Argument from truth

Sapiens

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I've heard some good stuff from Craig, but this was frankly disappointing. He assumes that without belief in "ultimate purpose", life becomes meaningless, yet here I am, an unbeliever with a life full of meaning. Yes, I believe we will all die and nothing will "ultimately" matter, but I don't understand how a smart guy like Craig figures can conclude that means nothing means anything to anyone now. It's kind of like saying there's no point in having fun today, because that fun won't last forever so you might as well kill yourself.

Also, what's the deal with implying that people who don't believe in objective morality will turn into shoplifters? It's simply not true. If anything, my sense of moral obligation has only gotten stronger after losing faith.

Since I have no fear of punishment in the afterlife, and no hope of reward in the afterlife, my focus, my search for meaning and morality, and my desire to change the world for the better, is in the here and now.

I think he's got it exactly backwards - if death is NOT the end, then it's life NOW that's essentially meaningless. It's just a precursor for eternity, it has no real value in and of itself. And morality too just becomes a question of reward and punishment in the afterlife, rather than doing the right thing because it's, well, the right thing.

Hmm. I think it's you who's misunderstanding the idea. I'm not sure I can add anything more, because I will repeat myself. But you're dead wrong my friend.

Your meaning is illusory, so is that of others, on your view. But ignorance is bliss. You went back into the matrix, just like Cypher.

Without objective morality, it doesn't matter what you do. Shoplift or not. There is nothing right in itself. Why do you think consequences and intrinsic value of moral actions are mutually exclusive? I believe in both.

Did you say "for the better"?!?! That implies ought! And it is a forbidden concept! Have you forgotten? ;)
There is no better or worse. There just is.

What you do now determines your eternity. Nothing futile in that! I try to win souls for Christ because of eternity! Your very soul my friend.
 
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Tinker Grey

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Your meaning is illusory, so is that of others, on your view. But ignorance is bliss. You went back into the matrix, just like Cypher.
My meaning is no more illusory than yours. You attribute your meaning, without justification, to a higher power. Also, you presume that there can be any meaning other than what we assign for ourselves.

There never was a matrix.

(Isn't argument by assertion fun?)
Without objective morality, it doesn't matter what you do. Shoplift or not. There is nothing right in itself. Why do you think consequences and intrinsic value of moral actions are mutually exclusive? I believe in both.
Of course, it matters. It matters to those to whom I do those actions. That is enough. It also matters to me and it matters to me what others think of me. It is enough.

What you do now determines your eternity. Nothing futile in that! I try to win souls for Christ because of eternity! Your very soul my friend.
Mere assertions. There is no soul.
 
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zippy2006

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What does it mean to have a "relativizing effect"? Based on what I've heard from folks who say there are some things that shouldn't be joked about, they seem to think that if I make light of a dark subject sometimes, then I'll treat it lighter all the time. I disagree. Is that what you're saying?

Perhaps that is part of it. I guess I am saying that jokes make light of things, and thus if everything is an appropriate object of humor then everything is 'light,' if that makes sense. In that way it levels and relativizes things, making them all equally light (at least for the duration of the joke).

Hell as an example is surprising. I suppose that would still fit the criteria, that we're always supposed to feel a certain way about Hell, and making light of it might make it seem less negative than it really is. But I gotta say, my Hell jokes are on the cleaner side of most of my jokes. I have at least one that I could post on these forums in the Clean Christian Jokes section and get a bunch of "funny" ratings. What does it mean to joke about the "possibility" of Hell? A joke, as we've discussed, is an accepted fiction, isn't it always sort of hypothetical in that regard? I'd almost like to give you an example so that you can dissect it for me, but if that's the sort of topic that bothers you, it wouldn't have the effect I want my jokes to have.

I tried to be precise, "A joke that accepts the existence of eternal damnation and then attempts to make light of it would be a problematic kind of humor..." Some hypotheticals are too contrary to truth to be entertainable or funny. Supposing you actually think such a place exists, there is nothing 'light' about Hell. Not only is it an inappropriate form of humor, it also isn't funny. No one would find it funny. Jokes about Hell that are funny have a different angle, and are usually at the same time implying the non-existence of Hell.

In some ways, I think bad things becoming humorous is a good thing. There are some jokes that are only funny now because we know that they're bad, whereas a while back it would have been a perfectly fine thing to say. Some things, like racism, folks think should always be treated seriously. I think it should be laughed at because it's so ridiculous. It shouldn't even be entertained as a serious position to take any more than being a flat-earther.

