The Free Will of Pharaoh--- Exodus---Did he have a choice?

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,879
7,468
Dallas
✟904,394.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Now you’re just jumping all over trying to sew unrelated verses together. How about sticking with with what John 1:13 says first. It’s clear. We are born because of God’s will, not our own.

But your contradicting verse 12.

“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,”
‭‭John 1:12

Let’s examine the Greek definitions of the words received and right.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

received

G2983


G2983


Lemma:

λαμβάνω


Transliteration:

lambánō


Pronounce:

lam-ban'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to take a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it

1) to take up a thing to be carried

2) to take upon one's self b) to take in order to carry away

1) without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away c) to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own

1) to claim, procure, for one's self a) to associate with one's self as companion, attendant

2) of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend

3) to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud

4) to take to one's self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one's self

5) catch at, reach after, strive to obtain

6) to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute) d) to take

1) to admit, receive

2) to receive what is offered

3) not to refuse or reject

4) to receive a person, give him access to one's self, a) to regard any one's power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something e) to take, to choose, select f) to take beginning, to prove anything, to make a trial of, to experience

2) to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back


The definition of the Greek word lambánō does not give any indication that the one who received is given something against his will. The definition means something that is taken or accepted. Now let’s examine the definition of the Greek word for “right or authority”.


But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

power

G1849


G1849


Lemma:

ἐξουσία


Transliteration:

exousía


Pronounce:

ex-oo-see'-ah


Part of Speech:

Noun Feminine


Language:

greek


Description:

1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases a) leave or permission

2) physical and mental power a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises

3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)

4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed) a) universally

1) authority over mankind b) specifically

1) the power of judicial decisions

2) of authority to manage domestic affairs c) metonymically

1) a thing subject to authority or rule a) jurisdiction

2) one who possesses authority a) a ruler, a human magistrate b) the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates d) a sign of the husband's authority over his wife

1) the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself e) the sign of regal authority, a crown

Again those who receive are given the power or liberty of choice. Nothing in this definition indicates the one receiving is becoming a child of God without his own choice or acceptance.

So are you trying to say that verse 13 is saying children of God are not born of God by their own choice after verse 12 just told us they make the choice? Verse 13 is saying they are born not of the desires of blood or man they are born of God’s desire. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 support God’s desire that all men would repent and be saved and is relevant to the discussion as evidence of God’s desire that all should be saved but by man’s own choice he will either stand or fall.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,879
7,468
Dallas
✟904,394.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Now you’re just jumping all over trying to sew unrelated verses together. How about sticking with with what John 1:13 says first. It’s clear. We are born because of God’s will, not our own.

The term “God’s will” does not always mean something God has decreed or made to be true. It can also mean something God desires or wants.

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

will

G2307


G2307


Lemma:

θέλημα


Transliteration:

thélēma


Pronounce:

thel'-ay-mah


Part of Speech:

Noun Neuter


Language:

greek


Description:

1) what one wishes or has determined shall be done a) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ b) of what God wishes to be done by us

1) commands, precepts

2) will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure


Grammar:

from the prolonged form of θέλω; a determination (properly, the thing), i.e. (actively) choice (specially, purpose, decree; abstractly, volition) or (passively) inclination:-- desire, pleasure, will.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,879
7,468
Dallas
✟904,394.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You like reinventing the wheel?

Lol what’s the point of studying the Bible if you let someone else tell you what it means? The very reason I began studying the Bible is because I was sick and tired of people telling me what it says. There’s too many conflicting opinions. The only way to know for sure is to study it for yourself.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,938
25,358
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,749,117.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Of course it does, and I do not contend it is anything other then a secondary choice. But the sinner does choose to receive him right, I mean it is linked to having the right to be children of God. Does it not?
Yes, the born again sinner makes a free will choice.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mark kennedy
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,879
7,468
Dallas
✟904,394.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You like reinventing the wheel?

John Calvin was the one who reinvented the wheel 1500 years after it was already invented by men specifically chosen by God. Did the apostles chosen by Jesus fail in their task to establish the churches? Did Jesus’ plan to establish churches fail to preach His message correctly until John Calvin finally came along 1500 years later?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: mark kennedy
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,364
61
Indianapolis, IN
✟572,130.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Yes, the born again sinner makes a free will choice.
Agreed, that was it, not trying to make a major point here. It's complete surrender though, that much I'm sure of.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,938
25,358
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,749,117.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
But your contradicting verse 12.

