James: "The Effectual, Fervent Prayer of the Righteous Man..."

[Steve Petersen]

I can most certainly understand the problem you have with a god that you say worries more about someone's sciatica rather than the lives of Jewish people. What I don't understand is where you got the idea that I thought it was my sciatica this god was more worried about.

I think you quoted someone else and I misread it.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

availeth little.

Ask the six million Jews who were snuffed out by the Nazis.

What? Did God suddenly change his mind about prayer? Maybe he isn't as involved in the affairs of the world as some people think.

God didn't fail to hear anyone's prayers. It's just that He places His Covenants with those who should know OVER and ABOVE their many, individual prayers. We just don't like that part of it, and in our Modern Age, we've misconstrued prayer to be a means of asking God for this and asking God for that, when in all actuality, prayer is an ongoing opportunity to present our humble requests before God to be made right in our hearts so we can DO what it is He wants us to do. But, as it is, we're asking for Health, Wealth, and Safety (and maybe sex) instead.

 

[Steve Petersen]

God didn't fail to hear anyone's prayers. It's just that He places His Covenants with those who should know OVER and ABOVE their many, individual prayers. We just don't like that part of it, and in our Modern Age, we've misconstrued prayer to be a means of asking God for this and asking God for that, when in all actuality, prayer is an ongoing opportunity to present our humble requests before God to be made right in our hearts so we can DO what it is He wants us to do. But, as it is, we're asking for Health, Wealth, and Safety (and maybe sex) instead.

What does his covenant have to do with the Holocaust?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What does his covenant have to do with the Holocaust?

I don't mean to sound condescending, Steve, but have you not read the Old Testament in full? Not that I blame you if you haven't since it's a bit scary, really.

 

[Par5]

"

I am just stating what scripture says.

10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
13 "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
14 "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." - Romans 3:10-18

Scripture says a lot of things including that glowing appraisal of humankind. As I said before, going through life carrying such negativity about your fellow man must be difficult for you. I didn't see many verses that would describe me except the ones about non-belief and righteousness. Righteousness has too much of a connotation to religious behaviour for my liking. I would prefer the word honest instead of righteous. And talking of righteousness, the "None is righteous, no not one" is yet another contradiction that the bible is not supposed to have. Zechariah and his wife Elizabeth were both considered "righteous before God". It wouldn't be too difficult to find other bible verses telling of other "righteous" people.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

"
Scripture says a lot of things including that glowing appraisal of humankind. As I said before, going through life carrying such negativity about your fellow man must be difficult for you. I didn't see many verses that would describe me except the ones about non-belief and righteousness. Righteousness has too much of a connotation to religious behaviour for my liking. I would prefer the word honest instead of righteous. And talking of righteousness, the "None is righteous, no not one" is yet another contradiction that the bible is not supposed to have. Zechariah and his wife Elizabeth were both considered "righteous before God". It wouldn't be too difficult to find other bible verses telling of other "righteous" people.

There are different contexts in which the term righteousness applies, so we see Paul apply the term unrighteousness to "all" on one hand, and then he illustrates where the true possibility of righteousness before God comes from, on the other hand. So, there's no contradiction there.

 

[Hammster]

"
Scripture says a lot of things including that glowing appraisal of humankind. As I said before, going through life carrying such negativity about your fellow man must be difficult for you. I didn't see many verses that would describe me except the ones about non-belief and righteousness. Righteousness has too much of a connotation to religious behaviour for my liking. I would prefer the word honest instead of righteous. And talking of righteousness, the "None is righteous, no not one" is yet another contradiction that the bible is not supposed to have. Zechariah and his wife Elizabeth were both considered "righteous before God". It wouldn't be too difficult to find other bible verses telling of other "righteous" people.

Romans 3 talks about the state of the unbeliever. Believers are righteous in God’s eyes, but not because of us. It’s because of Christ.

“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[bling]

How is it possible for the creature to be more compassionate than his creator? Christians don't seem to want to wrestle with this question. They would rather hand-wave it away.

Is death bad in and of itself?

Death is the way good people get to go home and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff.

Why are you concerned more about the 6 million Jews, than the millions dying every day?

If all those 6 million Jews who truly wanted to go to heaven did go to heaven is their dying in a gas champers that significant?

If people did not die, would that tend to hold some back from making a choice to humbly accept God’s charity and thus they would not fulfill their earthly objective?

Our pending death is a humbling reality which can help us be humble, so is humility needed?

There is an estimated 40 million human slaves today (more than at any other time), so what about their prays?

How do you feel about your own pending death?

