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How old is the universe...? And, How big is the universe...? Discussion...?

dad

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.. and yet you appear to continually reject the notion that both the laws of Physics and time itself are both concepts invented by human minds which, (surprise, surprise ..), happen to reside locally on something also named (by human minds) as planet Earth and not a property of something which exists as some 'thing' independently from the minds perceiving these things.
Time was no more invented by man than aging, or orbits of earth around the sun, or gravity! You can believe there is no gravity, but when you jump off a tall building, you will find out there is.

A lady can pretend there is in aging, but after 90 years, I thin we would all see she was wrong. God mentioned time in the creation, so time is no invention of man.
All measurements of the distant universe are performed by human minds. Have you ever stopped to consider why your 'fishbowl' would appear to relocate itself wherever there is a human mind making an observation of either an instrument (visual sense), ideas/concepts (perceptual sense), hearing (auditory sense), touching, etc? And that's regardless of where that particular mind is physically located in the universe?
The rules God set up here where man lives are for man, and not made by man. Yes, there are reasons sinful fallen man lives in a temporary, limited world. None of those reasons has to do with man inventing time and forces and laws and nature etc. Utterly ridiculous.
The function of time is a fundamental part of the operating system of the human mind. It is a fundamental needed by it, in order to make sense of what we perceive, and if we perceive something orginating from deep space, time is automatically applied by the mind doing the perceiving.
Yeah yeah, but regardless of what goes on in your mind, time exists, and the world is really here and the sun...etc.

It is therefore a constant behind all observations. The idea that time is a property of something which exists 'out there' ie: beyond our minds in the distant universe, is nothing more than a convenient notion adopted for the purposes of simplifying discussions leading towards the ultimate goal making sense of some observation.
Just because man takes time to do things does not mean man created time!!!
 
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DennisTate

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You know that at the edges of the observable universe light speed is greater...because..?

Is it because our part of the universe is moving away from that part of the universe???
 
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SelfSim

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Time was no more invented by man than aging, or orbits of earth around the sun, or gravity!
You just don't get it!

I said that "both the laws of Physics and time itself are both concepts invented by human minds". You then immediately decided that time was some kind of object floating around in space waiting for humans to discover. This is because you are stuck in a belief system which relies entirely on the unevidenced beliefs inherent in miracles of philosophical Realism.

Demonstrate how any concept comes about in the absence of a human mind to contemplate it in the first place?!

For goodness sake have you ever even looked up the definition?
Never mind, I have, I quote the very first one I came across:

Dictionary said:
concept
/ˈkɒnsɛpt/
noun
an abstract idea.
"structuralism is a difficult concept"
synonyms: idea, notion, conception, abstraction, conceptualization;
Show me how an 'idea, notion, abstraction', etc, can happen without a human mind!

Show me your evidence!

dad said:
You can believe there is no gravity, but when you jump off a tall building, you will find out there is.
Yep .. and that's exactly what we mean (and visualise) when we use the word 'gravity'. Ie: 'Gravity' is a concept by which we mean (roughly) you'll end up in a mess when you jump off a tall building!

I'm not saying that anyone's mind invented gravity. I'm saying that minds invented all the various things we mean (or visualise) when we use the word.

Do ya get it yet?

dad said:
God mentioned time in the creation, so time is no invention of man.
.. and God had/has a mind very similar to human minds too .. yes? Otherwise, we wouldn't have a clue about what he meant by the words he supposedly said, yes?

dad said:
The rules God set up here where man lives are for man, and not made by man. Yes, there are reasons sinful fallen man lives in a temporary, limited world. None of those reasons has to do with man inventing time and forces and laws and nature etc. Utterly ridiculous.
Again, I never said man invented time and forces .. human minds gave the meaning (conferred the concept) on those terms, is what I said.

dad said:
Yeah yeah, but regardless of what goes on in your mind, time exists, and the world is really here and the sun...etc.
'World' and 'the sun' are also concepts in invented by human minds .. (Otherwise, I wouldn't have a clue what you mean by them in that sentence!)

dad said:
Just because man takes time to do things does not mean man created time!!!
Can you restate that sentence without invoking the concept of 'time' (using your own mind) and then immediately denying that such concepts originate from a human mind?
 