I agree, and in such a case the leveling effect has a socially advantageous outcome. At the same time, facetiously impersonating a racist person is a joke without an evil/bad object. I therefore don't know that I would call it "bad."

David Cross did a bit a long time ago about growing up Jewish in the south. He told a story about spending a night at a friend's house. The next morning the kid's mother was asking David what he could eat for breakfast. She said to him, in a thick southern drawl, "I just don't know that much about y'alls peoples. I mean, I know that the world's money supply is controlled by seven Jew bankers from a bunker at the center of the Earth, but does y'alls eat oatmeal?" That's a joke about racism, it's treating a heavy subject lightly, but I think it's good to associate those ridiculous sorts of thoughts with laughter. Not because it's no big deal, but because it's absurd.

Right, I agree. I love humbling humor - humor that undercuts an issue or person with inflated importance. I've been rushing replies (and I am also rushing this one) so maybe I'm not explaining myself very well.

I sometimes tell jokes that make light of Christianity, and people, even folks who aren't religious at all, respond to them like they're dark humor. It's still considered a taboo topic even if folks don't ascribe to the religion at all. When I get a groan from one of those jokes, I like to say, "What? I think God has a sense of humor..." And before I finish my sentence, I clutch my chest and gasp for air like I'm having a heart attack.

lol. I also tell jokes that make light of Christianity, but probably to better effect since I am publicly known as a religious person. In any case, I don't mind groans at times because some people just need to lighten up. :D

But it is much easier to get someone to laugh at their own beliefs if they know you aren't being aggressive.

Humor is the greatest thing on Earth. It's an almost instant, always readily available, source of joy that can be shared between anyone. And it's free! What's not to love?

Ha, I do like humor, but I try not to worship it. :p

Stephen Colbert is a genius. He's still good on The Late Show. But it's nothing compared to The Colbert Report. I get that he has to mass market his material now, but it's kind of a shame. I should have guessed you liked him, since you're both Catholic.

Yeah, I loved him on The Report.
 
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Sapiens

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I'm just curious. Do you think that God knows all Truth through experience, or mere observation. For example, would God really know what it's like to rape someone in the experiential sense?

He knows exactly what it's like yes. He knows what it feels like to be human in every way. That is what I think. I don't think it's just propositional knowledge, even if that too. He is utterly disgusted I am sure by the evil we do, and he says in the Bible that is why we cannot even be in his presence. The way I see it, it's like perfect empathy.
 
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Sapiens

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I think it's only when you accept the "futility" of life that you become truly free to enjoy it. If you knew you were going to live forever, why bother trying to make a difference today? Why bother trying to make the most of it? It's only in the face of death that you will truly appreciate life.
I disagree wholeheartedly. Life is valuable in and of itself.
 
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Moral Orel

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I'm no connoisseur of Hell jokes. Go ahead and tell yours.

(I will be out of town for a few days, so a delayed response doesn't necessarily imply scandal :D)
Okay. I'd really like to understand where you're coming from before I respond to the rest of your post, so I was hoping for an example to dissect. The context from that will help me digest the rest of your post, I think.

So a fella dies and goes to Hell. When he gets there he finds that it's an ocean of manure. Millions of people standing waste deep in it, holding a cup and saucer, drinking coffee. The stench of the place knocks him back at first, but then thinks, this isn't all that bad. It's unpleasant, but it certainly what he had feared. A demon comes along, hands him his coffee and guides him to his position in the filth with his pitchfork. He's standing there, sipping his coffee, trying not to wretch for about five minutes when a loud voice is heard echoing through the chamber, "Alright, coffee break is over! Back on your heads!"

I have others, much more distasteful though. I think they all follow the same trend though: "Oh, Hell isn't so bad... No wait it's way worse than I thought in some ironic way!". You said that it's okay to joke about Hell as if it's hypothetical, but these jokes seem more like you could assume Hell is real or not, it isn't pertinent to the joke being funny.
 
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holo

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P1 & P2. You are contradicting yourself. It can or will be better? You can't make tomorrow better any more than the past, on determinism.
Sure you can, if you're predestined to do so.

(I don't use "predestined" in the sense that we're ruled by fate, only that whatever happens is the result of what happened before.)

Free will means we are the cause, not that we have received 0 influenced.
Any cause is itself the effect of a previous cause. Truly free will would mean that you could make choices without them being influenced, in other words determined, by anything.

Coming back to morality, how do you know your moral intuition should be denied?
Morality tends to evolve, and as far as I can tell it usually goes in a more inclusive direction. The more we know, the less racist we become, for example.

