For those wondering what "macroevolution" actually is...

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The IbanezerScrooge

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so according to that logic- variations of dogs (speciations)+time = non dog. but its more logical to conclude that variations of dogs+time= a variation of dog.

That's correct. Even if a line of dogs evolved their forelimbs into wings and became flying bat-like creatures, they would still be canines. They would never be bats. Even if a line of dogs evolved to be fully aquatic and looked and behaved like dolphins, they would still be canines. They would never be dolphins.

It seems to me that the more important point in this is not whether we would or wouldn't consider the new creatures to be a variation of dog or a new species of bat, but that we could still tell the difference. We would know which the new winged arf was more closely related to.
 
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SLP

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Guy Threepwood

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so according to that logic- variations of dogs (speciations)+time = non dog. but its more logical to conclude that variations of dogs+time= a variation of dog.

Hello all- please excuse my jumping in here, but the skeptic's side seems a little under represented!

I agree with Xianghua.. variations of dogs giving us only more variations of dogs, and variations of bacteria giving us only more bacteria.. speculation aside, this is what is actually directly scientifically observable, thus far, is it not? Adaptation within a limited range.

So out of curiosity; what is the evidence for these barriers having been broken, by processes not observed to be able to do so?
 
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Speedwell

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Hello all- please excuse my jumping in here, but the skeptic's side seems a little under represented!

I agree with Xianghua.. variations of dogs giving us only more variations of dogs, and variations of bacteria giving us only more bacteria.. speculation aside, this is what is actually directly scientifically observable, thus far, is it not? Adaptation within a limited range.

So out of curiosity; what is the evidence for these barriers having been broken, by processes not observed to be able to do so?
You'd have to tell us where they are first and creationists don't seem to be able to do that. All that is required for macroevolution is repeated speciation--which has been observed.
 
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Guy Threepwood

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You'd have to tell us where they are first and creationists don't seem to be able to do that. All that is required for macroevolution is repeated speciation--which has been observed.


If you take a dead cat, what exactly are all the barriers that stop you bringing it back to life? Pretty hard to nail down even today. But we have known that barriers existed for millennia.

The barrier to demonstrating the claim; that a single celled bacteria-like organism can adapt into human beings through random mutation, remains at bacteria adapting into anything else but bacteria- that's a pretty large gap to fill- but we are not at a complete loss, we are gaining some understanding of the nature of the barriers in both cases I would submit to you..
 
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pitabread

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what is the evidence for these barriers having been broken

What barriers? Creationists claim there are limits on evolutionary change, but they've never demonstrated what those are.

The barrier to demonstrating the claim; that a single celled bacteria-like organism can adapt into human beings through random mutation, remains at bacteria adapting into anything else but bacteria- that's a pretty large gap to fill- but we are not at a complete loss, we are gaining some understanding of the nature of the barriers in both cases I would submit to you..

Single-celled organisms didn't go from single-celled organisms to humans in one shot. You're skipping about 4 billion years of evolution and biodiversity in between.
 
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Guy Threepwood

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What barriers? Creationists claim there are limits on evolutionary change, but they've never demonstrated what those are.

I think it's fair to say that not just creationists, but all skeptics of Darwinism, including secular, see limitations on evolutionary change occurring through processes of random/natural variation- the limits vary by species as do their ranges of variation. Just as one car model may have more optional extras than another- but barriers appear to lie somewhere in the hierarchy of each design.

Single-celled organisms didn't go from single-celled organisms to humans in one shot. You're skipping about 4 billion years of evolution and biodiversity in between.

Well exactly, there are a vast number of intermediate steps required to get from one to the other, right? yet under lab conditions, were still stuck on step #1- so I meant that in terms of empirically demonstrating the process- the barrier is still stuck at the starting gate..
 
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Speedwell

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I think it's fair to say that not just creationists, but all skeptics of Darwinism, including secular, see limitations on evolutionary change occurring through processes of random/natural variation- the limits vary by species as do their ranges of variation. Just as one car model may have more optional extras than another- but barriers appear to lie somewhere in the hierarchy of each design.
Can you tell us the cause of these limitations? Once speciation occurs, there are no observable limitation to the further speciation of the resulting populations.



Well exactly, there are a vast number of intermediate steps required to get from one to the other, right? yet under lab conditions, were still stuck on step #1- so I meant that in terms of empirically demonstrating the process- the barrier is still stuck at the starting gate..
Can you gve us a citation for these experiments, where it was attempted to evolve multicellular organisms from single-celled organisms, but failed?
 
