Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

[Kenny'sID]

'Where are these people (anywhere??) that think they are earning their salvation on their own without Christ, by their own works, without Christ?'

I've confronted them with the same question. They consistently speak of "Works Based", "Salvation by works alone", and they very often leave off the term faith, and it's just another deceitful trick that makes it appear we are salvation by works/obedience only oriented.

The fact is I've never once seen anyone claim works alone for salvation. They can make the deceitful remarks, for one, that's what it takes to convince others of an untruth, plus with the "do as we want" way of thinking, being deceitful towards others is not a concern.

I meant to add that when confronted about leaving the faith off and only mentioning works when referring to their adversary, they just don't reply....they know it's wrong.

 

[Kenny'sID]

That's not different levels of saving faith. Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost. That is where the line is drawn in the sand on whether or not we have the right kind of faith that saves.

LOL The disagreement was about amount of faith/works and you've now changed the argument to "trust" and pretend it's the same one we were discussing all along...tricky, and, yep, deceitful.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You continue to put the fruit on the disciples when Christ says He is the source of the fruit. The branch is cut off for not abiding. It is not cut off for not producing fruit. Verse 6 again is quite clear.

So abide boldly my friend is the motto below my avatar. Has been for a long time here.

John chapters 16 and 17 show how this is possible.

You forgot verse 2

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-2‬

I took the liberty of providing the definition of the Greek word used for “takes away” shown below. Notice the highlighted portion in bold letters refers to something that is attached. The branch is attached to the vine. Being removed or taken away from Christ does not result in salvation.

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

away


G142


Lemma:

αἴρω


Transliteration:

aírō


Pronounce:

ah'-ee-ro


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease


Grammar:

a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare נָשָׂא) to expiate sin:--away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

 

[redleghunter]

Faith is a work.

Actually even the Catholic Church says faith is a gift.

 

[Cis.jd]

What makes some believers grow faster than others and mature in Christ faster than others?

hmm. You got me there, i don't know if i have an answer to that! Maybe you can enlighten me on how I can tell if someone actually grew or matured in Christ faster than someone else? For example, how can I I know who is the better believer between Redleghunter and Gilbert Deya?

Are you serious?

Yes, so now tell me why you don't believe Hitler or any of the Nazi's had the same faith.. also Adolf Eichmann said "i did this all for God" before he was executed. What is the difference between your faith and his especially since the end result is supposed to be the same?

It's all right and in James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10). My tree analogy is spot on. A living tree produces fruit and not the other way around, just as a living faith produces works and not the other way around. You seem to ignore the word (says-claims) to have faith in James 2:14 and read it as if this hypothetical person actually has authentic faith. This remains your stumbling block.

Your tree analogy is poor because if a tree that is supposed to give fruit is incapable of it (or bad fruit), then it's useless and will be taken out by the farmer. Your analogy is more on point to my argument.

Also, if you start reading James 2:14 and continue on till the end it does tell you through this "hypothetical person". James even references Abraham as an example, claiming how his righteousness was defined/shown for what he did.

The dead are judged according to their works to determine what? In Matthew 23:14, we see Jesus rebuking the scribes and Pharisees for devouring widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore they will receive greater condemnation.

For believers, works will be judged to determine rewards and loss of rewards, not salvation or loss of salvation. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

They are being judged to determine if they are going to be saved or thrown in the lake of fire (v15). The dead were judged according to their works as recorded in the books. I don't see why you are trying use Matt 23:14 to answer that.

Who said these many people had faith in Jesus? Mental assent belief joined with trusting in works for salvation is not saving faith. Jesus NEVER knew these many people which means they were NEVER saved and we are saved through faith. Do the math.

That verse says so. that is why you see those people going "lord lord, have we not prophesied your name and in your name cast out demons.. (Mathew 7:22)" in short, they where saying "we had faith"... his rejection of them was based on their works (you workers of lawlessness!’).

 

[Yarddog]

Well Paul says different in multiple epistles.

