The Free Will of Pharaoh--- Exodus---Did he have a choice?

[Rick Otto]

Perhaps you misunderstood me friend. I said God first gives us the ability then we must choose to exercise that ability.

I can agree with that, but the choice for me was instantaneous reflex. I was so excited I wanted to tell my dad, but one look at him and the situation I was in, I realized I had to contain myself.
Self control is a gift of the Holy Spirit, isn't it?

The thinking about and wrestling with choosing to follow through on my first response came a little later.

 

[Rick Otto]

Maybe a little twist on this. If a man wants to do something sinful, and God prevents it, is his free will violated?

"Violated" would indicate a breach of sovereignty, but that sovereignty is limited, so I rather would say his freedom was diminished, restricted, etc., but not violated.

 

[Hammster]

"Violated" would indicate a breach of sovereignty, but that sovereignty is limited, so I rather would say his freedom was diminished, restricted, etc., but not violated.

What’s the difference?

 

[BNR32FAN]

If Peter did not fail to abide then who is an example do we have of a branch thrown in fire in verse 6?

Judas?


All I’m doing is expanding the context of the text. Jesus confirms the 11 will endure.

If we want to fully expand the context then we go back to chapter 13 and continue through chapter 17.

It’s poor exegesis even to isolate 10 verses and boldly proclaim Jesus is teaching loss of salvation of branches which do produce fruit and then stop. In fact in every case in those 10 verses we have branches that fail to produce any fruit.

I don’t think there are any examples of actual people failing to abide given in the scriptures but Jesus’ message still remains. I don’t see any examples of drunkards or adulterers in the scriptures who lost their salvation but Paul’s message is clear that such people will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Judas was not a believer according to John 6:64 and he had been stealing money from the treasury so he was not a branch in Christ.

Verse 11 does not confirm they will abide and endure otherwise Jesus would not have told them “remain in Me and I in you as (since) the branch is not able to bear fruit of itself so neither can you unless you remain in Me”. This statement is a commandment which would be pointless if Jesus was assuring them that they would abide and produce fruit in verse 11. Verse 11 Jesus is saying I have told you this so that my joy in you can remain (provided they do abide). What your suggesting is that Jesus is saying their joy will undoubtedly remain which would make His reason for telling them this irrelevant. There’s no reason to tell them to remain if they are incapable of failing to remain.

I stopped at verse 10 because that is the bulk of the message. Your free to produce any scriptures you want to support your position and do I need to show the hundreds of times you post single verses when making your point?

God is patient with us and doesn’t cut off the branch immediately but gives us ample time to produce fruit as we can see in Luke 13:6-9.

“And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[Rick Otto]

Again where did you explain block logic and how it applies to the text? Really I may have missed the post.

I think he actually did a pretty good job of it, except he condemns it where I see it simply as a tool where results are based on intent. Sure, like the modern state of Israel, the devil may have done all the hard work, but God will use it for good anyway.

 

[Rick Otto]

What’s the difference?

What's the difference between reaching the limit of his freedom and having his exercise of his freedom "violated"?

He never had any freedom that wasn't given by God.
So prevention of sin by God is a gift of providence, not a violation of an imagined freedom.

 

[Hammster]

What's the difference between reaching the limit of his freedom and having his exercise of his freedom "violated"?

He never had any freedom that wasn't given by God.
So prevention of sin by God is a gift of providence, not a violation of an imagined freedom.

Gotcha. I wondering what the free will folks will think.

 

[Rick Otto]

That would be “divine schizophrenia.”

I don't see sovereign vs permissive to be the case. I see that as a false duality.
What I see is that what sin happens has been foreknown before creation, so it isn't two wills at all. It's more a case of enough error (the profane) is permitted to provide conclusive proof of what's perfect (the divine). Sovereigns can permit error and even provide mercy and still remain one sovereign.

 

[Rick Otto]

Gotcha. I wondering what the free will folks will think.

Lord Bunsworthy knows! lol
(He was a character from Ringo Star's Saturday morning kid's show back in the day)

 

[RDKirk]

God dosnt harden Pharaohs heart till Ex. 9:7, before that Pharoah hardens his heart. The Magicians had been duplicating the plagues up untill the plague of flies, then they couldn't admitting it's the hand of the Lord. In xhapter 9 we are not talking flies and frogs, cattle are dying, bear in mind, there was a reason Molech (golden calf) was popular. Now we are getting into his wealth and Pharoah might have relented, vut it was too late, God now hardened pharaohs heart.

Following Jesus' inaugural message, the sermon on the mount, they said he cast out demons by the poiwer of satan. Jesus didn't respond untill late in in ministry telling them they had blasphemed the Holy Spirit and that was unforgiveable. There is a progression, one God predicted and controled.

God gives you what you really want. Ahab stated outright that he didn't want to hear the word of the Lord, so the Lord sent a lying spirit to make sure he didn't--even the real prophet of God relayed the lie to Ahab. But when Jehosophat (who did want to hear the word of the Lord) asked the prophet if that was the truth, the prophet quickly told him, "no."

 

[Rick Otto]

God gives you what you really want. Ahab stated outright that he didn't want to hear the word of the Lord, so the Lord sent a lying spirit to make sure he didn't--even the real prophet of God relayed the lie to Ahab. But when Jehosophat (who did want to hear the word of the Lord) asked the prophet if that was the truth, the prophet quickly told him, "no."

