Antinomianism and you

[klutedavid]

So, how much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Yes HTacianas, that is precisely what the text is saying!

Apostasy is the ultimate sin, deny Jesus and die.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To draw back is to not believe in Jesus anymore.

That is exactly what the Hebrews were doing, returning to the law after having known the truth.

So you hold to the Free Will Baptist type belief?
You believe that the only way to lose salvation is to stop believing in Jesus or to reject Him and yet sin cannot separate you from GOD?

 

[klutedavid]

The context of a person rejecting Christ does not change what is written in Hebrews 10:26.
For notice how you did not explain how Hebrews 10:26 does not mean what it plainly says.

Your not reading verse 26 in the intended context.

You don't undergo the wrath of God because you have your eye on your neighbor's oxen.

You receive the full wrath of God for rejecting His Son, is there any greater sin?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes HTacianas, that is precisely what the text is saying!

Apostasy is the ultimate sin, deny Jesus and die.

Right, but what about 1 John 3:15?
It says that if any man hates his brother, they are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them.

Do you believe it is possible for a saved believer to stumble temporarily into hating their brother? If so, the Bible says they have no eternal life abiding in them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your not reading verse 26 in the intended context.

You don't undergo the wrath of God because you have your eye on your neighbor's oxen.

You receive the full wrath of God for rejecting His Son, is there any greater sin?

But if you were to skip back to Hebrews 3 it says that a person's heart can become hard by the deceitfulness of sin, whereby they can then depart from the living God. So sin can harden the heart and make a person to reject the Lord (apostasy). So other kinds of sins can contribute to a person rejecting the Lord.

 

[klutedavid]

So you hold to the Free Will Baptist type belief?
You believe that the only way to lose salvation is to stop believing in Jesus or to reject Him and yet sin cannot separate you from GOD?

We all sin Jason.

That is the problem that Jesus solved once and for all.

Salvation is fully available in and only in Jesus Christ. There is no other name given to us, no other package deal that God offers.

Everyone sins and there is not much you can do about that. Jesus came to save the lost, the broken, the sick, Jesus did not arrive to save the righteous.

You need to confess Jason!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Right, but what about 1 John 3:15?
It says that if any man hates his brother, they are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them.

Do you believe it is possible for a saved believer to stumble temporarily into hating their brother? If so, the Bible says they have no eternal life abiding in them.

Also, why would Jesus give us new teachings in the gospels, just so that they would not longer apply to our lives? It makes no sense. Why would Jesus warn us about looking upon a woman in lust and being cast into hell fire if that was not really something that applies to us today? (See Matthew 5:28-30). To me: That is really risky to say that such a strong warning involving salvation does not apply anymore. Especially when we see other similar teachings by His followers (like with 1 John 3:15).

 

[klutedavid]

But if you were to skip back to Hebrews 3 it says that a person's heart can become hard by the deceitfulness of sin, whereby they can then depart from the living God. So sin can harden the heart and make a person to reject the Lord (apostasy). So other kinds of sins can contribute to a person rejecting the Lord.

If they stay in Christ nothing can touch them, nothing will separate us from the love of God.

Focus not on sin but focus on your salvation in the Christ. You are already completely saved in Jesus Christ, now rejoice in that. Paul repeats this instruction; so I say again Jason, rejoice always.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We all sin Jason.

That is the problem that Jesus solved once and for all.

Salvation is fully available in and only in Jesus Christ. There is no other name given to us, no other package deal that God offers.

Everyone sins and there is not much you can do about that. Jesus came to save the lost, the broken, the sick, Jesus did not arrive to save the righteous.

You need to confess Jason!

I have already accepted Jesus as my Savior and I believe in Him for salvation. I do not believe Jesus died for future sin because Jude 1:4 says that there are those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality. Peter warns against false prophets who cannot cease from sin (See 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If they stay in Christ nothing can touch them, nothing will separate us from the love of God.

Focus not on sin but focus on your salvation in the Christ. You are already completely saved in Jesus Christ, now rejoice in that. Paul repeats this instruction; so I say again Jason, rejoice always.

That's not how it works.

The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

Note: This obedience is after we are saved by God's grace through faith.

 

[HTacianas]

Yes HTacianas, that is precisely what the text is saying!

Apostasy is the ultimate sin, deny Jesus and die.

That doesn't deal with apostasy. It mentions only willful sin, i.e., mortal sin. Hebrews 6 describes the fate of an apostate.

 

[klutedavid]

Also, why would Jesus give us new teachings in the gospels, just so that they would not longer apply to our lives? It makes no sense. Why would Jesus warn us about looking upon a woman in lust and being cast into hell fire if that was not really something that applies to us today? (See Matthew 5:28-30). To me: That is really risky to say that such a strong warning involving salvation does not apply anymore. Especially when we see other similar teachings by His followers (like with 1 John 3:15).

Simply because our salvation is a gift granted to us in Jesus Christ.

If our salvation depended on our ability to stop sinning, then you know that permutation.

All have sinned and fallen way short, all continue to sin and not even God can stop them. Anyone who does not have the personal integrity to admit their continuous sinful ways, then they cannot be forgiven. Own up, admit what you are and let God take care of the rest, that is His concern.