We are justified apart from works. If you are making a stipulation within the Mosaic Law then let’s hear it.

Paul speaks against attempting justification by "works of the Law". Faith apart from the Law does not mean faith alone, unless your definition of faith means doing the works which Jesus called believers to follow.

 

[Yarddog]

Actually even the Catholic Church says faith is a gift.

I didn't say that it wasn't a gift but faith is still a work.

 

[redleghunter]

Please provide a Scripture that teaches that faith unto salvation is a gift of God.

And do not think to quote Ephesians 2:8-9

Ephesians 2 (WEB) Bolding mine… 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, that no one would boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.

This particular Ephesians Scripture flatly declares that saving grace is “through faith (Eph 2:8).”

The portion of these verses that is a stumbling point is:

“ – and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast.” (Eph 2:5)

Many are confused about what “this” is referring to that is the “gift of God, and not of works.”

Is “this” referring back to the “for it is by grace you have been saved”?

Or is “this” referring to ‘grace’ and “through faith”?

Or is “this” referring only to “through faith”?

Grammar indicates that:

• “For it is by grace you have been saved” is the subject
• “through faith” is the modifier of the subject, in that; “faith” is the agent by which ‘God’s grace onto salvation’ (subject) is received. “through” is the verb.

Since “by grace are you saved“ is the subject of the paragraph, then in the 2nd sentence (verse 9) “this” would seem to be referring back to the subject (“by grace are you saved“), and not the modifier of the subject (“through faith”) in the previous sentence. Calvinists argue that the whole previous sentence is referred to in “this.”

To undeniably prove or disprove if verse 9 is referring specifically to the “by grace are you saved” (the subject in verse 8) we have to search other Scriptures to see if any Scriptures ever teach that:

• faith is a product of God’s saving grace.
• faith onto salvation is ever taught to be a gift of God.
• faith onto salvation is ever taught to be a work.

Is faith onto salvation an act of God’s grace?

Scripturally, God’s saving grace and mercy are received only by faith just as we read from Scripture itself. Clear examples are: Ephesian 2:8; Romans 1:16-17; Romans 5:1-2. See also: Heb 11; John 3:14-18; 1 Pet 1:4-9.

Is faith unto salvation a gift?

No Scripture states or teaches that faith onto salvation is a gift of God. Some ‘scholars’ object, citing “1 Corinthians 12:9” and “Romans 12:3-8.” However, these Scriptures are discussing the gifts of the Spirit and the faith to carry out specific gifts - to those already saved.

Scripture repeatedly teaches that “Gift” refers to God’s saving grace – God graciously accrediting righteousness to those of faith. This “Gift” of grace is righteousness, and is only receive by faith.

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV) Bolding mine… 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 4:4-5 (just quoted) teaches that we receive God’s Gift (being accredited righteousness) by Faith. See also: Romans 5:17. Faith itself is not the gift.

The “Gift of God” is God graciously imputing His righteousness to those who believe in Jesus.

Romans 3:22-24
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Revelation 22:17
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” He who hears, let him say, “Come!” He who is thirsty, let him come. He who desires, let him take the water of life freely.

Regeneration of the indwelling Spirit only by faith...

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine… 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Let’s review another Scripture. . .

Romans 6 (WEB) Bolding mine… 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The “gift of God” refers to “eternal life.” We only receive God’s gracious gift of eternal life though faith in Christ Jesus according to every Scripture in the Bible, in context. Examples were given.

Considering the evidence, we must conclude that the second sentence of Ephesians 2:8-9 “this is not of yourselves but is the gift of God – not of works” must be referring back to the subject “By grace are you saved,” which is the gift of God, not of works. This is what Scripture actually teaches in context.

Is Faith a Work?
Let’s go a step further, and show conclusively whether faith onto salvation is ever taught to be a “work” in Scripture.