P4. Ok. That's not worth much to me honestly. My opinion is that you're wrong.
So it's a matter of opinion, not objective fact.

P5. You are delusional then. That's my point. You are deceived.
What makes you think I'm deceived?

Last paragraph. There is no truth without God. That's my whole thread.
Of course there is, just like there's truth without Allah or Santa Claus.
 
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holo

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I don't want to start another thread on this, but would you mind naming some of those reasons? I'm curious.
I believed first and foremost because I was brought up in a Christian family. So from childhood I saw and interpreted everything through that lens. Like when something good happened after we'd prayed, we would attribute it to God. If things didn't work out, it was because we didn't pray enough, or believe enough, or the devil was too strong, or it just wasn't God's will, or it was just a mystery and we'd go "meh". I had a lot of very emotional experiences during prayer and worship, which I would also of course attribute to God and/or the Holy Spirit. I had a drug problem for a while and experienced a powerful transformation when I had sort of a Lutheresque experience (suddenly moving out of a legalistic relation to God, into one that was all about grace).
 
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holo

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Your meaning is illusory, so is that of others, on your view. But ignorance is bliss. You went back into the matrix, just like Cypher.
Meaning is very real. I just don't think there exists some meaning independently of the human mind. Just like love wouldn't exist if there were no person to give or receive it.

And if there is some objective meaning, I wouldn't know how to find out what it was. But to my own surprise, I'm doing just fine, better even, without clinging to some sort of ultimate purpose.

Without objective morality, it doesn't matter what you do. Shoplift or not.
Of course it matters. It matters to people here and now (and in the future, even). It just doesn't matter when the universe collapses on itself or however this world will end.

Things matter to us, that's just a fact. I just don't think it matters to some god. It's not like I don't bother trying to be a good husband just because we'll both die eventually anyway.

There is nothing right in itself. Why do you think consequences and intrinsic value of moral actions are mutually exclusive? I believe in both.
Not sure what you mean by that.

Did you say "for the better"?!?! That implies ought! And it is a forbidden concept! Have you forgotten? ;)
There is no better or worse. There just is.
Haha, yeah I see the paradox there.

I of course have a sense of thing being better or worse, but I find that thinking "there is no should" and "everything is perfect" is, well, a better way to relate to reality. I find a lot of wisdom in seemingly paradoxical ideas from Buddhism. A major one is practicing acceptance, to just sit with whatever feeling you have or situation you're in, simply letting things be as they are without judging or fighting it. It's often mistaken for resignation, but in fact it helps us react more wisely to whatever seems to be wrong. It's a way to have peace in the middle of turmoil. It's possible to be comfortable with discomfort. Does that make sense?

Another idea that's been very valuable to me is that seeking happiness doesn't make us happy. At best, it'll give us fleeting moments of happiness, but it never lasts, and the pursuit of happiness ironically tends to stress us out. I've never been happier than when I stopped chasing happiness. I've never felt more peace since I began accepting that life is full of strife and unrest. I've never felt more hopeful since I gave up hoping and started just being.

What you do now determines your eternity. Nothing futile in that! I try to win souls for Christ because of eternity! Your very soul my friend.
Yes that's true. If Christianity is true then there will be punishment or reward after death. But I don't believe Christianity is the truth, so I only have this life.
 
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holo

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I disagree wholeheartedly. Life is valuable in and of itself.
I agree, but it's like this. Let's say there were no humans on Earth, but all the gold was still here. Would it be worth anything? Not in and of itself, right? Value is assigned, not inherent. And people basically agree that life is valuable.
 
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Sapiens

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But if you'll only do good things if you're rewarded, then you're only really looking out for number one (you).

You're not listening to me.

Ah... You're still calling it a "purpose", so I disagree. I'll agree that there's an objectively best way to be happy. But that isn't the "purpose". If our purpose was to know God and be in fellowship with Him, then that's what we would be doing. Or God made a mistake when He made us, and we're bad at the thing we were created to do.

If God exists, then there is a purpose. That purpose is to know God. Only then can we be fulfilled as a human being. But since you seem to be too wise to allow God to know better. I will not insist.

We were made to love him, but we don't have to. Let's keep the free will for another thread please. I'd love to know your view but I feel overwhelmed already by the present discussion.
 
