The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

[klutedavid]

The belief in free will has a major effect on how we understand scripture. This becomes obvious when a free will believer interprets the same verse of scripture differently from a non-free will believer. As an example, Jesus said “whoever believes has eternal life”. The free will believer assumes Jesus means whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. But the other assumes Jesus means believing is a trait or characteristic of those whom God saves. As in “where there is smoke there is fire”.

Some other examples follow.

Jesus said “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Again, notice how we can read this passage and have two different results. Free Will sees this passage as law calling for obedience. Assuming whoever chooses to believe should not perish. But the other sees believing as evidence God saved the person or they would not believe. Both claim salvation by grace. Many think grace is conditional as with any law. That is, grace provides a new lesser law based on believing. Through which people can choose to believe and save themselves. And they feel comfortable reading salvation passages as law.

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17 (KJV 1900)

In this passage, grace is the opposite of law. Grace means “The undeserved favor of God toward humans.”1 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6 (KJV 1900). So conditional grace turns scripture into a lesser law and salvation into works of obedience. Where grace alone sees faith and obedience as fruits of salvation by grace.

1Fee, G. D., & Hubbard, R. L., Jr. (Eds.). (2011). The Eerdmans Companion to the Bible (p. 751). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

The OT law assumed free will and God held Israel accountable based on their works. God threatened sickness and war, famine and pestilence when Israel did not obey the Law. He also promised rewards for obedience. But he based his rewards on obedience, not on grace. Grace demands no obedience, but always results in obedience motivated by love for God. So in this case, the few God saved by grace in the OT kept the Law as a result of their salvation.

So it is important to see scripture in the right frame of mind. In the Old Testament, the right frame of mind was according to Law and free will. In the New Testament, the right frame of mind is grace. Where believing and obedience serve as evidence of God’s grace in our lives. And as proof of our salvation. But free will imported into the New Testament, where the grace view is possible, only places us back under the law that could never save.

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of [God’s] debt.” Romans 4:4 (KJV 1900)

Do you believe it is possible that God could graft the Gentiles out of the olive tree?

Romans 11:19-21
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Is Paul telling a lie here, in that, the Gentiles were predestined to adoption in Jesus Christ?
Since the Gentiles stand because it is God's sovereign will that they remain grafted. They logically cannot be grafted out again.

Or is Paul not lying here and there is always the distinct possibility that the Gentiles can be grafted out again?

Either Paul is lying or Paul is not lying.

 

[truefiction1]

The belief in free will has a major effect on how we understand scripture. This becomes obvious when a free will believer interprets the same verse of scripture differently from a non-free will believer. As an example, Jesus said “whoever believes has eternal life”. The free will believer assumes Jesus means whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. But the other assumes Jesus means believing is a trait or characteristic of those whom God saves. As in “where there is smoke there is fire”.

Some other examples follow.

Jesus said “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Again, notice how we can read this passage and have two different results. Free Will sees this passage as law calling for obedience. Assuming whoever chooses to believe should not perish. But the other sees believing as evidence God saved the person or they would not believe. Both claim salvation by grace. Many think grace is conditional as with any law. That is, grace provides a new lesser law based on believing. Through which people can choose to believe and save themselves. And they feel comfortable reading salvation passages as law.

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17 (KJV 1900)

In this passage, grace is the opposite of law. Grace means “The undeserved favor of God toward humans.”1 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6 (KJV 1900). So conditional grace turns scripture into a lesser law and salvation into works of obedience. Where grace alone sees faith and obedience as fruits of salvation by grace.

1Fee, G. D., & Hubbard, R. L., Jr. (Eds.). (2011). The Eerdmans Companion to the Bible (p. 751). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

The OT law assumed free will and God held Israel accountable based on their works. God threatened sickness and war, famine and pestilence when Israel did not obey the Law. He also promised rewards for obedience. But he based his rewards on obedience, not on grace. Grace demands no obedience, but always results in obedience motivated by love for God. So in this case, the few God saved by grace in the OT kept the Law as a result of their salvation.

So it is important to see scripture in the right frame of mind. In the Old Testament, the right frame of mind was according to Law and free will. In the New Testament, the right frame of mind is grace. Where believing and obedience serve as evidence of God’s grace in our lives. And as proof of our salvation. But free will imported into the New Testament, where the grace view is possible, only places us back under the law that could never save.