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dad

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Is it because our part of the universe is moving away from that part of the universe???

Well, if they don't really know what space itself really is and do not know if time itself exists the same out there, the ways we determine that the universe is expanded lose relevance. The question becomes 'what could redshifted light out there mean'?
 
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dad

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You just don't get it!

I said that "both the laws of Physics and time itself are both concepts invented by human minds". You then immediately decided that time was some kind of object floating around in space waiting for humans to discover. This is because you are stuck in a belief system which relies entirely on the unevidenced beliefs inherent in miracles of philosophical Realism.
The human mind does not determine orbits of planetary bodies. Do you think seasons and orbits and radioactive decay times and tree ring growth etc...would all cease to exist if all humans took a vacation from earth to the moon?
Demonstrate how any concept comes about in the absence of a human mind to contemplate it in the first place?!
Gravity and light are not concepts. The flu is not a concept. The sun is not a concept. Humans may be real good at cluing in to what God created and what is around us, but that does not mean all things are some sort of weird invented internal concepts of the human mind.

Show me how an 'idea, notion, abstraction', etc, can happen without a human mind!
Show us how the sun is any one of those things? Ask a bird if there is a sun!

Yep .. and that's exactly what we mean (and visualise) when we use the word 'gravity'. Ie: 'Gravity' is a concept by which we mean (roughly) you'll end up in a mess when you jump off a tall building!
A squirrel that falls from a high wire might disagree. A snake in the claws of an eagle about to be dropped on rocks far below might disagree.
I'm not saying that anyone's mind invented gravity. I'm saying that minds invented all the various things we mean (or visualise) when we use the word.
Satan tried to get Jesus to jump from a high tower. Jesus mentioned sparrows fall to the ground when they die. It seems that humans have no monopoly over gravity. I suggest an over inflated ego may cause some confusion as to the role of little man kind in things!

.. and God had/has a mind very similar to human minds too .. yes? Otherwise, we wouldn't have a clue about what he meant by the words he supposedly said, yes?

John the Baptist was in the womb when he first 'prophesied' and reacted to Jesus being near. One would hardly blame his little undeveloped brain...would one?
Again, I never said man invented time and forces .. human minds gave the meaning (conferred the concept) on those terms, is what I said.
The meaning of gravity is basically that we fall down go boom.


'World' and 'the sun' are also concepts in invented by human minds .. (Otherwise, I wouldn't have a clue what you mean by them in that sentence!)
Regardless of whether you had any clue or not, a spacecraft taking pictures of earth would render the same images!
Can you restate that sentence without invoking the concept of 'time' (using your own mind) and then immediately denying that such concepts originate from a human mind?

Forget your concept of time since science does not so much as know what time is anyhow! Yet birds migrate at just the right times, trees lose their leaves, the day and night times come on cue...etc.
 
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SelfSim

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dad said:
SelfSim said:
Show me how an 'idea, notion, abstraction', etc, can happen without a human mind!
Show us how the sun is any one of those things?
I'm going to just discuss this one question of yours because it demonstrates the same misconception at the heart of all your other nonsensical rantings.

Let's just take a look at the history of what "Sun" has meant over recorded history.
Here is the link from which I draw the relevant historical summary (from Wiki - the Sun). I'll include the hyperlinks in the text because each one of these represents yet another abstraction (or concept) having its own entire page dedicated to explaining it.