 

[Steve Petersen]

I don't mean to sound condescending, Steve, but have you not read the Old Testament in full? Not that I blame you if you haven't since it's a bit scary, really.

Many times. What are you suggesting about the covenant?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Is death bad in and of itself?

Death is the way good people get to go home and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff.

Why are you concerned more about the 6 million Jews, than the millions dying every day?

If all those 6 million Jews who truly wanted to go to heaven did go to heaven is their dying in a gas champers that significant?

If people did not die, would that tend to hold some back from making a choice to humbly accept God’s charity and thus they would not fulfill their earthly objective?

Our pending death is a humbling reality which can help us be humble, so is humility needed?

There is an estimated 40 million human slaves today (more than at any other time), so what about their prays?

How do you feel about your own pending death?

So, why not kill yourself and your children if death is so good? What a preposterous idea!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Many times. What are you suggesting about the covenant?

What I'd suggest wouldn't be something that I'd do lightly, easily, or without actual feelings of heartbreak for all involved. I'm not one of those who is an arm-chair gloater over the misfortunes (or punishments) of those who 'could be' at the receiving end of God's disciplinary measures.

What I'm suggesting about the Old Covenant is that the Blessings and the Curses of the Law were no passing matter; that God wasn't actually joking about it when He established the Old Law for the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews. And without getting to much into the details, I will side with Jesus and His Apostles in how all of the prophetic structures within the Old Covenant would play out for those who refuse the Renewed/New Covenant that is found in Jesus the Messiah. That is to say, in heart-breaking terms------terms which again I don't say lightly or with any ounce of glee as some racists or anti-semitic folks might say it------the Jewish people, if not reconciled to Jesus, leave themselves and have left themselves historically vulnerable to the exact same kinds of discipline today that their ancestors experienced more than once during Old Testament times, up and through the era of the 2nd Temple, and then all the way to today as a part of the 2,000 years since those times.

As for the specificity of the Holocaust, we might also remember that many people of other nations also felt the murderous onslaught of Hitler's forces, with the Russian people taking the lion's share of deaths/casualites in World War II [about 20 million or so?].

World War II casualties of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

So, in just looking at both World Wars 1 and 2 combined, we can all together wonder in awe: "Where was God in all of this?"

 

[Steve Petersen]

What I'd suggest wouldn't be something that I'd do lightly, easily, or without actual feelings of heartbreak for all involved. I'm not one of those who is an arm-chair gloater over the misfortunes (or punishments) of those who 'could be' at the receiving end of God's disciplinary measures.

What I'm suggesting about the Old Covenant is that the Blessings and the Curses of the Law were no passing matter; that God wasn't actually joking about it when He established the Old Law for the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews. And without getting to much into the details, I will side with Jesus and His Apostles in how all of the prophetic structures within the Old Covenant would play out for those who refuse the Renewed/New Covenant that is found in Jesus the Messiah. That is to say, in heart-breaking terms------terms which again I don't say lightly or with any ounce of glee as some racists or anti-semitic folks might say it------the Jewish people, if not reconciled to Jesus, leave themselves and have left themselves historically vulnerable to the exact same kinds of discipline today that their ancestors experiences more than once in Old Testament times, up and through the era of the 2nd Temple, and then all the way along for 2,000 years since those times.

As for the specificity of the Holocaust, we might also remember that many people of other nations also felt the murderous onslaught of Hitler's forces, with the Russian people taking the lion's share of deaths/casualites in World War II [about 20 million or so?].

World War II casualties of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

So, in just looking at both World Wars 1 and 2 combined, we can all together wonder in awe: "Where was God in all of this?"

So in a nutshell, even though they may have lived righteous live, the Jews had to die because they didn't believe in Jesus? And you worship this God?

You also seem to be saying that the Old Covenant is still in effect.

 

[Hammster]

So in a nutshell, even though they may have lived righteous live, the Jews had to die because they didn't believe in Jesus? And you worship this God?

Everyone dies. And a lot of folks before their time, such as it is.

 

[Oncedeceived]

What I'd suggest wouldn't be something that I'd do lightly, easily, or without actual feelings of heartbreak for all involved. I'm not one of those who is an arm-chair gloater over the misfortunes (or punishments) of those who 'could be' at the receiving end of God's disciplinary measures.

What I'm suggesting about the Old Covenant is that the Blessings and the Curses of the Law were no passing matter; that God wasn't actually joking about it when He established the Old Law for the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews. And without getting to much into the details, I will side with Jesus and His Apostles in how all of the prophetic structures within the Old Covenant would play out for those who refuse the Renewed/New Covenant that is found in Jesus the Messiah. That is to say, in heart-breaking terms------terms which again I don't say lightly or with any ounce of glee as some racists or anti-semitic folks might say it------the Jewish people, if not reconciled to Jesus, leave themselves and have left themselves historically vulnerable to the exact same kinds of discipline today that their ancestors experienced more than once during Old Testament times, up and through the era of the 2nd Temple, and then all the way to today as a part of the 2,000 years since those times.