I had to laugh out loud, picturing that happening.

 

[DamianWarS]

I think he actually did a pretty good job of it, except he condemns it where I see it simply as a tool where results are based on intent. Sure, like the modern state of Israel, the devil may have done all the hard work, but God will use it for good anyway.

I didn't mean to condemn block logic if that's what you mean. block logic is simply a way of understanding the scriptures and its perspectives, I think it actually to be quite philosophical it just values and handles information inherently in a different way than western thinking.

Western thinking values the facts that build the truth where Eastern thinking values the truth that builds the facts. To Western thinking, it doesn't matter if truth exists or not what matters is if you can prove it exists and it's only real if you can prove it's real. In Eastern thinking, it doesn't matter if something actually happened or not what matters is that it points and agrees to the truth and if it can do this than it can be called real.

 

[Rick Otto]

I didn't mean to condemn block logic if that's what you mean. block logic is simply a way of understanding the scriptures and its perspectives, I think it actually to be quite philosophical it just values and handles information inherently in a different way than western thinking.

Western thinking values the facts that build the truth where Eastern thinking values the truth that builds the facts. To Western thinking, it doesn't matter if truth exists or not what matters is if you can prove it exists and it's only real if you can prove it's real. In Eastern thinking, it doesn't matter if something actually happened or not what matters is that it points and agrees to the truth and if it can do this than it can be called real.

Excellent clarity, thank you.
They both sound like fun to me.
I'm an artist/musician so I use both.
My dad was a consulting engineer and I got put on the drafting table as a teenager. Had to run away to keep from becoming an architect in The Donor Class.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Scripture describes man as either alive or dead. Sheep or goats. Blind or seeing. Deaf or hearing.

At what stage is man when God gives us this “ability”?

When we are called by hearing the gospel. That’s when the choice is set before us.

 

[mark kennedy]

God gives you what you really want. Ahab stated outright that he didn't want to hear the word of the Lord, so the Lord sent a lying spirit to make sure he didn't--even the real prophet of God relayed the lie to Ahab. But when Jehosophat (who did want to hear the word of the Lord) asked the prophet if that was the truth, the prophet quickly told him, "no."

I remember the passage:

But Jehoshaphat asked, “Is there not still a prophet of the LORD here of whom we can inquire?” The king of Israel answered, “There is still one man who can ask the LORD, but I hate him because he never prophesies anything good for me, but only bad. He is Micaiah son of Imlah.” “The king should not say that!” Jehoshaphat replied. So the king of Israel called one of his officials and said, “Bring Micaiah the son of Imlah at once.” (1 Chron. 19:6-8)
​

Ahab made his children pass through the fire, the pagan sacrifice to Molech that the term Gehenna is based on. Jezebel was his wife who stole a neighboring garden, a family needed, she was thrown from a window and dragged away by dogs. That was the beginning of the prophetic age, ending with the coming of John the Baptist, but that's another story.

 

[Hammster]

When we are called by hearing the gospel. That’s when the choice is set before us.

Maybe you thought you were responding to a different post. I say that because it’s not a response to mine.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I can agree with that, but the choice for me was instantaneous reflex. I was so excited I wanted to tell my dad, but one look at him and the situation I was in, I realized I had to contain myself.
Self control is a gift of the Holy Spirit, isn't it?

The thinking about and wrestling with choosing to follow through on my first response came a little later.

In my case I had heard the gospel many times in my youth and still rebelled against God for many years living a very sinful life. Then I believe God pushed me into a corner of hardship and suffering where the only was out was through Him. He showed me the path thru a new friend and showed me how blessed this person was who served God and I quickly realized that I would receive no blessings in my life as long as I continued to rebel against Him. What I didn’t realize at that time was the hardships I endured and the new friend He sent to me were in fact blessings that would inspire me to repent and devote myself to serving Him. OH PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME FOR REACHING OUT TO A WRETCH LIKE ME AND CALLING ME TO HIS ADOPTION!! AMAZING GRACE INDEED!!

 

[BNR32FAN]

Scripture describes man as either alive or dead. Sheep or goats. Blind or seeing. Deaf or hearing.

At what stage is man when God gives us this “ability”?

When we are called by hearing the gospel.

 

[Hammster]

When we are called by hearing the gospel.

I’m not sure what question you are answering. It certainly isn’t mine.

 

[redleghunter]

you're welcome to read the first post I made regarding the subject and start over. block logic is a way of organizing information in blocks that do not have to agree with each other. It doesn't have to be dualistic but each block is organizing information based on the point it is trying to make so you may get concepts of free will (Pharaoh harden his own heart) and predestination (God hardened Pharaoh's heart) in the same text without these being reconciled. The information is somewhat fluid and can be reorganized in different ways to make a point. For example, the 2 genealogies of Christ show this.

In Exodus 7 God Harden Pharaoh's heart but in Exodus 8 Pharaoh hardens his own heart, then in 9, God hardens his heart, then Pharaoh hardens his own heart and then 10 it's back to God. There is a back and forth tension going on here with who is in control of Pharaoh and even though God wins the text shouldn't be said to champion predestination as it flips between God's will and man's will and it shows them occupying the same space.

I believe chapter 3 is key. In that chapter God tells Moses Egypt was already judged.