So "the Sun" has carried a multitude of meanings all the way from deities;
Solar deities play a major role in many world religions and mythologies. The ancient Sumerians believed that the sun was Utu, the god of justice and twin brother of Inanna, the Queen of Heaven, who was identified as the planet Venus. Later, Utu was identified with the East Semitic god Shamash. Utu was regarded as a helper-deity, who aided those in distress, and, in iconography, he is usually portrayed with a long beard and clutching a saw, which represented his role as the dispenser of justice.
up to and including meanings covering concepts which would have been gibberish to, (and outright rejected by), those who had it mean it was a fixed and immutable religious deity:
The Sun is the star at the center of the Solar System. It is a nearly perfect sphere of hot plasma, with internal convective motion that generates a magnetic field via a dynamo process
Now, you infer that there is something about "the Sun" which is not a concept, eh?

So explain why the meaning for human minds conveyed by the phrase "the Sun" can change as much as it has, (as is clearly demonstrated in the quotes above), if it always was the fixed and immutable clear-cut 'thing' ('object'?) you seem to think it is.
Do this by not using any human invented concepts.

PS: I predict you will fail and then resort to unsupported rants and fallacy by repeated assertions.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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What on Earth are you babbling on about?
Is English not your first language?
Your comprehension skills are so profoundly missing it seems to amount to basic errors in translation.
Your response has absolutely nothing to do with Marmet’s paper which formed the basis of my quote.
It had everything to do with it.... You still can't bring yourself to accept that energetic neutral atoms are not neutral....

Cant give up your pseudoscientific beliefs in neutrality....

Once again what are you babbling on about?
What is Hubble being blamed for given that Lemaitre and Hubble are being equal credit for Hubble’s Law.
Taking me out of context to the point of inventing statements I never made is dishonest.
There you go again, continuing to blame Hubble for something he didn't even believe in.

Let's try this again, see if you can keep up...

"Hubble believed that his count data gave a more reasonable result concerning spatial curvature if the redshift correction was made assuming no recession. To the very end of his writings he maintained this position, favouring (or at the very least keeping open) the model where no true expansion exists, and therefore that the redshift "represents a hitherto unrecognized principle of nature."

Hubble did not believe in expansion, by crediting him with its discovery you are blaming him for that pseudoscience..... Hubble believed there was another as then yet undiscovered cause that better explained his count data and would give a more reasonable result concerning spatial curvature.

What, if you didn't believe in something you think you would appreciated being blamed for it after your death when you were not there to defend your viewpoint?????

You are an inane poster and even more inept at lying as your dishonesty is so transparent.
In this case it is engaging in word salad in a desperate attempt to convey comprehension when it is clearly obvious you are way out of your depth.
I can call your bluff by asking how QM and QED leads to your conclusion but history will show the deafening sound of crickets will prevail.
Last and final warning. Keep that up and, never mind, your a child, I should expect nothing less....

A New Non-Doppler Redshift

Bremsstrahlung - Wikipedia

Not that I expect you to understand either of them, which it is clear you do not.....

In the past you associated deceleration radiation with Bremmstrahlung which produces continuous electromagnetic radiation by decelerating a charge (Physics101) and has nothing to do with blackbody radiation as does your QM/QED word salad.
You can’t even get your inane stories right from thread to thread.
Shows how much you understand...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=2ahUKEwjA2dKSkpHfAhXn3YMKHYZPDHsQFjADegQIBBAC&url=https://www.springer.com/cda/content/document/cda_downloaddocument/9783319006116-c2.pdf?SGWID=0-0-45-1398306-p175157874&usg=AOvVaw3O6j5XXBCy-N7sBuvA8bEG

mechanism of continuum spectrum

"Radiation is produced via various processes (radiation processes). Emission mechanism of continuum radiation includes blackbody radiation, thermal bremsstrahlung, synchrotron radiation, and Compton scattering."

https://www.mrao.cam.ac.uk/~kjbg1/lectures/lect3.pdf

https://apatruno.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/lecture52.pdf

"The smaller the frequencies, the larger the optical depth. This means that radiation is absorbed more and more before leaving the system. But this is precisely what a blackbody is! So at low frequencies we expect a blackbody like spectrum."

Nothing more about your lack of knowledge needs to be said.....