People do what they do Jason and there is nothing we can do about it. I am utterly convinced that I have no hope whatsoever without that reconciliation He has given to us.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Simply because our salvation is a gift granted to us in Jesus Christ.

If our salvation depended on our ability to stop sinning, then you know that permutation.

All have sinned and fallen way short, all continue to sin and not even God can stop them. Anyone who does not have the personal integrity to admit their continuous sinful ways, then they cannot be forgiven. Own up, admit what you are and let God take care of the rest, that is His concern.

People do what they do Jason and there is nothing we can do about it. I am utterly convinced that I have no hope whatsoever without that reconciliation He has given to us.

That really does not explain 1 John 3:15.
You have to either ignore it or change it in order to make your Soteriology work.

 

[klutedavid]

That doesn't deal with apostasy. It mentions only willful sin, i.e., mortal sin. Hebrews 6 describes the fate of an apostate.

The whole letter is written to stop the Hebrews from committing apostasy.

The Hebrews were slipping back under the law, that is why the letter was written, to try and stop them.

As I said before, there is only one sin that leads to death.

 

[klutedavid]

That really does not explain 1 John 3:15.
You have to either ignore it or change it in order to make your Soteriology work.

Christ gave us the Holy Spirit, the fruit of the Holy Spirit develops in us over time. Anyone who hates their brother is suppressing the fruit and living by the flesh. This means of course that they are not really trusting in Jesus.

Think about it, if I have problems with people am I really concentrating on eternal life in heaven. Or am I really fixated on affairs here on earth, the here and now?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Christ gave us the Holy Spirit, the fruit of the Holy Spirit develops in us over time. Anyone who hates their brother is suppressing the fruit and living by the flesh. This means of course that they are not really trusting in Jesus.

Think about it, if I have problems with people am I really concentrating on eternal life in heaven. Or am I really fixated on affairs here on earth, the here and now?

That's not really an explanation on what 1 John 3:15 says.

 

[HTacianas]

The whole letter is written to stop the Hebrews from committing apostasy.

The Hebrews were slipping back under the law, that is why the letter was written, to try and stop them.

As I said before, there is only one sin that leads to death.

What you are telling me simply doesn't make sense. I agree that the letter to the Hebrews was written in part to address those who had reverted back to the law for salvation, but that is not the meaning of Hebrews 10. The meaning of Hebrews 10 is quite simply what its plain reading is.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@klutedavid

Believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ). It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are not ultimately saved by works of righteousness we have done alone without God's mercy (Titus 3:5). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5). But make no mistake, Scripture is also abundantly clear in that it teaches we are saved by "works of faith" after we are saved by God's grace, too. Simply click on the following spoiler button to check out the verses.

Spoiler

After we are saved by God's grace,

God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

There are five things (as a whole) in the Bible that people are not getting when they read Paul, and thus they easily misunderstand him in justifying a false "sin and still be saved" or "Belief Alone" type gospel (Which is no doubt appealing because it means that a person does not have to change their life all that much and they can live for themselves instead of the Lord). But Jesus says, "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? (Luke 6:46) (NHEB).

Here are the 5 things (as a whole) in Scripture that your average
Christian does not understand when they read Paul:

#1. The Bible teaches that there is a change of the Law (Hebrews 7:12); So when Paul talks about the "Law" (generically), he is referring to the Torah, i.e. the Old Law (or the many laws given to Moses and Israel) and not the commandments given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers (i.e. the New Law or New Testament Law).

#2. Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

#3. The Bible speaks against the "False Pharisee Religion" that Paul used to be part of (Which taught: "Law Alone Salvationism" or "Works Alone Salvationism" without God's grace, i.e. Jesus Christ) (See Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42, Luke 18:9-14). Hence, why Paul said we are saved by God's grace through faith and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and that we are not saved by works of righteousness that we have done but we are saved by his mercy (Titus 3:5).

#4. The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

#5. The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

 

[mark kennedy]

That's correct.

The law leads you to Christ and cannot condemn you in Christ. The whole purpose of the law was to pronounce the death sentence, the law quickens the flesh and increases transgression.

Tell a child not to do something and you effectively guarantee that the child will do that, behind your back of course.

That is why the teachers of the law, the Pharisees were so powerfully self righteous.

That is why Paul the Pharisee was destroying the infant church, a legalist.

That is why politicians, those that generate law have a much higher prosecution rate. Than the general public, the legalists can't help themselves when it comes to breaking the law.

The law points the finger at you and nothing more.

Very true, but the fault.was never in the Law. In James and elsewhere there is the argument that the requirements of the Law. 'Thou shall not commit adultry, steal...etc. is summed up love your neighbor as yourself.

We have to be mindfull ofboth the fact that salvation is by grace through faith apart fr p m works of the Law, and the Law bears witness to the righteousness of God.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant, replaced by the New. Believers are now under the Two Great Commandments of love for God and people. And only use the Ten for commentary and instruction. But by living in harmony with the Two Great Commandments, we naturally keep the moral aspects of the Ten without trying.

Dave we have been over this numerous times. The 2 "new" commandments are in the Torah... Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18