OSAS has to work with to defends their way.

Or maybe HatGuy can backup his comment there on God or preachers expectation of perfection?

 

[bobsmename]

Generally, all those sins punishable by death under the law of Moses. Those a person could not be justified for under the law.

The earliest controversy in the Church involved the sins of murder, adultery, and idolatry.

Of course, under the old covenant David was forgiven for murder and adultery. If no believer, once baptised can under the new covenant be forgiven of what is termed 'mortal sin', surely that would mean God was more forgiving of sin before Jesus died for believers sins than after

 

[Chris V++]

I met a person who admitted that they could mow down a crowd of people with a submachine gun and they would still be saved while doing so because they have a belief alone on Jesus. I have discovered that most of all your churches today believe all future sin is forgiven them. While they say that a true believer will not be a practicing murderer, adulterer, drunkard, etc. (otherwise they most likely were never saved), they turn around at another point and say that a believer can be killed physically by God and taken to Heaven for committing certain bad sins like drinking, gluttony, etc. (i.e. they falsely think this is the "sin unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:16-17); Many that appear to teach that we must progressively live more holy also contradict themselves at another point and say that a believer can be saved if they commit suicide and or if they take the mark of the beast, etc.

You need to be more careful in listening to what they say.
Just because they appear to teach that we must follow Jesus and live more progressively holy does not mean they believe they must uphold that standard of holy living within the Bible. Most Christians today think we cannot meet the base level minimum requirements of holy living described in the Bible. They think that they will be made to live holy when they die and go to Heaven.

Ask these questions in any church.
Do you believe that a believer loses salvation by committing the sin of lying and they refuse to confess that sin to Jesus?
Ask, them, "Do you believe that you can overcome the sins the kind of sins in the Bible that are attached with spiritual death condemnation or hellfire?"

I do appreciate the explanation. I can see how on one hand a person if taught eternal security they can get the impression , even subliminally, that they can exploit loopholes and get away with sins without consequences since they anticipate forgiveness, like that George Sardini. I've heard preachers tell audiences that if they say that prayer sincerely with even a mustard seed measure of faith they are henceforth 'born again' but that wasn't my experience so I can't comment. I just don't think I can go thru life thinking that I can be cut down on some technicality like some denominations preach, since there are so many litmus tests for true Christians, and since I am acutely aware of how short I'd fall.
I heard a preacher once say it's a sin to not forgive yourself for acknowledged sins that God has already forgiven you of, so I guess that means feeling not forgiven for something already confessed is also sinful.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If Jesus only died for past sins, the believer must live their life under righteousness of obeying the law. Paul is emphatic, they do not. Np truly born again believer could use such knowledge as a licence to sin, the new covenant does not allow for that. Those who have not truly been born again are not christians

You cannot confess of sin to be forgiven of sin if future sin is forgiven a person. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. The problem today is that Christians are not reading and believing this verse and many others.

Also, the Law that Paul talks about is the 613 laws of Moses as a whole or contract. Acts of the Apostles 13:39 says we are not justified by the Law of Moses. Paul never speaks against the keeping of the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), or the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25), or the Command to Believe on Jesus and love one another (1 John 3:23). In other words, there is a huge difference between Old Testament Law (the 613 laws of Moses), vs. New Testament Law (Laws that come from Jesus and His followers).

In the book of Romans, Galatians, and Corinthians: Every time you see the word "law" or "works," just look at the surrounding context and you will see that it is in reference to the "Law of Moses" which ended with Christ's sacrifice. For the temple veil was torn from top to bottom at the cross, letting us know that the Law had ended. For if the laws on animal sacrifices and the priesthood ended with the temple veil being torn, then it is logical to assume that the whole of the Old Law is no more. In fact, that is what Hebrews 8:13 says. Jesus said at the Lord's supper (before His crucifixion) to His disciples that the Old was going to soon disappear (And it did with His death).

We are under a New Covenant with New Commands.