Once again you are taking me out of context.
The CMB represents the transition stage when plasma goes from being opaque to transparent about 300,000 years after the BB.
Photons are scattered in the plasma.
To us the observer, the CMB is the surface of last scattering.
Since the CMB in our fame of reference has no optical depth the photons are being scattered at the very nearly the same temperature since scattering is only occurring at the surface, hence the CMB is a blackbody with a temperature of around 3000K in its rest frame.
In our frame of reference after taking expansion into account the photons are redshifted into the microwave range and the CMB has a blackbody temperature of 2.7K.

No it doesn't. See above. It represents the thermal radiation given off by the deceleration of the solar wind......

"The smaller the frequencies, the larger the optical depth. This means that radiation is absorbed more and more before leaving the system. But this is precisely what a blackbody is! So at low frequencies we expect a blackbody like spectrum."

Another lie as a simple word search indicates you have never used the term in this thread until now.
Strawman as a simple search would have showed you its context in other threads....

Search Results | Christian Forums

But a careful person would have bothered to read the post that started this whole conversation and realize the term heliosphere was used which is synonomous with heliopause...

How old is the universe...? And, How big is the universe...? Discussion...?


Only an idiot would use the photosphere as a reference.
The correct reference is the solar corona where the solar wind originates and has a temperature of around 2 million K.
When the solar wind reaches the Earth’s neighbourhood it drops to around 1.5 million K.
The rapid cooling to 500,000K at the heliopause is due to the collision of the solar wind with the interstellar medium.
There was no collisions or veering of the solar wind at all. Every single model they had of the heliopshere or heliopause was falsified. So which falsified model are you relying on????

We have already discussed your continuing to use falsified models....

How old is the universe...? And, How big is the universe...? Discussion...?

"What we are seeing in these maps does not match with any of the previous theoretical models of this region."

Once again you don’t seem to understand simple English, the average 500,000K value is not something made up but based on Voyager and Ibex measurements.
Neither do you, what part of that ribbon of "energetic neutral atoms" did you not understand????

In terms of sheer stupidity this one is up there with your “the surface of a balloon is one dimensional”.
If your scenario was true only a small area of the CMB would be scanned; the entire sky is scanned.
This is how Planck scanned the sky:
No, really? The entire sky? Which is why the deceleration of the solar wind is in a 360 degree sphere around the earth. And while you scan forward away from the sun it is blue shifted and while you scan backwards away from the sun it is red shifted. Which is why the mad shows a curved dividing line.

CMB shift.jpg


If it was due to our galaxies motion, this is not the image that would be produced. Also no other spectra in any direction beyond the local cluster is blue shifted...

A person of minimal critical thinking skills might ask themselves the question if the hot gas surrounding our galaxy accounts for the missing dark matter then why is dark matter still necessary?
I don't know, why aren't you calculating all that new mass discovered? remember, it wasn't discovered until AFTER Dark matter was proposed.... Don't you think that should at least change your calculations since there is now twice as much mass as the galaxy now to adjust the parameters with? Yes, a person with critical thinking skills would ask himself that. Apparently that excludes you.....


First of all is the missing Baryon problem for visible matter which was solved by the discovery of the hot gas including hot intergalactic gas in galaxy clusters.
This only applies to the 5% of visible matter where as dark matter is 25%.
You got twice as much mass as the galaxy itself. That is far more than your petty 25%, plus there you go again, ignoring the electromagnetic forces in plasma.....

Secondly is the rotation curve itself where the dark matter inside the orbits of the outer stars that affects the rotation curve rather than dark matter halo extending beyond the disk.
The hot gas is outside the disk and even if part of it resides inside the disk the density is far too low to affect the rotation curve.

You really do ignore everything you don't want to hear don't you?

Yes, only someone dense would believe we arent immersed in this halo.....

Halo.jpg


And let's not forget that "dust" (read plasma here) that was 30 times more abundant than they believed....