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of [God’s] debt.” Romans 4:4 (KJV 1900)

Well, if "grace" is defined (as you've defined it above) then it is no longer really grace, now is it? But grace is far greater than an abstract concept circumscribed by words formulated by a human intellect, no?

 

[Tra Phull]

Paul is not lying. Us wild olive branches could get grafted back out, it's a real warning.

 

[PaulCyp1]

Which is why Jesus Christ founded one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Anyone who reads the Bible should know this. He didn't want us to each interpret Scripture for ourselves. He knew that it would lead to dissension, division, confusion and false beliefs. He knew it would lead to the doctrinal chaos of Protestantism.

 

[Tra Phull]

Did He know it would lead to The Great Schism of 1054 that divided Catholic and Orthodox before any Protestants were even on the scene?

 

[Tra Phull]

Orthodox also claim they are "the one true church" founded by the Apostles.

 

[klutedavid]

Which is why Jesus Christ founded one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Anyone who reads the Bible should know this. He didn't want us to each interpret Scripture for ourselves. He knew that it would lead to dissension, division, confusion and false beliefs. He knew it would lead to the doctrinal chaos of Protestantism.

The church as a whole was laden with divisions from the very beginning, have you not read Paul's letter to the Corinthians?

 

[klutedavid]

Which is why Jesus Christ founded one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Anyone who reads the Bible should know this. He didn't want us to each interpret Scripture for ourselves. He knew that it would lead to dissension, division, confusion and false beliefs. He knew it would lead to the doctrinal chaos of Protestantism.

There are a thousand denominations in the Catholic church and your pointing the finger at the protestants.

 

[klutedavid]

Paul is not lying. Us wild olive branches could get grafted back out, it's a real warning.

That is the only conclusion to draw.

Paul must have been stating the truth and we remain in the olive tree purely through God's kindness. Not His sovereign will.

The nation of Israel was chosen, was predestined from eternity. Yet Israel, was in turn, even though a chosen nation and predestined, grafted out because of unbelief.

 

[zoidar]

The belief in free will has a major effect on how we understand scripture. This becomes obvious when a free will believer interprets the same verse of scripture differently from a non-free will believer. As an example, Jesus said “whoever believes has eternal life”. The free will believer assumes Jesus means whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. But the other assumes Jesus means believing is a trait or characteristic of those whom God saves. As in “where there is smoke there is fire”.

Some other examples follow.

Jesus said “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 (KJV 1900)

Again, notice how we can read this passage and have two different results. Free Will sees this passage as law calling for obedience. Assuming whoever chooses to believe should not perish. But the other sees believing as evidence God saved the person or they would not believe. Both claim salvation by grace. Many think grace is conditional as with any law. That is, grace provides a new lesser law based on believing. Through which people can choose to believe and save themselves. And they feel comfortable reading salvation passages as law.

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17 (KJV 1900)

In this passage, grace is the opposite of law. Grace means “The undeserved favor of God toward humans.”1 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6 (KJV 1900). So conditional grace turns scripture into a lesser law and salvation into works of obedience. Where grace alone sees faith and obedience as fruits of salvation by grace.

1Fee, G. D., & Hubbard, R. L., Jr. (Eds.). (2011). The Eerdmans Companion to the Bible (p. 751). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

The OT law assumed free will and God held Israel accountable based on their works. God threatened sickness and war, famine and pestilence when Israel did not obey the Law. He also promised rewards for obedience. But he based his rewards on obedience, not on grace. Grace demands no obedience, but always results in obedience motivated by love for God. So in this case, the few God saved by grace in the OT kept the Law as a result of their salvation.

So it is important to see scripture in the right frame of mind. In the Old Testament, the right frame of mind was according to Law and free will. In the New Testament, the right frame of mind is grace. Where believing and obedience serve as evidence of God’s grace in our lives. And as proof of our salvation. But free will imported into the New Testament, where the grace view is possible, only places us back under the law that could never save.

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of [God’s] debt.” Romans 4:4 (KJV 1900)

The most important thing is does the belief in free will or not affect how we live as Christians? What would you say Dave?

 

[Dave L]

The most important thing is does the belief in free will or not affect how we live as Christians? What would you say Dave?

Free will = trusting in your faith to save you. The focus should be trusting in Christ to save you.