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pitabread

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I think it's fair to say that not just creationists, but all skeptics of Darwinism, including secular, see limitations on evolutionary change occurring through processes of random/natural variation- the limits vary by species as do their ranges of variation.

What limits though? You haven't explained what they are.

Well exactly, there are a vast number of intermediate steps required to get from one to the other, right? yet under lab conditions, were still stuck on step #1- so I meant that in terms of empirically demonstrating the process- the barrier is still stuck at the starting gate..

Laboratory experiments represent a minuscule fraction both in time and scope relative to the evolution of the entirety of life on Earth. Dismissing the entirety of the evolution on this planet by claiming that scientists cannot recreate everything in a lab is just ridiculous.

And yet even under such relative constraint, scientists have still experimented with things like the evolution of multicellularity (see here for example: Experimental evolution of multicellularity).

So no, scientists are definitely not stuck at anything. Just limited in what they can directly experiment with given practical constraints of time and space.
 
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Guy Threepwood

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Can you tell us the cause of these limitations? Once speciation occurs, there are no observable limitation to the further speciation of the resulting populations.

The hierarchical structure of any information system, including and especially digital ones like DNA

This forum software allows for adaptation yes?, you can tweak parameters for text size , shape and color. Just as we can tweak control genes for the size shape and color of dogs.
But you understand why you can never create a new feature, far less a new software application, by randomly tweaking the text parameters- it's not just a matter of how long you have, or how lucky you are- , the more definitive problem is that you are not accessing the proper part of the hierarchy.

A more crude example of the principle would be a radio- it comes with a capacity to adapt by tuning the dials in different environments, but a trillion years of tuning will never create a CD player

The hard wiring of the radio to constrain adaptation within a limited and viable range, is represented in DNA by the gene regulatory network- i.e. from this perspective adaptation is a design feature, not a design mechanism

Can you gve us a citation for these experiments, where it was attempted to evolve multicellular organisms from single-celled organisms, but failed?

slightly different question.. you can arguably get multi-cellular bacteria- with a loose definition of multi-cellular - but still bacteria, doing what bacteria do, not the same multi-cellular structure as complex life
 
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Lobster Johnson

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Hello all- please excuse my jumping in here, but the skeptic's side seems a little under represented!

I agree with Xianghua.. variations of dogs giving us only more variations of dogs, and variations of bacteria giving us only more bacteria.. speculation aside, this is what is actually directly scientifically observable, thus far, is it not? Adaptation within a limited range.

So out of curiosity; what is the evidence for these barriers having been broken, by processes not observed to be able to do so?

I agree with that as well. It is of course totally consistent with evolution, not a problem with it.

It's worth pointing out that 'bacteria' is a fairly expansive category of life. About as broad as 'plant' or 'fish'. Dismissing cases of bacteria giving rise to variations of bacteria would be like dismissing, for example, a rodent-like species for giving rise to a chimpanzee-like species as 'just mammals giving us more mammals.'

By that same token, humans are a variation of ape. No 'barrier' was breached when one variety of ape gave rise to a later variety, i.e. humans. No barrier was breached when earlier mammalian life-forms gave rise to the first ape - after all, apes are just a variety of mammal.

That 'barriers' between species are never 'broken' - this is what you'd expect from evolution. You never escape your ancestry. You never leave your past categories. It would be physically, biologically impossible for something to give rise to something else that was not a variation of the original.

It would take a miracle.
 
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Guy Threepwood

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What limits though? You haven't explained what they are.

^not sure I did a good job but I tried to answer this above


Laboratory experiments represent a minuscule fraction both in time and scope relative to the evolution of the entirety of life on Earth. Dismissing the entirety of the evolution on this planet by claiming that scientists cannot recreate everything in a lab is just ridiculous.

And yet even under such relative constraint, scientists have still experimented with things like the evolution of multicellularity (see here for example: Experimental evolution of multicellularity).

So no, scientists are definitely not stuck at anything. Just limited in what they can directly experiment with given practical constraints of time and space.

That is a good point, and I do appreciate that, I agree with those constraints

However I think cryptozoologists also have a good point when I ask for empirical evidence of Sasquatch: the north woods are mind mindbogglingly vast, & we have only searched a minuscule fraction of them.

i.e. I'm not using the lack of direct evidence to dismiss the theory of evolution or Sasquatch, but like most people, I question whether the evidence is really as objectively 'overwhelming' as is often claimed by believers of each. If not direct observable evidence, what is it that strikes you as convincing?
 
