The Loaded Question (Philippians 2:13)

[Grip Docility]

What exactly is perfection, when grace is necessary to be righteous?

A perfect human being Other than God incarnate is about as righteous as a perfect 1st degree murder.

 

[Grip Docility]

My works? See Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5.

His work? See John 6:44, 2 Timothy 2:25, John 16:8, Romans 12:3.

Our works? See Philippians 2:12-13, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:22-23.

Justification/Sanctification? See 1 Corinthians 1:30.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

As the newborn man, the new creature, is gendered from God's seed, (1 John 3:9), there is nothing to regret.

So, you believe in the Wesleyan doctrine of Entire Sanctification?

 

[Phil W]

When He was Crucified, our Flesh was stripped from our soul.

I would need to see a verse or two to see where you are coming from. Especially tthe "soul" part.

When He laid in the tomb, it is our flesh, dead in the Tomb.

Yes, as Romans 6:4-6 makes clear.

His resurrection is He, (as a promise of our Eternal Hope in Him... and His Holy Spirit that seals us to salvation), dwelling within us (Ephesians 1:13 ; Romans 8:9)
He ascended as/to the right Hand (Strength) Of His Father. And... as Philippians 3:7-10 says... is our very Righteousness.

"His resurrection is He...dwelling within us."
Not sure I can agree with that.
As it is the gift of the Holy Spirit/Ghost (that is promised us for our repentance form sin and baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins, Acts 2:38), that dwells in us...the resurrection of Jesus doesn't dwell in us.
I'm not really following you there.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Let's replace "sinless perfection" with "complete obedience to God".
Perhaps that will be more palatable for those monitoring the site.
I teach complete obedience to God.

So, to teach complete obedience to God, you have to be totally obedient without one single fault yourself. This means not only the sins you are conscious of (which is the core of the doctrine of Entire Sanctification which limits it to just conscious sins), but the sins we do that we are not conscious of.

So, are you totally and completely obedient at all times, consciously or not consciously?

 

[Phil W]

What exactly is perfection, when grace is necessary to be righteous?

It is the manifestation of the grace of God on earth now.

 

[Grip Docility]

So, you believe in the Wesleyan doctrine of Entire Sanctification?

I believe Jesus. John 6:28-29 ; John 3:16 ; John 6:63 ; John 5:24 ; John 11:25

 

[def]

Oh for the ... goodness...

We all are Sola Fide and agree we have to respond to the Gospel with Belief.

Obey = Believe

Romans 10:8-10
Philippians 3:7-10

Obey does not equal believe, if that is what you are saying. Paul went to great length to explain the relationships between believe and obey. I use an input-process-output structure to show the relationships.
Romans 10:8-10
Input (believe in your heart) -> Process (accept God raised Jesus from the dead) -> unto (onto the next stage) righteousness.
Input (confess Jesus is Lord, do whatever the Lord says) -> Process (obey the righteousness of God) -> unto salvation.

John teaches the similar two stage process.

John 11:25-26
I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die.
Notice that 'believe' occurs twice and that is because the there are two separate things to believe. And it is only the second that one never die.

In short, we must be mindful of the part that is being taught. James is prominent in teaching part 2, confess Jesus is Lord, obeying the Lord with faith. Paul describes this working faith as the faith of Christ. Thus, in addition to being justified by faith in the gospel, we are also justified by the faith of Christ, and the latter faith can be a gift, a spiritual gift of the Holy Spirit indwelling in a believer.

 

[Phil W]

So, to teach complete obedience to God, you have to be totally obedient without one single fault yourself. This means not only the sins you are conscious of (which is the core of the doctrine of Entire Sanctification which limits it to just conscious sins), but the sins we do that we are not conscious of.

James writes..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15)
How can a sin be accidental or unknown when it first requires temptation, lust, enticement, and conception?

So, are you totally and completely obedient at all times, consciously or not consciously?

Yes.
Isn't that why Christ came?
To free us from service to sin? (John 8:32-34)
He made it possible to walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh. To be reborn of Godly seed.
God's seed cannot bear wicked fruit. (1 John 3:9)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I believe Jesus. John 6:28-29 ; John 3:16 ; John 6:63 ; John 5:24 ; John 11:25

So. let me get this straight. You are totally sinless and have no regrets because you have no failings or shortcomings, right?