Romans 3:27-28 (WEB) Bolding mine… 27 Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 We maintain therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV) Bolding mine… 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 9:30-33 (WEB) Bolding mine… 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who didn’t follow after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith; 31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, didn’t arrive at the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they didn’t seek it by faith, but as it were by works of the law. They stumbled over the stumbling stone; 33 even as it is written,
“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and a rock of offense; and no one who believes in him will be disappointed.”

Galatians 2:15-16 (WEB) Bolding mine… 15 We, being Jews by nature, and not Gentile sinners, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

Clearly then, if we review the context of Scripture, faith is contrasted to, or the opposite of, works according to the inspired Word of God.

Scripture itself teaches us, then, that:
faith is not by God’s grace
faith is not God’s gift
faith is not a work

Rather, we gain access to the gift of saving grace (not by works) through faith in Christ Jesus - Romans 5:1-2.

So in Ephesians 2:9 we read as follows:

• “this is not of yourselves,
• it is the gift of God
• - not of works lest any man should boast”

It’s all referring back to the subject in Ephesians 2:8, which is:

“By grace are you have been saved” (the gift and work of God).

Why? . . . because

• Faith is not by grace.
• Faith is not a gift
• Faith is not a work.

Rather, Scripture only refers to:

• Salvation that is by God’s Grace.
• Salvation that is the Gift of God
• Salvation that is the work of God

God Gracious Gift of Salvation – the regenerative work of God –

*is receive by Faith (Romans 5:1-3)
*is kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:4-5)
*The end result of your faith is your salvation (1Peter 1:9)

What about Ephesians 2:10?

Ephesians 2:10 (WEB) states: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.

The Christian is “created in Christ” by the Spirit we receive by faith:

Ephesians 1 (NIV)
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) Bolding mine
38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.”
39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

The “good works” God prepared for us to do is only accomplished when, by faith, we obey that same Spirit we received by faith.

Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Galatians 6:8 (WEB) 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Galatians 5 (WEB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Therefore, regeneration is God’s work in those who, by faith, obey His Spirit that indwells the believer. This is regeneration – only by faith.

To do the good works that God created us for, we must, by faith, be in Christ, which is to be obedient to His Spirit who lives in us by faith to be saved. We saw the Scriptures. And that is why we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling (living by God’s Spirit in us). By so doing, God is working out His will in our lives.

Philippians 2 (WEB)
12 So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

Paul is not teaching a works salvation here; but rather, Paul is establishing that a Bible faith in Christ means we are now disciples of Christ, living by His Spirit. . . “19 Go, and make disciples of all nations teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” (Matthew 28:19). We are dead to the old life and alive in Christ.

To be created in Christ is salvation, which is God’s regenerative work from sin and death – only in those who faithfully walk by God’s Spirit whom they receive by faith. As we saw by Scripture, God’s gift of saving grace is only accessed by faith. This begins the New Life in the Spirit. The end result of your faith is your salvation.

If faith is not the gift and you attribute “not of yourselves” to grace that would mean Paul is teaching we cannot boast Grace is not of ourselves. Makes absolutely no sense as Ephesians 2 already explained God’s action of saving us through Christ.

 

[redleghunter]

I didn't say that it wasn't a gift but faith is still a work.

Work in what way. I agree we are not comatose in faith. As Abraham believed God and it was reckoned as righteousness, he still picked up camp and moved to the Promised Land.

 

[ripple the car]

Assurance of Salvation? | Catholic Answers

 

[Yarddog]

You are confusing the essence of faith with the evidence or fruit of faith.

No, I'm not. People just seem to confuse what a work is and the many different kinds. The word isn't

So what kind of work is faith

It is the work of God's Holy Spirit. Man cannot begin the believe without this work. Nothing that we do on our own works. The only real works that lead to salvation are works of God's Spirit within man. These works must be there.

 

[Cis.jd]

As Abraham believed God and it was reckoned as righteousness, he still picked up camp and moved to the Promised Land.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
- James 2:20-24

edit: had to change to NIV because the translations sounds more appropriate. sadly, i know that no matter how straight-forward this verse is, there will still be creative writing trying to change it's context.

