Is Salvation not good enough?

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Grip Docility

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One of the central tenants of the Protestant Reformation was total depravity. It seems that concept is being rejected.

Jesus literally said this.. (Matthew 7:11) and it's no wonder those words still anger people to this day... People seem to hate the idea that they are the darkness God illuminates, and without His light, we would be seen as the darkness we are.

Jesus forever blasted the Carnally Righteous... and encouraged those that were truthful about their Sin.

It seems almost surreal that this very narrative is playing out to this very day.
 
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To Everybody Reading This Thread:

In John 6: What did Jesus mean by his words of eating his flesh, and drinking His blood mean (Which caused the many disciples to stop following Him in John 6:66)?

These are indeed spiritual words (John 6:63). Drinking Christ's blood would involve having faith in His blood (Romans 3:25) (Justification), and eating His flesh is doing God's will (John 4:34) (Sanctification). For Jesus says in John 4, that he has meat that his disciples did not know about. Jesus said His meat is to do the will of the Father.

This lines up with:
For if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7) (Also see Hebrews 5:9).

Also, everlasting life is in a person named Jesus Christ.

For He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).

For God alone possesses immortality (1 Timothy 6:16).

So we must abide in Christ (who is the source of our eternal life) in order to have life or salvation.
We can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments (See: 1 John 2:3). However, the person who says they know the Lord, and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (See: 1 John 2:4).

The Bible talks about how we need to abide in Christ and bring forth fruit.

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. " (John 15:6).​

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).​

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him,
being abominable, and disobedient,
and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).​

It's also not just about doing some good works, either.
The believers who did wonderful works were told by Jesus to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin), as well.

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:
depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:23).​

Jesus did not tell them to depart from Him because they did not trust in His finished work, and they should not have worried about sin so much in their life.
 
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Grip Docility

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To Everybody Reading This Thread:

In John 6: What did Jesus mean by his words of eating his flesh, and drinking His blood mean (Which caused the many disciples to stop following Him in John 6:66)?

These are indeed spiritual words (John 6:63). Drinking Christ's blood would involve having faith in His blood (Romans 3:25) (Justification), and eating His flesh is doing God's will (John 4:34) (Sanctification). For Jesus says in John 4, that he has meat that his disciples did not know about. Jesus said His meat is to do the will of the Father.

This lines up with:
For if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7) (Also see Hebrews 5:9).

Also, everlasting life is in a person named Jesus Christ.

For He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).

For God alone possesses immortality (1 Timothy 6:16).

So we must abide in Christ (who is the source of our eternal life) in order to have life or salvation.
We can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments (See: 1 John 2:3). However, the person who says they know the Lord, and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (See: 1 John 2:4).

John 4:34 is Jesus saying that is His work. The commandments of God are to Love Him and our Neighbor.

By tying up heavy burdens of the Law of Sin on peoples backs, thy neighbor is being Hated. People can say they are saying one thing, then say another. This is why people are called duplicitous that are weak in faith. It's either Jesus saves, or a person Saves themselves. No in-between.

I have and always will proclaim.. To God Alone, be the Glory.
 
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So just to be clear to all...I am happy for Catholics that they are Catholics.

I just struggle with some of them who are not equally happy for me and my parents but keep insisting to pray that my parents will come to the fullness of truth.

What’s wrong with that prayer? I pray that for myself and my family all the time. It seems like your making this out to be a bigger deal than it actually is. I think everyone should pray this prayer.
 
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I'd have an easier time believing that if you didn't misrepresent it so badly.
In what way have I misrepresented it?

If I have misrepresented it, I will certainly correct it right away.
 
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If I didn't understand the way of salvation preached in the Roman Catholic church I might agree with you.

But I do and I don't.

So long as Rome teaches that understanding and participating in those higher truths is necessary for salvation - you are completely wrong.

The Roman Church was excommunicated from the Catholic Church in 1054AD. Their councils and doctrines created after their excommunication do not reflect the teachings of the Catholic Church as they have been rejected by the Church.
 
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To Everyone Reading This Thread:

Did Paul struggle with sin as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24?

No. In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience), and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24. How so? Here are 8 reasons that should make this fact clear.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).​


Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).


Source used for a small paragraph within this post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
 
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His student

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The Church existed for two centuries, not several centuries, without an officially canonized set of NT scriptures, but that doesn’t mean that what was later to become the officially canonized NT wasn’t recognized by a substantial amount of the Church body.
I agree.
 