 

[def]

I believe Jesus. John 6:28-29 ; John 3:16 ; John 6:63 ; John 5:24 ; John 11:25

Again truncating the essential, the whole concept is in John 11:25-26.

 

[Phil W]

So, you believe in the Wesleyan doctrine of Entire Sanctification?

I have studied J Wesley at length, and even he doesn't really believe it.
But I do believe "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Heb 10:10)
That was a 'one-and-done' event, and it's gracious effects should be seen in all lovers of Christ.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

James writes..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15)
How can a sin be accidental or unknown when it first requires temptation, lust, enticement, and conception?


Yes.
Isn't that why Christ came?
To free us from service to sin? (John 8:32-34)
He made it possible to walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh. To be reborn of Godly seed.
God's seed cannot bear wicked fruit. (1 John 3:9)

How can you reconcile 1 Jon 1:8 with your claim of sinlessness?
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us".

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I have studied J Wesley at length, and even he doesn't really believe it.
But I do believe "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Heb 10:10)
That was a 'one-and-done' event, and it's gracious effects should be seen in all lovers of Christ.

I know that Justification and sanctification are linked because that is what God's Word teaches. But is entire sanctification a one-time event? So what happens when you sin? Do you have to be sanctified all over again? That means that you are being entirely sanctified multiple times! How does that work?

 

[def]

James writes..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15)
How can a sin be accidental or unknown when it first requires temptation, lust, enticement, and conception?


Yes.
Isn't that why Christ came?
To free us from service to sin? (John 8:32-34)
He made it possible to walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh. To be reborn of Godly seed.
God's seed cannot bear wicked fruit. (1 John 3:9)

Read 1 John 3:8, and you will find that verse 9 refers to the Son of God, who is without sin.

 

[Grip Docility]

So. let me get this straight. You are totally sinless and have no regrets because you have no failings or shortcomings, right?

Say what!?! Are you serious!! Lol

1 John 1:8

Sinless? I’m with Hitler!

This is my OP! My works are Skubala!

It is by Him, Alone!

 

[Phil W]

So. let me get this straight. You are totally sinless and have no regrets because you have no failings or shortcomings, right?

How can you reconcile 1 Jon 1:8 with your claim of sinlessness?
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us".

Good question...
John is writing to a church, about two kinds of men.
Those who walk in the light, and those who walk in the darkness.
Those who walk in the light have had ALL their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ. They CAN say they have no sin.
Those who walk in darkness cannot say they have no sin, because they do continue to commit sin.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Read 1 John 2:8, and you will find that verse 9 refers to the Son of God, who is without sin.

If a person says that they are totally without sin, and therefore totally obedient to every command of Christ, then I can say to that person "God declares to you that you are deceived and the truth is not in you". This is quite serious because brings up the question as to whether such a person is truly saved, because if the truth not in them, then it may mean that they don't have the Holy Spirit which resides only in a genuinely saved believer.

And if the person actually teaches full obedience to others, he is teaching deception to them, and Jesus said that if anyone offends a fellow believer and leads them astray, it would be better if they had a rock around their neck and drowned in the sea, and so it would be better if they had never been born!

I am not saying these things, but just passing on what God's Word says.
So, these are pretty serious issues here.

 

[Grip Docility]

Obey does not equal believe, if that is what you are saying. Paul went to great length to explain the relationships between believe and obey. I use an input-process-output structure to show the relationships.
Romans 10:8-10
Input (believe in your heart) -> Process (accept God raised Jesus from the dead) -> unto (onto the next stage) righteousness.
Input (confess Jesus is Lord, do whatever the Lord says) -> Process (obey the righteousness of God) -> unto salvation.

John teaches the similar two stage process.

John 11:25-26
I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die.
Notice that 'believe' occurs twice and that is because the there are two separate things to believe. And it is only the second that one never die.

In short, we must be mindful of the part that is being taught. James is prominent in teaching part 2, confess Jesus is Lord, obeying the Lord with faith. Paul describes this working faith as the faith of Christ. Thus, in addition to being justified by faith in the gospel, we are also justified by the faith of Christ, and the latter faith can be a gift, a spiritual gift of the Holy Spirit indwelling in a believer.

Oh for Pete’s sake! I’m saying our response to the Gospel in Yes or no is all we have! The rest is all His!

Try to be a peace maker and everyone gets all crazy!!!!

 

[Phil W]

Read 1 John 2:8, and you will find that verse 9 refers to the Son of God, who is without sin.

I think you mis-labeled your verse.?