Paul was arguing for the necessity of the process of salvation called: "Justification" (which is a process of salvation that is without the deeds of the Law because it is based on God's mercy and forgiveness). This does not mean that there is not another step or stage in the salvation process after one is saved by God's grace. I believe this next step after Justification is Sanctification. One has to look at the whole counsel of God's Word to get a more fuller picture of salvation. But most are satisfied to just listen to their Pastor and for him to spoon feed them. They do not study God's Word on their own in prayer and just read and believe the plain text. They seek to change what the Bible plainly says. For example: Philippians 2:12 says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. This is obviously talking about fear because why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear? But men who want to justify sin on some level will say that "fear" does not mean "fear" and they will seek to change that word because they don't like it. So they say future sin is forgiven a person (Thereby leading people to treat God's grace as a license to sin on some level). For one does not have to practice sin in order to be condemned by that sin. One can think they can occasionally sin and not worry about confessing it to the Lord and think they are saved by thinking all their future sin is forgiven them (as long as they are not doing the really bad stuff like murdering all the time, or committing armed robbery, or being a inappropriate content star, etc.). Unfortunately, they do not need to worry about the other kinds of sins that Jesus said will destroy them. They do not heed the warnings of Jesus about how certain other sins can destroy their soul as Jesus warned us in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, and Matthew 25:31-46. Why do they not care? Because their future sin is forgiven them. Thus, they have a license.

 

[jahel]

If you can raise someone from the dead then I’ll believe that you have the right to forgive others their sins. I believe that was the litmus test.

Ps, wel,, that felt good.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I do appreciate the explanation. I can see how on one hand a person if taught eternal security they can get the impression , even subliminally, that they can exploit loopholes and get away with sins without consequences since they anticipate forgiveness, like that George Sardini. I've heard preachers tell audiences that if they say that prayer sincerely with even a mustard seed measure of faith they are henceforth 'born again' but that wasn't my experience so I can't comment. I just don't think I can go thru life thinking that I can be cut down on some technicality like some denominations preach, since there are so many litmus tests for true Christians, and since I am acutely aware of how short I'd fall.
I heard a preacher once say it's a sin to not forgive yourself for acknowledged sins that God has already forgiven you of, so I guess that means feeling not forgiven for something already confessed is also sinful.

Ananias and Sapphira were killed for lying to the Spirit and as a result a great fear came upon the church and all who heard about it (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1-11; Note: Pay special close attention to verse 11). Now, if we were to be honest with ourselves and think like an objective detective who investigates a crime scene, we would realize that the emotion of fear does not make sense by the church if....

(a) Ananias and Sapphira were safely in the arms of Jesus, or
(b) Ananias and Sapphria were never saved to begin with.

For if Ananias and Sapphira were safely in the arms of Jesus, the church would not experience the emotion of fear, but they would simply either be sad (because they would miss them), or they would be joyful (that they are with the Lord).

If Ananias and Sapphira were false believers or professors, the church would not feel the emotion of fear, but they would either be sad (because they wished them to be saved), or they would feel that justice was done in the fact that what they did was really wrong and God condemned them justly for it.

The only reason the church would experience fear is if they knew that a similar thing could happen to them with another kind of sin that the Lord would not be happy with. So this shows that we are not once saved always saved or that future sin is forgiven us. It's why Scripture says to work out your salvation with FEAR and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear? Again, your belief has to re-write the plain and simple meaning of these truths in Scripture (Because they do not agree with a more comfortable theology that has been taught by the masses).

 

[jahel]

It’s also perdition vs rewards and loss thereof.

 

[jahel]

Elementary dear Watson

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you can raise someone from the dead then I’ll believe that you have the right to forgive others their sins. I believe that was the litmus test.

Ps, wel,, that felt good.

I am not Catholic or a Catholic priest. Only Jesus can forgiven sin. We have to confess of our sins only to Him. For Jesus is the only mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5). If we confess our sins, he (Christ) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9 cf. with 1 John 2:1).