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Grip Docility

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To Everyone Reading This Thread:

Did Paul struggle with sin as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24?

No. In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience), and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24. How so? Here are 8 reasons that should make this fact clear.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​
What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).​
Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).


Source used for a small paragraph within this post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25

2 Peter 3:16

Romans 4:15
Romans 10:3
Hebrews 4:16
Galatians 6:2
1 Peter 4:8
2 Peter 2:20
Galatians 3
Ephesians 2
 
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BNR32FAN

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2 Peter 3:16

Romans 4:15
Romans 10:3
Hebrews 4:16
Galatians 6:2
1 Peter 4:8
2 Peter 2:20
Galatians 3
Ephesians 2

There’s a difference between trying to to be justified by works as Paul is discussing in Romans 4 and devoting yourself to serving God as he stated in Romans 6

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭ROMANS‬ ‭6:15-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This has to do with willful intentional sin not stumbling in sin by ignorance, unintentionally, or by weakness.
 
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Grip Docility

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There’s a difference between trying to to be justified by works as Paul is discussing in Romans 4 and devoting yourself to serving God as he stated in Romans 6

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭ROMANS‬ ‭6:15-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This has to do with willful intentional sin not stumbling in sin by ignorance, unintentionally, or by weakness.

BNR32FAN,

I speak as plainly as I speak, not to exalt sin, or suggest that we should glorify sin as a thing to rejoice in... but because I know, out of a vast number of experiences and discussions with many people, that we all fall short, day after day.

Some days, may be "Omission" based.
Other days, may be "Commission" based.

My point is that the Serving God part has to do with reassuring people of His complete work and looking after the needs of those in need, His followers and even the needs of the entire world.

Our "Gospel Commission" is truly to Love, Heal, Guide, Provide, Look after and be there for a hurting world that Truly needs Jesus.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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To Everyone Reading This Thread:

Is Jesus saying that no believer can live righteously in Matthew 7:11 because He calls those He is talking to as evil?

First, on the Sermon on the Mount, in Matthew 5:1, it says,

"And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:" (Matthew 5:1).

In Matthew 7:11, I believe Jesus was referring to the multitude and not His disciples.

For Jesus says in another place.

"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? " (John 6:70).

Jesus also says,
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John 10:27).

His disciples obviously followed Jesus.
So they were sheep and not goats or evil men.

The disciples are not of the world (Which is why the world hates them).

"I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." (John 17:14).

Peter distinguishes between those who lived sinfully of the world versus believers.

3 "For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you" (1 Peter 4:3-4).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

Jesus said to the Jews,
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. " (John 8:44).

" He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."
(John 8:47).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

Second, the whole point of Matthew 7 is how sin can separate you from God or the Lord.
Jesus says in Matthew 7:23 that the believers who did good works were told to depart from Him because they worked iniquity. Iniquity is sin. Jesus did not know them because they worked iniquity. For he that says they know the Lord and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4).

In Matthew 7:26-27 is about how if we do not do what Jesus says, we are like a fool who built his house upon the sand, when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

Jesus also says that a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and vise versa.
So one is a good tree by bringing forth only good fruit or good deeds.
One is a bad tree if they are bringing forth bad fruit or bad deeds of some kind.


Conclusion:

In Matthew 7:11, Jesus is referring to the multitudes and not His disciples when He refers to them as evil.
 
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His student

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The Roman Church was excommunicated from the Catholic Church in 1054AD. Their councils and doctrines created after their excommunication do not reflect the teachings of the Catholic Church as they have been rejected by the Church.
We have been talking specifically about the Roman church and not the Eastern arm which is differentiated from the Western or Roman arm. ChicanaRose made that very clear early on.
am a former Catholic convert (went through RCIA and left several years later) so I still have connections to people from the Church.
It is debatable whether Orthodoxy is the true representative of "Jesus' one Church" - the subject that chilehed and I are discussing. But, as for the Roman branch, there is no doubt in my mind that it is not.

I suspect that you agree with me since you point proudly to it being "excommunicated from the Catholic church in 1054AD".

But since you brought the subject up, and made it such a point to call your church the "Catholic Church" - I don't believe yours is either. That's not to say that many people in your group are not part of the true Church. Undoubtedly there are many in the East who have believed on Christ's work as their only hope of salvation and rejected the idea that church ritual has any part in their salvation in the basic sense. But they are saved in spite of an affiliation with Orthodoxy and or Romanism and not because of it or through it.