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Guy Threepwood

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I agree with that as well. It is of course totally consistent with evolution, not a problem with it.

It's worth pointing out that 'bacteria' is a fairly expansive category of life. About as broad as 'plant' or 'fish'. Dismissing cases of bacteria giving rise to variations of bacteria would be like dismissing, for example, a rodent-like species for giving rise to a chimpanzee-like species as 'just mammals giving us more mammals.'

By that same token, humans are a variation of ape. No 'barrier' was breached when one variety of ape gave rise to a later variety, i.e. humans. No barrier was breached when earlier mammalian life-forms gave rise to the first ape - after all, apes are just a variety of mammal.

That 'barriers' between species are never 'broken' - this is what you'd expect from evolution. You never escape your ancestry. You never leave your past categories. It would be physically, biologically impossible for something to give rise to something else that was not a variation of the original.

It would take a miracle.

I take your point, though I think I'd take the same line as Xianghua- if our common ancestor is a bacteria, would you characterize yourself as a bacteria? It's a semantic question obviously- but wouldn't all distinction break down at that point?

Labels and semantics aside, objectively, we have a lot of features bacteria don't; eyes and ears and lungs and the capacity to amuse ourselves pondering them! i.e. it's not just that we represent a different configuration of a bacteria's possible variations, but that we have a vast range of emergent 'new' properties that they don't- by what process did these features emerge, do you think?
 
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pitabread

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^not sure I did a good job but I tried to answer this above

Do you mean post #30? Arguments via analogy don't work. Living organisms are not artificially manufactured creations like radios or internet forums. Radios and internet forums don't naturally reproduce and evolve.

If not direct observable evidence, what is it that strikes you as convincing?

It's the collective sum of all evidence from various lines including genetics, fossils, biogeography, developmental biology, as well as observable evolution both from laboratory experiments and observations in nature. And yes, fossils, genetics, biogeography, etc, are all directly observable evidence.

Plus, there is the fact that evolution including common ancestry has real-world applications in various fields particularly due to the rise of genomics. The latter is especially compelling to me, because is evolution was as false as creationists say it is, the first place we'd be hearing about that would be from industry.
 
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Guy Threepwood

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Do you mean post #30? Arguments via analogy don't work. Living organisms are not artificially manufactured creations like radios or internet forums. Radios and internet forums don't naturally reproduce and evolve.

No- they are nowhere near that sophisticated yet

The machine code of the genes is uncannily computerlike. Apart from differences in jargon, the pages of a molecular-biology journal might be interchanged with those of a computer-engineering journal

If there is one objective measure of anything, it is mathematics and that's what we are dealing with


It's the collective sum of all evidence from various lines including genetics, fossils, biogeography, developmental biology, as well as observable evolution both from laboratory experiments and observations in nature. And yes, fossils, genetics, biogeography, etc, are all directly observable evidence.

I feel the same way

I agree there is no single slam-dunk argument either way, it's about the weight of evidence from all lines.
I personally think that together they increasingly point away from Darwinism, so apparently it's a matter of perspective.. but it's a fascinating question, life, is there any more interesting subject?

Plus, there is the fact that evolution including common ancestry has real-world applications in various fields particularly due to the rise of genomics. The latter is especially compelling to me, because is evolution was as false as creationists say it is, the first place we'd be hearing about that would be from industry.

Darwinism had some very unfortunate 'real-world applications' according to many eugenics projects conducted worldwide over the last century :(, I certainly don't want to tar all, or even most believers in ToE with that brush.. but it has not all been positive
 
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Lobster Johnson

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I take your point, though I think I'd take the same line as Xianghua- if our common ancestor is a bacteria, would you characterize yourself as a bacteria?

As I responded to him: yes... for a given value of 'bacteria.'

Such terms encompass much more than what we, in the casual everyday colloquial sense, realize they do.

In the same principle that I would characterize myself biologically as whatever I am descended from, I am: an ape, a primate, a mammal, a chordate, an animal, a eukaryote. I am all of these things at once.

Oh, also a human.

It's a semantic question obviously- but wouldn't all distinction break down at that point?

No, because that's not the only distinction we make.