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Moral Orel

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You're not listening to me.
I am. You said that you do good because God commands it. But that doesn't change what you said before:
It is true I know now that my actions will matter to others but once I'm gone I won't care. No reward of punishment for my good or bad lifestyle.
But if we all die, then no personal identity is ever retained. Combined with the absence of objective purpose and value provided by God, it is very arguable that one should care at all about others, or anything at all in fact.
It seems like the only reason you would ultimately care that you did what God asked, is if He lets you into Heaven for doing it. What if God is real, His objective morality is real, but when you die, you're dust. Why would you do what He wants you to do if you eventually won't care?
If God exists, then there is a purpose. That purpose is to know God. Only then can we be fulfilled as a human being. But since you seem to be too wise to allow God to know better. I will not insist.
Let's say I build a car. This car, like all cars, has the purpose of transporting people and things from one place to another quickly and efficiently. But my car that I built doesn't start. I'm bad at making cars, aren't I?
 
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zippy2006

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Okay. I'd really like to understand where you're coming from before I respond to the rest of your post, so I was hoping for an example to dissect. The context from that will help me digest the rest of your post, I think.

So a fella dies and goes to Hell. When he gets there he finds that it's an ocean of manure. Millions of people standing waste deep in it, holding a cup and saucer, drinking coffee. The stench of the place knocks him back at first, but then thinks, this isn't all that bad. It's unpleasant, but it certainly what he had feared. A demon comes along, hands him his coffee and guides him to his position in the filth with his pitchfork. He's standing there, sipping his coffee, trying not to wretch for about five minutes when a loud voice is heard echoing through the chamber, "Alright, coffee break is over! Back on your heads!"

I have others, much more distasteful though. I think they all follow the same trend though: "Oh, Hell isn't so bad... No wait it's way worse than I thought in some ironic way!". You said that it's okay to joke about Hell as if it's hypothetical, but these jokes seem more like you could assume Hell is real or not, it isn't pertinent to the joke being funny.

Right, that is a different angle. The humor comes from the mistaken perception on the part of the newcomer to Hell. As you say, it doesn't really hinge on the existence of Hell.

I wouldn't say that such a joke makes light of Hell, even though that could be a tangential effect. My general point was that some subjects are heavy, and are therefore inappropriate for humor because humor makes things light. Hell is a "heavy subject" that came readily to mind, but not every Hell joke would be inappropriate.

My more general point is that some things just aren't light. They may not be "heavy" in the way that Hell or rape are heavy. For example: nobility, sanctity, solemnity, nuptial joy, etc. Jokes obscure and do violence to those realities, too. It's hard to give a categorical example since humor is so malleable and subtle. You could make good jokes about Hell, or nobility, or sanctity, etc., and yet if someone does something that is really noble it shouldn't be the subject of a joke. If you are attending a ceremony and John Doe is accepting the medal of honor it isn't the appropriate time for a joke. A joke at that time would detract from the honor and nobility of the occasion. The same holds, mutatis mutandis with respect to the humor-nobility relation in general.
 
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Moral Orel

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Perhaps that is part of it. I guess I am saying that jokes make light of things, and thus if everything is an appropriate object of humor then everything is 'light,' if that makes sense. In that way it levels and relativizes things, making them all equally light (at least for the duration of the joke).
I guess I just don't see a problem as long as the lightness ends when the joke does (or at least when the laughter dies down).
I agree, and in such a case the leveling effect has a socially advantageous outcome. At the same time, facetiously impersonating a racist person is a joke without an evil/bad object. I therefore don't know that I would call it "bad."
Aren't racist people the evil/bad object? I'm mocking and belittling racists for being stupid, and mocking/belittling is supposed to be wrong. But it's justified because they are bad people, right? Is it different if I were to mock a racist to his face? Because I let that attitude of being mean to mean people spill over to a lot of areas other than racism. Remember my whole spiel about being emotionally manipulative.
Right, that is a different angle. The humor comes from the mistaken perception on the part of the newcomer to Hell. As you say, it doesn't really hinge on the existence of Hell.

I wouldn't say that such a joke makes light of Hell, even though that could be a tangential effect. My general point was that some subjects are heavy, and are therefore inappropriate for humor because humor makes things light. Hell is a "heavy subject" that came readily to mind, but not every Hell joke would be inappropriate.