 

[redleghunter]

How much faith does it take?

That of a mustard seed.

 

[Danthemailman]

Your mistaken brother.

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

He who abides in Me bears much fruit. Not bore much fruit. Abide means to remain. We are not remaining in Him if we are not continuously producing fruit.

“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:16‬

No mistake. I already summed it up for you in posts #223 and #229. AT Robertson nailed it!

 

[Danthemailman]

LOL The disagreement was about amount of faith/works and you've now changed the argument to "trust" and pretend it's the same one we were discussing all along...tricky, and, yep, deceitful.

No trickery or deceit on my part. I've been straightforward with you the whole time. Faith in Christ for salvation is trusting in Christ for salvation. Trusting 100% in Christ for salvation to be exact. Not hard to understand. Just hard for people who trust in works for salvation to ACCEPT.

 

[Danthemailman]

No trickery or deceit on my part. I've been straightforward with you the whole time. Faith in Christ for salvation is trusting in Christ for salvation. Trusting 100% in Christ for salvation to be exact. Not hard to understand. Just hard for people who trust in works for salvation to ACCEPT.

 

[Yarddog]

Work in what way. I agree we are not comatose in faith. As Abraham believed God and it was reckoned as righteousness, he still picked up camp and moved to the Promised Land.

And Abraham's works to receive God's promise weren't accomplished until he obeyed God's command to sacrifice Isaac.

Genesis 22
12 He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing * to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." 16 and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because * you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son,
17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore *; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.
18 "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because * you have obeyed My voice."

Abraham was granted righteousness through believing but there was still works to do. None of which could have been accomplished without God's Spirit to lead him.

 

[redleghunter]

Good point. The more context we can get from Paul's entire letter to the Romans, the better understanding we will have from the context.

You wrote:
Righteousness of God through Jesus Christ which gives us our standing before a Holy God.

My Response:
Yes, what you say is true, but is only part of the context of what Paul taught here about imputed righteousness. Paul repeatedly states that this righteousness is only received by faith (Romans 1:17; Romans 3:22; Romans 4:3-5; Romans 4:9-13; Romans 4:24)

Now read Romans 6, which applies righteousness that is by faith in real time in the Christian life, which Baptism represents - the dying (repentance) from the old life, and rising to a New Life in obedience to Christ Jesus - a slave of righeousness. ... Set free from sin to follow Christ.

Romans 7 teaches that we cannot attain this righteousness by the works of the Law, or by the flesh.

Romans 8 teaches that when we are in Christ (by faith) means we are now obedient to the Spirit who helps us, so that we may have the power to live out the New Life - which is salvation from sin and death.

Christ Jesus only imputes His perfect righteousness to those, who by faith, repent and live in obedience to Him, and His Spirit. In other words, a true follower of Christ is no longer controlled by sin, and no longer living in sin. But if we should sin in weakness, Christ's perfect righteousness is imputed to us.

I see you slipped in there obedience before faith. How does one live obedient to Christ if they are not a new creation.

So my point stands. You are trying to interpret Romans 1-5 with Romans 6-8.

That’s not how Paul presents his dissertation and why chapters 1-5 come before the remainder of the epistle.

 

[redleghunter]

I continue to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

Very important. If not all is done is pit verses against verses creating one’s own contradiction.

 

[redleghunter]

You forgot verse 2

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-2‬

I took the liberty of providing the definition of the Greek word used for “takes away” shown below. Notice the highlighted portion in bold letters refers to something that is attached. The branch is attached to the vine. Being removed or taken away from Christ does not result in salvation.

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

away


G142


Lemma:

αἴρω


Transliteration:

aírō


Pronounce:

ah'-ee-ro


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease


Grammar:

a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare נָשָׂא) to expiate sin:--away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

Did that branch abide in Christ? No.