If we refered to everything from grass, redwoods, dandelions, and pineapples as just 'plants', things might get tricky. But we have all those other names for them besides just 'plants' to rely on to differentiate.


Labels and semantics aside, objectively, we have a lot of features bacteria don't; eyes and ears and lungs and the capacity to amuse ourselves pondering them! i.e. it's not just that we represent a different configuration of a bacteria's possible variations, but that we have a vast range of emergent 'new' properties that they don't- by what process did these features emerge, do you think?

Welp... I'm not a biologist by any stretch, not especially well read on the topic, so this is just my idle speculation. But all of those attributes you mentioned are related to organs (eyes, ears, lungs, brains) and organs are essentially, broadly speaking, clusters of specialized cells.

So I think that at some point in the history of life, once multi-celluar life began to develop, different portions of multi-celluar lifeforms began to specialize at different functions, giving rise to the first primitive organs. Generalized cells became more specialized. Natural selection would have applied to these lifeforms. Lifeforms developing the best and most efficient sets of organs would thrive while less effective lifeforms would succumb and go extinct. Millimetric development, very simplified and primitive, but it would be a start.

Incidentally this would also answer a frequent creation question, namely why you don't see complex modern lifeforms like we humans suddenely developing brand new organs and features if that's what our ancient ancestors did - we are the result of like a billion years of evolution that rendered us more and more specialized. Earlier lifeforms were like lumps of clay, unformed and simple but full of morphological potential. Modern lifeforms are capable of so much more, but we're carrying around the baggage of hundreds of millions of years of evolutionary specialization.

Modern creatures no longer have mushy clusters of generalized cells, but highly developed and refined organs. Some elements of them can be changed or adapted, but entirely new functions emerging spontaneously is probably beyond biological possibility. So it's variation from here on out - we're not going to be sprouting extra pairs of arms or anything.
 
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pitabread

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The machine code of the genes is uncannily computerlike. Apart from differences in jargon, the pages of a molecular-biology journal might be interchanged with those of a computer-engineering journal

DNA is not computer code; it's bio-chemistry. Often times analogies are used for the purpose of explaining concepts, but it doesn't mean they are the same thing.

At any rate, you still haven't explained what the barriers are for evolution in biology. That was the whole start of this discussion, but it seems it's drifting away with no resolution to that.

Darwinism had some very unfortunate 'real-world applications' according to many eugenics projects conducted worldwide over the last century :(, I certainly don't want to tar all, or even most believers in ToE with that brush.. but it has not all been positive

I don't know what "Darwinism" is supposed to mean; regardless, eugenics as tied to misguided notions of racial supremacy is not an application of evolution.

Regardless, that's not all what I am referring to. I am talking about things like pathogen tracking, identification and annotation of functional regions of genomes, etc. Things where evolution has direct, real-world application and those applications are a positive thing.
 
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Speedwell

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I agree there is no single slam-dunk argument either way, it's about the weight of evidence from all lines.
I personally think that together they increasingly point away from Darwinism, so apparently it's a matter of perspective.. but it's a fascinating question, life, is there any more interesting subject?
What "either way?" If you think the evidence is pointing away from the theory of evolution, what's it pointing toward? Right now the TOE is the only credible explanation for the biological diversity we see around us. If you dismiss it as being only weakly supported you are left with no explanation at all.
 
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sesquiterpene

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No

The machine code of the genes is uncannily computerlike. Apart from differences in jargon, the pages of a molecular-biology journal might be interchanged with those of a computer-engineering journal
You are taking your analogy to truly absurd levels. Can you give an example of how you can translate a computer -engineering article into a molecular biology article? I would suggest that you can't learn anything at all about living organisms by reading computer engineering articles.
 
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Guy Threepwood

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As I responded to him: yes... for a given value of 'bacteria.'

[]

Welp... I'm not a biologist by any stretch, not especially well read on the topic, so this is just my idle speculation. But all of those attributes you mentioned are related to organs (eyes, ears, lungs, brains) and organs are essentially, broadly speaking, clusters of specialized cells.

.

Thanks for the detailed response- I think we agree on a lot here (but what fun is that!? :) )

except I think on the processes driving change, to the question in the OP, I'm not a biologist either, but many do make a fundamental distinction between the natural and superficial variation we see within a species, between dogs, sheep, our own family.. and the more fundamental changes and new developments in body plans- we cant necessary extrapolate one smoothly into the other-
 
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