As for the specificity of the Holocaust, we might also remember that many people of other nations also felt the murderous onslaught of Hitler's forces, with the Russian people taking the lion's share of deaths/casualites in World War II [about 20 million or so?].

World War II casualties of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

So, in just looking at both World Wars 1 and 2 combined, we can all together wonder in awe: "Where was God in all of this?"

I would add, and with no gleeful sentiments either, that God is not only a God of love but one of Justice and has the authority for that judgement and its consequences.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Everyone dies. And a lot of folks before their time, such as it is.

Thanks for adding to the discussion.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So in a nutshell, even though they may have lived righteous live, the Jews had to die because they didn't believe in Jesus? And you worship this God?

First off, Steve, I have to disagree with you that 'anyone' is righteous without faith in God, AND as God dispenses His progressive revelation of Himself to Humanity. So, there are NO righteous Jews without Jesus' pardon and reconciliation just as there are NO righteous Gentiles without Jesus' pardon and reconciliation.

And yes, I worship this God who is God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who is also Father of the Christ who is Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, the Son of God, forerunner of God's presence among His People in His Spirit. Yes, I worship unapologetically "this God." I'm sorry to hear if that causes you offense.

 

[Steve Petersen]

First off, Steve, I have to disagree with you that 'anyone' is righteous without faith in God, AND as God dispenses His progressive revelation of Himself to Humanity. So, there are NO righteous Jews without Jesus' pardon and reconciliation just as there are NO righteous Gentiles without Jesus' pardon and reconciliation.

And yes, I worship this God who is God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who is also Father of the Christ who is Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, the Son of God, forerunner of God's presence among His People in His Spirit. Yes, I worship unapologetically "this God." I'm sorry to hear if that causes you offense.

So, the Old Covenant is still in effect?

 

[Par5]

There are different contexts in which the term righteousness applies, so we see Paul apply the term unrighteousness to "all" on one hand, and then he illustrates where the true possibility of righteousness before God comes from, on the other hand. So, there's no contradiction there.

Here we go again. I have lost count of the number of times that Christians, when denying a biblical contradiction exists, say in effect, "Oh, I know that's what it says, but that is not what it means."
I'm not really surprised that you say what you say. Righteousness must be quite a confusing word for you when it crops up in the bible. Look at Lot. He was supposed to be righteous. Wasn't it the fact that he was so that saved him from the destruction of Gomorrah?
He was so righteous that even though his wife had just been turned into a condiment he went and had drunken sex with his two daughters.
I wonder if someone will post and say that it was all the fault of those two wicked daughters, that they got poor old Lot drunk and he didn't know what he was doing?
That's another favourite Christian response to excuse Lot's behaviour.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So in a nutshell, even though they may have lived righteous live, the Jews had to die because they didn't believe in Jesus? And you worship this God?

You also seem to be saying that the Old Covenant is still in effect.

Yes, I believe the Old Covenant is "still in effect," which is not a good thing because since the time of Jesus the Messiah, the New Covenant is also now in effect............

Jesus didn't end the Old Law; He fulfilled its requirements on our behalf. So, if a Jewish person wants to get out from under the implications [i.e. the Curse] of the Old Covenant, he or she really needs to move over into the New Covenant. Of course, in taking stock of both what the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation tell us, becoming a Christian still leaves one open to the ongoing machinations of the Devil, regardless. So, now, it's "Welcome to the Machine!"

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Here we go again. I have lost count of the number of times that Christians, when denying a biblical contradiction exists, say in effect, "Oh, I know that's what it says, but that is not what it means."
I'm not really surprised that you say what you say. Righteousness must be quite a confusing word for you when it crops up in the bible. Look at Lot. He was supposed to be righteous. Wasn't it the fact that he was so that saved him from the destruction of Gomorrah?
He was so righteous that even though his wife had just been turned into a condiment he went and had drunken sex with his two daughters.
I wonder if someone will post and say that it was all the fault of those two wicked daughters, that they got poor old Lot drunk and he didn't know what he was doing?
That's another favourite Christian response to excuse Lot's behaviour.

Well, it sounds to me like you have all of the hermeneutical bases covered since apparently you're well studied and the most expert among us here in this regard. I guess we can just all pack up and sign off of Christian Forums now since you've arrived to set us all straight.