Ulysses (spacecraft) - Wikipedia

"Data provided by Ulysses led to the discovery that dust coming into the Solar System from deep space was 30 times more abundant than previously expected"

So I'll ask again, and you will continue to ignore it, if you can't get an accurate estimate of the amount of matter coming into the solar system (off by a factor of 30) until you got a probe up to study it, what makes you think their estimates of matter further away is any more correct???????

Faith despite direct falsification of what they believed????

This is right next door cosmologically speaking and they couldnt get even anywhere close to the reality. And you actually think that despite every single model they had being wrong, and being off by a factor of 30, they got it right where they can't even get direct measurements?????

Faith indeed......
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Science's 'time' is made useful by using it as a fundamental dimension of the universe. This is done so our minds can make sense of what we perceive (and observe).

But time is not a constant, it is a variable......
 
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ianw16

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It had everything to do with it.... You still can't bring yourself to accept that energetic neutral atoms are not neutral....

Of course they are neutral! Why the hell do you think they are called ENAs? The stupid here is stupefying. Get an education.
 
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ianw16

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And let's not forget that "dust" (read plasma here) that was 30 times more abundant than they believed....

Really? Where is this dust described as being plasma? I think you are lying. Not for the first time.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Of course they are neutral! Why the hell do you think they are called ENAs? The stupid here is stupefying. Get an education.
They are so energetic they are putting out so much radiation they are two to three times brighter than anything else in the sky....

You keep ignoring that letter E for ENERGETIC. Energetic and neutral do not belong in the same sentence....

The stupidity is someone that would believe an atom putting out so much radiation it is two to three times brighter than anything else in the sky is a neutral atom... That would be pure stupidity and that person could be said to have NO EDUCATION.

Is insults all you got? I can do that too and am much better at it than you since you can't comprehend that an atom putting out so much energy it outshines everything else in the sky is NOT neutral......

Next you'll be trying to tell me the hydrogen in the sun is neutral.....
 
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ianw16

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No it doesn't. See above. It represents the thermal radiation given off by the deceleration of the solar wind......

Nope, and not a single scientist is saying it is. Only neo-Velikovskian loons who believe Earth used to orbit Saturn! Lol.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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How can you warn anybody about anything when you are demonstrably scientifically illiterate?

Says the person that thinks energetic and neutral go together in a sentence. So you'll excuse me if I just ignore your opinions which mean nothing in light of that viewpoint....
 
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ianw16

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Says the person that thinks energetic and neutral go together in a sentence. So you'll excuse me if I just ignore your opinions which mean nothing in light of that viewpoint....

Word of advice; stay away from science - you are rubbish at it, as pointed out.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Nope, and not a single scientist is saying it is. Only neo-Velikovskian loons who believe Earth used to orbit Saturn! Lol.

I know, because they have their pet theories that have all been falsified. they can't even get their theories correct at the edge of the solar system, let alone millions of light years away. And their sycophant followers give them tax dollars to keep the fantasy alive..... you are out of your league. When people start off with insults you know you have already won the argument, for that's all they have.....
 
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ianw16

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Says the person that thinks energetic and neutral go together in a sentence. So you'll excuse me if I just ignore your opinions which mean nothing in light of that viewpoint....

Do you know what ro-vibrational lines are, woo boy? Look it up. Learn something. This is like discussing QM with a chimp.
 
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ianw16

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I know, because they have their pet theories that have all been falsified. they can't even get their theories correct at the edge of the solar system, let alone millions of light years away. And their sycophant followers give them tax dollars to keep the fantasy alive..... you are out of your league. When people start off with insults you know you have already won the argument, for that's all they have.....

No, you are out of your depth, woo boy. As any scientist would tell you. Want to try a physics forum, instead of hiding on here?
 
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ianw16

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I know, because they have their pet theories that have all been falsified. they can't even get their theories correct at the edge of the solar system, let alone millions of light years away.

Really? Where did this happen? And where did the cult of the lightning bolts predict this? Clueless loons, the lot of them. Not an astrophysicist or plasma physicist in sight. Just unqualified loons. Correct?
 
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