 

[Dave L]

Well, if "grace" is defined (as you've defined it above) then it is no longer really grace, now is it? But grace is far greater than an abstract concept circumscribed by words formulated by a human intellect, no?

I defined Grace. If you believe otherwise perhaps you could prove it from scripture?

 

[Dave L]

Do you believe it is possible that God could graft the Gentiles out of the olive tree?

Romans 11:19-21
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Is Paul telling a lie here, in that, the Gentiles were predestined to adoption in Jesus Christ?
Since the Gentiles stand because it is God's sovereign will that they remain grafted. They logically cannot be grafted out again.

Or is Paul not lying here and there is always the distinct possibility that the Gentiles can be grafted out again?

Either Paul is lying or Paul is not lying.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

You went to a lot of misdirected effort to ruin my credibility but a clear translation in the common English is found in the NASB.
Romans 4:4 (NASB)
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
Romans 4:4 (KJV)
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

I have included the verse, as it correctly reads because the two versions agree. I would that you were careful with adding words to the scriptures and we are warned, as my feeble old mind recalls from the days I taught the Bible, we are warned four times never to add nor subtract even a title from the scripture that are the accurate word of Yashuah ha'Mashiah, known to many as Jesus as is clearly seen in John 1:1-5, there is nothing He did not create in the stead of His Father, YHWH. The last and most commonly debated by the understudied is found in the last verse of Revelation 22. The first one is
Deuteronomy 4:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Ye shall not add
Deuteronomy 4:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
Deuteronomy 4:2 (KJV)
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

YHWH had put Believers, Freewill or not on a short leash in this arena. It is my prayer that you heed the Word of our Elohim and hang a good bit closer to what He has recorded for us to learn.

You are confusing free will and law in the OT which could not save. With Grace in the NT.

 

[Dave L]

God already remembers the choices you are going to make.
Glad to help! - Sky

He planned the choices I make.

 

[Dave L]

The irony of this post is it only matters if we have free will. If we have free will, our beliefs can significantly impact our behavior (as you described), and thus deception is dangerous. If we do not have free will, then our beliefs and actions are determined by God and thus deception is as dangerous as an ember swallowed by the sea and can be hand-waved without caution.

The Bible will only ever make sense if we are responsible (able to respond) of our actions, genuinely choosing between what has been set before us, whether life or death, blessing or cursing.

“So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.” Romans 9:16 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

What a difficult post to understand.

Could you provide a comprehensive definition of that word, 'free will'.

Free will applies to law. The law holds people accountable. Grace is not law. Free will has no effect on grace.

 

[Dave L]

First - a bit of a preface to my remarks concerning what you have written in the OP.

Of the two strains of believers associated with these concepts (Calvinists and non or anti Calvinists) - both believe in free will. That is assuming you mean the term as most mean it. I.e. all people can make choices as they want to and without God or anyone else forcing them to.

(Obviously no created being can have total freedom to do as they like. They can't fly for instance even if they truly want to do so. Also - to do total justice to the subject we'd have to revisit the idea of the "bondage of the will" in detail. I doubt that you have in mind that we do that here.)

Of the before mentioned strains of believers mentioned above - I self identify directly as neither.

Having said that - I generally see things more from the so called Calvinistic perspective than the so called Arminian perspective.

I have never taken that verse to mean anything other than how the "Free Will" people see it.

There are other verses that show me that there must be some kind of grace that draws me to the Lord in order for me to believe. But not this one.

Also I know of no Calvinist or anyone of that general point of view who would say that people believe "because they are saved". All, even the most hard core 5-pointers, say that one must believe "to be saved".

In fact (we've talked about this before) I've been around Calvinists for some 35 years or so now (I was a teaching elder in the Presbyterian church for many years) and you're the absolute first person who says that one must be saved in order to believe and or that one is saved before they believe.

Solution? Jesus defines righteousness as love for God and people including enemies. Isaiah and Paul say none are righteous, not one. So everybody hates God and worships idols instead, even calling them by his name. So unless God saves a person through the New Birth, they cannot believe in the true Christ or desire a holy life.

 

[zoidar]

Free will = trusting in your faith to save you. The focus should be trusting in Christ to save you.

I don't agree that free will is trusting in your faith to save you. Yes, focus should be in Christ.

 

[Dave L]

I don't agree. Yes, focus should be in Christ.

Free will trust in your willingness to believe thinking it triggers God to save you.