My more general point is that some things just aren't light. They may not be "heavy" in the way that Hell or rape are heavy. For example: nobility, sanctity, solemnity, nuptial joy, etc. Jokes obscure and do violence to those realities, too. It's hard to give a categorical example since humor is so malleable and subtle. You could make good jokes about Hell, or nobility, or sanctity, etc., and yet if someone does something that is really noble it shouldn't be the subject of a joke. If you are attending a ceremony and John Doe is accepting the medal of honor it isn't the appropriate time for a joke. A joke at that time would detract from the honor and nobility of the occasion. The same holds, mutatis mutandis with respect to the humor-nobility relation in general.
Meh... I think that even in a situation like that it would still be tasteful to make some jokes about what a great guy he is to be receiving a medal. Not in a sarcastic way as if he doesn't deserve it, but making up some exaggerated good-guy stories to go along with whatever he did to earn a medal. Not in every situation, of course. Sometimes people want to feel what they feel and they don't want other people affecting that even with the best of intentions.
 
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zippy2006

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I guess I just don't see a problem as long as the lightness ends when the joke does (or at least when the laughter dies down).

Then you are assuming that it is right and proper to make every subject light, so long as it is only done in a temporary way. That strikes me as a difficult thesis to defend.

Aren't racist people the evil/bad object? I'm mocking and belittling racists for being stupid, and mocking/belittling is supposed to be wrong. But it's justified because they are bad people, right? Is it different if I were to mock a racist to his face? Because I let that attitude of being mean to mean people spill over to a lot of areas other than racism. Remember my whole spiel about being emotionally manipulative.

It is justified because they are stupid people (to use the word you chose). I envisioned such a joke as being about an 'anonymous racist person,' as most jokes like that are. I don't personally see a problem with calling out the irrationality of racism via humor.

Meh... I think that even in a situation like that it would still be tasteful to make some jokes about what a great guy he is to be receiving a medal. Not in a sarcastic way as if he doesn't deserve it, but making up some exaggerated good-guy stories to go along with whatever he did to earn a medal. Not in every situation, of course. Sometimes people want to feel what they feel and they don't want other people affecting that even with the best of intentions.

If you make up those stories you detract from the honor and nobility of the actions which deserve the medal, even if only subtly, so humor does still detract. The lightness of humor is incompatible with the solemnity of honoring someone's heroic actions. As above, perhaps you are of the opinion that there exists no such occasion that oughtn't be detracted from (even in a small way). I wouldn't agree.
 
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Moral Orel

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Then you are assuming that it is right and proper to make every subject light, so long as it is only done in a temporary way. That strikes me as a difficult thesis to defend.
I can't see the harm, you'll have to show it to me. I can't declare there is no harm, I don't know everything... just most things :p

I know that humor brings people joy, and unless I know of a way that it can cause harm, it's a good thing to spread that joy. I could tell just clean/safe jokes, but then there are less jokes and less joy.
It is justified because they are stupid people (to use the word you chose). I envisioned such a joke as being about an 'anonymous racist person,' as most jokes like that are. I don't personally see a problem with calling out the irrationality of racism via humor.
And if calling out the irrationality of racism via humor to a racist makes him feel embarrassed to be a racist, that's fine, right?
If you make up those stories you detract from the honor and nobility of the actions which deserve the medal, even if only subtly, so humor does still detract. The lightness of humor is incompatible with the solemnity of honoring someone's heroic actions. As above, perhaps you are of the opinion that there exists no such occasion that oughtn't be detracted from (even in a small way). I wouldn't agree.
I'd rephrase it as, there is no type of occasion that should never be detracted from with humor. There are some occasions that shouldn't be detracted from, but only because of the audience and how they would feel about humor. If that fella being honored in your scenario likes those jokes and is happy to have heard them, then no harm no foul. I'd go so far to say that if the honored fella likes them, and the audience doesn't, then it was still good to tell the jokes because it's his party.
 
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zippy2006

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I can't see the harm, you'll have to show it to me. I can't declare there is no harm, I don't know everything... just most things :p

The harm that I am speaking of only relates to a distortion of reality and leading people into false beliefs and impressions.

And if calling out the irrationality of racism via humor to a racist makes him feel embarrassed to be a racist, that's fine, right?

Yes, perhaps. There are too many variables to give a simple answer, but it could be fine.

I'd rephrase it as, there is no type of occasion that should never be detracted from with humor. There are some occasions that shouldn't be detracted from, but only because of the audience and how they would feel about humor.

Sure, that's what I meant. I wasn't talking about audiences.

If that fella being honored in your scenario likes those jokes and is happy to have heard them, then no harm no foul.

It would still detract from his honor. Perhaps he doesn't mind it being detracted from, but it would still detract.

Since you believe that there is no type of occasion that oughtn't be detracted from (or leveled, or made light), it would seem that humor really is your highest value, so to speak. Put differently, you do not believe in any reality that is higher than humor.
 
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