But - please - there are threads about that subject and this is not one of them. You can debate the subject of Orthodox vs. various Protestant vs. R.C. belief systems of salvation and worship there if you wish.
 
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Grip Docility

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To Everyone Reading This Thread:

Is Jesus saying that no believer can live righteously in Matthew 7:11 because He calls those He is talking to as evil?

First, on the Sermon on the Mount, in Matthew 5:1, it says,

"And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:" (Matthew 5:1).

I believe Jesus was referring to the multitude and not His disciples.

For Jesus says in another place.

"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? " (John 6:70).

Jesus also says,
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John 10:27).

His disciples obviously followed Jesus.
So they were sheep and not goats or evil men.

The disciples are not of the world (Which is why the world hates them).

"I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." (John 17:14).

Peter distinguishes between those who lived sinfully of the world versus believers.

3 "For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you" (1 Peter 4:3-4).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

Jesus said to the Jews,
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. " (John 8:44).

" He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."
(John 8:47).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

Second, the whole point of Matthew 7 is how sin can separate you from God or the Lord.
Jesus says in Matthew 7:23 that the believers who did good works were told to depart from Him because they worked iniquity. Iniquity is sin. Jesus did not know them because they worked iniquity. For he that says they know the Lord and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4).

In Matthew 7:26-27 is about how if we do not do what Jesus says, we are like a fool who built his house upon the sand, when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

Jesus also says that a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and vise versa.
So one is a good tree by bringing forth only good fruit or good deeds.
One is a bad tree if they are bringing forth bad fruit or bad deeds of some kind.

To Jason,

If you don't understand that Righteousness is the Covering of God (Galatians 3:27 ; 1 Peter 3:11 ; 1 Peter 3:21)... I fear you will present this to Him (Isaiah 64:6)
 
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His student

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To Jason,
If you don't understand that Righteousness is the Covering of God (Galatians 3:27 ; 1 Peter 3:11)... I fear you will present this to Him (Isaiah 64:6)
I agree.
To Everyone Reading This Thread:.................
Jason - why hijack this thread when there are a dozen or more in the Forum with your pet agenda, some of which you may have started? :scratch:
 
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thecolorsblend

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One of the central tenants of the Protestant Reformation was total depravity. It seems that concept is being rejected.
Or, as with so many things with Protestantism, nobody agrees on what it means. When a lot of Protestants say “total depravity”, they don’t mean “total” and they don’t mean “depravity”.
 
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ChicanaRose

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What’s wrong with that prayer? I pray that for myself and my family all the time. It seems like your making this out to be a bigger deal than it actually is. I think everyone should pray this prayer.

Please see my OP. By fullness of truth, they mean "through the Catholic church."
 
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Grip Docility

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Or, as with so many things with Protestantism, nobody agrees on what it means. When a lot of Protestants say “total depravity”, they don’t mean “total” and they don’t mean “depravity”.

I said it before and I'll say it again. I'm neither Protestant nor Roman Catholic.

I do not believe that God created man Disabled to do Good. I believe God created man endowed with the ability to "do good" and "do evil".

We see that Adam and Eve could choose right or wrong. What changed? Adam and Eve were led to do wrong by Satan, and fell from grace. Did they lose the ability to choose right from wrong? No!

What changed? Consequences for doing wrong were put into play. Consequences of choosing the wrong master were put into play.

For me, Total Depravity means... We all have been given the ability to choose the right, over the wrong... but well over 20,000,000,000 people plus, over the course of human history, responded to "privation", by "Missing the mark".

Only One Man/God has ever and will ever "Not Miss the Mark".

Did "Privation" exist before Satan Deceived Eve? NO!

Did Satan ensure Privation existed after Satan Deceived Eve? Yes!

For me, Depravity is the fact that when the Creation is compared to the Creator... there is simply no comparison. One is Good and the other is Evil. One is SELFLESS while the other is SELFISH.

That's my opinion on the matter.
 
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chilehed

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In what way have I misrepresented it?

If I have misrepresented it, I will certainly correct it right away.
You said:
So long as Rome teaches that understanding and participating in those higher truths is necessary for salvation
The Catholic Church explicitely rejects that idea: study the Catechism paragraphs 836 through 848.
CCC - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

In fact, that's a false teaching of many Protestant denominations.
 
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