“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,”
‭‭John 1:12

Let’s examine the Greek definitions of the words received and right.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

received

G2983


G2983


Lemma:

λαμβάνω


Transliteration:

lambánō


Pronounce:

lam-ban'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to take a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it

1) to take up a thing to be carried

2) to take upon one's self b) to take in order to carry away

1) without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away c) to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own

1) to claim, procure, for one's self a) to associate with one's self as companion, attendant

2) of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend

3) to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud

4) to take to one's self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one's self

5) catch at, reach after, strive to obtain

6) to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute) d) to take

1) to admit, receive

2) to receive what is offered

3) not to refuse or reject

4) to receive a person, give him access to one's self, a) to regard any one's power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something e) to take, to choose, select f) to take beginning, to prove anything, to make a trial of, to experience

2) to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back


The definition of the Greek word lambánō does not give any indication that the one who received is given something against his will. The definition means something that is taken or accepted. Now let’s examine the definition of the Greek word for “right or authority”.


But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

power

G1849


G1849


Lemma:

ἐξουσία


Transliteration:

exousía


Pronounce:

ex-oo-see'-ah


Part of Speech:

Noun Feminine


Language:

greek


Description:

1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases a) leave or permission

2) physical and mental power a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises

3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)

4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed) a) universally

1) authority over mankind b) specifically

1) the power of judicial decisions

2) of authority to manage domestic affairs c) metonymically

1) a thing subject to authority or rule a) jurisdiction

2) one who possesses authority a) a ruler, a human magistrate b) the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates d) a sign of the husband's authority over his wife

1) the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself e) the sign of regal authority, a crown

Again those who receive are given the power or liberty of choice. Nothing in this definition indicates the one receiving is becoming a child of God without his own choice or acceptance.

So are you trying to say that verse 13 is saying children of God are not born of God by their own choice after verse 12 just told us they make the choice? Verse 13 is saying they are born not of the desires of blood or man they are born of God’s desire. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 support God’s desire that all men would repent and be saved and is relevant to the discussion as evidence of God’s desire that all should be saved but by man’s own choice he will either stand or fall.
I didn’t read most of that.

The choice to receive Him is free. But it’s because God regenerated them first. So it’s ultimately the will of God that they receive Christ. You can’t pit the two verses against each other.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hammster

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,938
25,358
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,749,117.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Lol what’s the point of studying the Bible if you let someone else tell you what it means? The very reason I began studying the Bible is because I was sick and tired of people telling me what it says. There’s too many conflicting opinions. The only way to know for sure is to study it for yourself.
Is it okay for you to tell us what it means?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hammster

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,938
25,358
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,749,117.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
People condemn themselves by not accepting the love of God.
Exactly how does that work? In Matthew chapters 7 and 25 it sure looks like Christ is doing the condemning.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,938
25,358
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,749,117.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Yes, Jesus said he could send his angels to liberate him if he wanted. Nothing of that implies God controlling any of their actions.
Was the crucifixion of an innocent man sinful?
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,879
7,468
Dallas
✟904,394.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I didn’t read most of that.

The choice to receive Him is free. But it’s because God regenerated them first. So it’s ultimately the will of God that they receive Christ. You can’t pit the two verses against each other.

I’m not pitting them against each other. I gave an explanation of how verse 13 does not contradict verse 12. Your basically saying God granted them grace so they could receive grace. That’s a contradiction in terms.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,879
7,468
Dallas
✟904,394.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Exactly how does that work? In Matthew chapters 7 and 25 it sure looks like Christ is doing the condemning.

Jesus’ condemnation is not a random choosing. Jesus ONLY condemns those who do not abide in Him either by their actions or by their heart’s intentions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Not David
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hammster

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,938
25,358
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,749,117.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I’m not pitting them against each other. I gave an explanation of how verse 13 does not contradict verse 12. Your basically saying God granted them grace so they could receive grace. That’s a contradiction in terms.
I never said God granted grace. That doesn’t even make sense.

God’s grace is the new birth. The fruit of that birth is faith. And it’s through faith we are justified.
 
Upvote 0